Why did democracy originate in Greece and not in say Africa or China or Scandinavia? And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it?
Nietzsche gives a hint when he talks about the quantity and quality of Greek personalities — unrivalled in all of antiquity — before which even the Renaissance pales. So, first off, realize that, after removing women, children and slaves, only about 10,000 Athenians voted. Athenian democracy was not about empowering the weak, but about a very powerful average people whom no one was strong enough to bring to heel and rule. Democratic tendencies — when they appear naturally, through the will of the people, as in America and France, not imposed on them by outside as in the third world today — are a symptom of advancing civilization, and of a plurality of wills and voices that are becoming increasingly harder to control. In Greece this occurred 2,000 years before anywhere else simply due to how absurdly civilized that nation was compared to any other. So educated, inquisitive, multifarious and demanding that, at times, there was simply no one around strong enough to control them, and that's when and why democracy was instituted — not as an ideal solution, but simply for lack of a better one, to avoid a complete disintegration of society. And that's why Sparta never became democratic. Sparta was strong, but stupid — almost uncivilized compared to Athens. Even in Rome republican tendencies would take centuries to evolve, and would never get anywhere near how far in this direction the Athenians went, simply because the Romans — even at the height of their powers — were nowhere near as civilized as the Greeks had earlier been.
Hunter Fisher
> 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it? AHAHAHAHAH
Austin Kelly
Democracy is nothing more than a big tribal council involving all the males in the group.
Centralized government spreading over more than one community/city often demanded more than something as slow-acting as a democracy.
Austin Richardson
Yeah dude, this is mostly complete false. The U.Saturday adopting democracy is a meme and a half. Rome had democracy, the HRE had democracy, plenty of other places in europe, asia, and even the middle east and Africa had democracy.
Angel Russell
Democracy did not even originate in Greece. Greece was influenced by it's (celtic neighbors to the north) such as the Boi and the Thrakkians/Getae who interacted with them who had tribal confederations and citizenship rights etc.
Elijah Taylor
In the east, Steppenigger confederacies often voted on every single matter.
Chinese villages and smaller towns are governed by a village council. It helps that they're usually clan villages where everyone belongs to the same family. Chaired by the patriarc, mature males and fathers discussed everything that matters on a local government level in Kongsi (Clan Hall) meetings.
In fact a Chinese merchant colony in Borneo applied this governmental level- considering that they were founded by merchant clans- in a statewide scale, leading the Dutch to call them the "Kongsi Republics," the most influential and powerful of which was the Lanfang "Republic."
Ryan Jenkins
>be Athenian thete >get told to row a boat and kill some Persians by the aristocracy >realise that the aristocracy needs you to row boats >"Give us some power or we won't row your boats" >"k" >use power to vote for more boat rowing because you get to steal shit from other greeks >personalities """unrivalled in all of antiquity"""
Kayden King
>what is the Republic of Venice
Andrew Watson
The sort of democracy where members of villagers/town voting on policy was common. The ancient greeks only managed to make note of the systemization of it or rather the classification of it due to strong literature culture and weak central government.
In the east, there was a strong central government which promoted the idea of meritocratic system for bureaucratic jobs. So in essence there was a republican-system there, