RTVE director speech on Spanish conquest of America

So, some days ago Jose Antonio Sanchez, president of RTVE (Radio y Television Española) had a speech saying that the Spanish conquest couldn't be a genocide because killing aztecs, incas and mayas was like killing Nazis. also because Europe had a much advanced society and they didn't murdered people. Toughs on it
Source: youtube.com/watch?v=0nqYzbwr-zY (I couldn't find it subtitled to english, sorry about that)

oh boy...

/ourguy/

Based

also at one point he just says that those people were savages because they were killing people in the name of their gods.
>mfw he just ignores completely the crusades and spanish inquisition

the spanish were killing in the name of THE God, not false pagan gods, dubmass

The inquisition killed in 300 years less people than the Aztecs in a week. The crusades were totally justified

dude what? Aztecs killed around 200 to 300 a year, The fact that its told that they killed more was part of the spanish "propaganda" to make american civilization look like savages

>Aztecs killed around 200 to 300 a year
Kek

>Spanish conquest couldn't be a genocide because killing aztecs, incas and mayas was like killing Nazis.
Based

that is not true, both sides were savages

leftists believe in the noble savage meme

rightists believe in the civilization meme

both wrong

the truth is the only thing remotely resembling civilization in those times existed in wealthy middle class bubbles in trading cities, savagery was occurring in the slums not far from some morally inclined quaker's doorstep, at the frontier there was no civilization

>both sides were savages
Nope.Only savage apologists say this.

top lad

>We're still having the good v bad, justified v unjustified debate

Please god fuck off. Who cares? It happened. It's over. History is boring with this obsession of politicising and moralising from both the left and the right. Just go back to your own fields.

>History is boring with this obsession of politicising and moralising from both the left and the right. Just go back to your own fields.
The political-moralists you refer to don't even have their own field, as ethics properly belongs to the field of philosophy. Instead they should be exterminated, resentment-fuelled dregs.

The inquisition did not kill that many in the Americas, more people were tortured but lived. The cultural genocide was pretty harsh though, the destruction of many works of art, thousands of books, prohibition of their theatre, their dances and in the case of the Maya of writing in their own script. Not to mention scribes had to be brainwashed in Christian propaganda and works were heavily censored. This is just the Maya region, the same or similar was applied to on a continental scale. The Incas had their quipus burned, which now remain a mystery as to what their translation is. There are documents that also show during the colonial period many abuses by the church ranging from not giving confessions unless they had sex with the priest, the many Indians killed abused during the process of evangelization and those who died buildings their churches and missions. Clergy aside, Cortes himself admits to justifying his conquest in the name of God, he was a religious radical. And much of the Spanish conquest was criticized by the some friars for it's handling of it, but at the same time still went along with it. The Spanish court themselves argued the morality of the conquests in the Americas.

That said, the human sacrifices the Aztecs did a year (about 2-4,000) going by Cortes' estiamtes pales in comparison to the destruction caused by the conquest on a continental scale. And at least the Aztecs let their conquered people continue their culture and left them in peace so long as they gave their annual tribute.

i watched the video but must have missed it, where does he mention the nazis?

he does put the west in a pedestal way too high, and the americans too low, but i don't think it's a very controversial opinion, just too onesided

The Spaniards standarized and created the grammatical rules for most native languages in America. They just destroyed the worthless elements about their barbaric cultures

This, even today you could see the Aztec mentality in the cartel.

how is the genetic makeup of latin america? what percentage are descendant from natives, spanish or mixed? is the proportion similar in the english or portugese parts of america?

Worthless perhaps if you have no interest in culture. Which begs the question why would you be on a history board if you are so against culture?

>The Spaniards standarized and created the grammatical rules for most native languages in America
most retarded comment I've ever read on this site

>Worthless perhaps if you have no interest in culture. Which begs the question why would you be on a history board if you are so against culture?
Pseud, pseud, pseud. They are worthless because they are literally *worth less* than the cultures which thrived on their destruction.

>"ALL CULTURES ARE EQUAL. WE SHOULD LOVE AND CHERISH ALL OF THEM EQUALLY."
O really? And what about the cultures that practice child sacrifice? Are those equal too? Or how about Viking culture, or samurai culture, or Taliban culture, etc. etc. etc. But what the subhuman means by "culture" is merely some funny costumes and exotic dishes (which, by the way, are not equal either). That's how far his understanding of the concept of culture goes. And so it is with everything. So while hypocritically professing the equality of all cultures, he is hard at work in their destruction, and in the universalization and domination of his own: subhuman culture.

as far as i know, aztecs didn't kidnap people

>Pope Clement VII had given his support to the Kingdom of France in an attempt to alter the balance of power in the region, and free the Papacy from dependency, i.e. a growing weakness to "Imperial domination" by the Holy Roman Empire (and the Habsburg dynasty).
>The army of the Holy Roman Emperor defeated the French army in Italy, but funds were not available to pay the soldiers. The 34,000 Imperial troops mutinied and forced their commander, Charles III, Duke of Bourbon and Constable of France, to lead them towards Rome.
>After the brutal execution of some 1,000 defenders of the Papal capital and shrines, the pillage began. Churches and monasteries, as well as the palaces of prelates and cardinals, were looted and destroyed. Even pro-Imperial cardinals had to pay to save their properties from the rampaging soldiers. On 8 May, Cardinal Pompeo Colonna, a personal enemy of Clement VII, entered the city. He was followed by peasants from his fiefs, who had come to avenge the sacks they had suffered by Papal armies.
>The population of Rome dropped from some 55,000 before the attack, to 10,000. An estimated 6,000 to 12,000 people were murdered.
>Many Imperial soldiers also died in the following months (they remained in the city until February 1528) from diseases caused by the large number of unburied dead bodies in the city. The pillage only ended when, after eight months, the food ran out, there was no one left to ransom and plague appeared.

>And what about the cultures that practice child sacrifice?
>They are worthless because they are literally *worth less* than the cultures which thrived on their destruction.

Got you pham. According to the amount of sacrificed children in the Main Temple of Tenochtitlan, the Aztecs sacrificed about 70 children in 200 years.
Spaniards killed 8000 nobles and their children on the same spot in a couple of hours.

>While Hernán Cortés was in Tenochtitlan, he heard about other Spaniards arriving on the coast – Pánfilo de Narváez had come from Cuba with orders to arrest him – and Cortés was forced to leave the city to fight them. During his absence, Moctezuma asked deputy governor Pedro de Alvarado for permission to celebrate Toxcatl (an Aztec festivity in honor of Tezcatlipoca, one of their main gods). But after the festivities had started, Alvarado interrupted the celebration, killing almost everyone present at the festival, men, women, and children alike.
>The Spanish version of the incident claims the conquistadors intervened to prevent a ritual of human sacrifice in the Templo Mayor; the Aztec version says the Spaniards were enticed into action by the gold the Aztecs were wearing, prompting an Aztec rebellion against the orders of Moctezuma. While differing so on Alvarado's specific motive, both accounts are in basic agreement that the celebrants were unarmed and that the massacre was without warning and unprovoked.

Does that address anything I just said?

I'm not interested in kill-counts, only culture.

This is fucking retarded copy pasting retards should be hanged.

>Does that address anything I just said?
Christian culture prohibited killing and considered children murdering even more reprehensible. Roman law forbid attacking ex profeso without an open declaration of war.
Pretty honorable on paper, but that didn't stop Spanish from doing whatever they wanted.

>I'm not interested in kill-counts, only culture.
then why even mention sacrifices, fucking goal pushers i swear

Objectively speaking yes cultures which practice child sacrifice have value to in our understanding of human cultures and behaviors. Either all cultures have value or none have any. You can't pick and chose what you want without being a hypocrite.

I try to be as annoying as the bigot posts I adress to, thanks.
Also, not argument.
People always come here to shit on the Aztecs for being violent subhumans when Euros were as bad if not worse.

Ticcacqueh zanilli tlen altepemeh tlen quitlatihqueh. Pazoltic miccatzitzin, tlahuehueloliztli, tepopololiztli, chocaliztli.

Also Spanish television is crap, makes Spartacus Blood and Sand a documentary by comparison, pic related.

>
Christian culture prohibited killing and considered children murdering even more reprehensible. Roman law forbid attacking ex profeso without an open declaration of war.
Pretty honorable on paper, but that didn't stop Spanish from doing whatever they wanted.
So basically they thrived despite proclaiming decadent ideals? That's exemplary.

>then why even mention sacrifices, fucking goal pushers i swear
Because as expected, you couldn't affirm the act of child sacrifice. Therefore you would consider cultures which do it unequal.

All cultures have value, and their values are unequal. When a mastering culture preys on another, weaker, less complex culture, the former is much superior.

I do agree that the focus on morality is a stupid thing to criticise the Aztecs for, as all cultures have their own morality. However, the morality criticism was just a front for a superior culture to decimate an inferior one.

>they thrived despite proclaiming decadent ideals? That's exemplary
disregarding Roman law is exemplary?
>However, the morality criticism was just a front for a superior culture to decimate an inferior one.
>
all right, you just went full retarded, have fun goalpushing alone

>Tenochtitlan was founded on an islet in the western part of the lake in the year 1325. Around it, the Aztecs created a large artificial island using a system similar to the creation of chinampas. To overcome the problems of drinking water, the Aztecs built a system of dams to separate the salty waters of the lake from the rain water of the effluents. It also permitted them to control the level of the lake. The city also had an inner system of channels that helped to control the water.

>During Cortés' siege of Tenochtitlan in 1521, the dams were destroyed, and never rebuilt, so flooding became a big problem for the new Mexico City built over Tenochtitlan.

>Mexico City suffered from periodic floods. Under the direction of Enrico Martínez, a drain was built to control the level of the lake, but in 1629 another flood kept most of the city covered for five years.

>Eventually the lake was drained by the channels and a tunnel to the Pánuco River, but even that could not stop floods, since by then most of the city was under the water table. The flooding could not be completely controlled until 1967, with the construction of a Deep Drainage System.

>The ecological consequences of the draining were enormous. Parts of the valleys were turned semi-arid, and even today Mexico City suffers for lack of water. Due to overdrafting that is depleting the aquifer beneath the city, Mexico City is estimated to have dropped 10 meters in the last century. Furthermore, because soft lake sediments underlie most of Mexico City, the city has proven vulnerable to soil liquefaction during earthquakes, most notably in the 1985 earthquake when hundreds of buildings collapsed and 45 000 lives were lost.

>disregarding Roman law is exemplary?
Yes. In the exact same way that superior natures know what the true meanings behind US documents are:
>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all lifeforms are created unequal, that they have no rights whatsoever apart from those that the ruling caste deems expedient to endow them with at any given time, and that Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness are not ideals to be placed over free men but mirages with which to confuse the weak minds of slaves and lead them to their holding cells.

You are a slave who sympathises with historical slaves.

Guaraní was standarized by a Spanish priest and most classes in the universities in America were given in native languages.

Priests were at the same time protectors of Indians, as was Bartolome de las Casas and some Jesuits and Franciscans. And they were the ones who brought much of our knowledge about the cultures by writing down a wealth of knowledge, that said they were also the ones destroying it actively, did the prohibitions mentioned above in the thread and book burnings. De Landa probably personifies this the most in his religious zealotry burning all the maya books he could find, later in life feeling remorse over his actions tried to make a big book about all things he could on the Maya culture, but sadly still not enough to fill the gaps. Also most efforts by priests to try and understand the languages and cultures, was for the purpose of christianizing them better. So it was still done under a pretext of colonialism only culturally.

Wow. What you just did (I'm someone else by the way) was like disregarding every modern invention of American society including this imageboard and celebrating an equivalent American genocide because too many of them died in car accidents

Is it any surprise that Europeans will do anything to avoid holding blame? Even the Belgians continue treating Western Africa like crap despite being responsible for writing the literal book on Darkest Africa. Spaniards, who, with a smaller population and dirtier cities, killed Muslims, Jews and everyone else who wasn't obedient in the hundreds of thousands prior to the conquest. Yet somehow they justify the subsequent genocide of entire civilizations because a tiny fraction of the conquered died in a way infinitely preferable to standard European torture practices of the time....

As an aside, the Indians were not inferior. Others mentioned hygeine. Let me mention two other things:

- Agriculture was more efficient. Do you think anyone has been breeding American Amaranth in the past 500 years? NO ITS GROWTH WAS BANNED PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION. Yet it is, meaning back then it was, more efficient a food source than any crop WE HAD IN WW2. And there are a bunch of other crops as well. They did not require 90 peasants toiling to support the excesses of 10. When the records suggest, for example, the Aztecs were in the early stages of mass education, they actually had the logistical capability to do it because food was simply easier to grow, harvest and process, quite unlike Europeans of the time. What was the first new agricultural "innovation"? REPLACING CORN WITH WHEAT! Why!!!

- Somehow, a group of people a solid 10,000 years behind the technological clock managed to require 10,000 years less to achieve parity with Roman technology... And they did it twice, in two totally isolated geographic regions, twice what all of Africa and Eurasia could only do once and only at an agonizing pace of technological development.

>This We Wuzism
Why are sudacas so retarded? Natives didn't even enter the Iron age after 50000. Even Germanic tribes knew how to work metals. Comparing the Incas to the Romans is fucking retarded. Only a dumb brownc umpalumpa from the Andes would do that

Nothing he said was inaccurate though. Saying we wuzism and racial slurs are not arguments.

>The Spaniards esteemed the medical knowledge of Aztec physicians. Hernando Cortés reportedly told the Spanish monarch that the Aztec physicians were superior to those in Spain, so superior, in fact, that the king need not bother sending Spanish physicians to the New World. Fray Toribio Motolinía thought that the Indian doctors were "so experienced that they have cured many old and serious infirmities which the Spaniards have suffered many days without finding a remedy"

>When the Long Count was put into motion, it was started at 7.13.0.0.0, and 0 Yaxkin corresponded with Midwinter Day, as it did at 13.0.0.0.0 back in 3114 B.C.E. The available evidence indicates that the Mayas estimated that a 365-day year precessed through all the seasons twice in 7.13.0.0.0 or 1,101,600 days. We can therefore derive a value for the Mayan estimate of the year by dividing 1,101,600 by 365, subtracting 2, and taking that number and dividing 1,101,600 by the result, which gives us an answer of 365.242036 days, which is more accurate than the 365.2425 days of the Gregorian calendar.

>>"(About Tlatelolco) After we had sufficiently gazed upon this magnificent picture, we again turned our eyes toward the great market, and beheld the vast numbers of buyers and sellers who thronged there. Some of our men, who had been at Constantinople and Rome, and travelled through the whole of Italy, said that they never had seen a market-place of such large dimensions, or which was so well regulated, or so crowded with people as this one at Mexico."
Bernal Díaz del Castillo, True History of the Conquest of the New Spain, Chapter XCII

>Nothing he said was inaccurate though
>Spaniards, who, with a smaller population and dirtier cities, killed
>Muslims, Jews and everyone else who wasn't obedient in the hundreds of thousands
>As an aside, the Indians were not inferior
>Somehow, a group of people a solid 10,000 years behind the technological clock
>clock managed to require 10,000 years less to achieve parity with Roman technology
You have to be a dumb brown umpalumpa to believe this fairy tale

>the destruction of many works of art, thousands of books, prohibition of their theatre, their dances and in the case of the Maya of writing in their own script.

Why exactly SHOULDN'T the black magic rituals of a satanic culture that revolves around human sacrifice be expunged. Look at it from the perspective of the people who were actually there. If you were suffering from the PTSD of being immersed into a culture entirely antithetical to your own, and had watched some of your friends get sacrificed and cannibalized before your eyes, seen with your own eyes the priests and warriors of the enemy wearing the flayed skins of your compatriots, would you have been sympathetic to preserving that culture?

MesoAmerican culture only seems quirky and tragically lost because we have the distance of time to insulate us from the literal stench of it's excesses. It's easy appreciate a people you only interact with it through the illustrations of an Osprey publishing book.

Frankly it's miraculous any of their culture was allowed to survive at all.

Some of them were not just religious in nature but also historical. Some were possibly guides dealing with medicines. You are also focusing on the 'exotic' aspects of the culture. A lot of it was not that alien to what europeans had back home. In some cases it was better so I am not at all surprised some of it survived.

Kek, Kys ignoramus

>In some cases it was better

It was. Hygiene for starters was superior.

Do you guys have read at least one historical book of America before?

The killing was done, and the advancement memories is written and still being discovered.

For example, we just found out that the guns and horses of the spaniards weren't a big part of the conquest of the incas. The battles' archeological rests have showed that the civil war was one of the main elements alongside the illness, of the fall of the empire.

Mesoamericans, Interamericans and Andinoamericans all had metallurgy. They used gold, bronze, copper, silver and even iron to make from simple jewellery to weapons, being the most famous Inca weapon their bronze/copper spear.

What they didn't have was steel, the alloy between iron and usually carbon. And of course, lets remember how steel originated around 4000 years ago in Anatolia, from where it expanded to Asia and Europe.

Do you thing the world works like Age of Empires? That every human group eventually develops set technologies? Do you think the Chinese, Germans or Gauls developed steal by themselves?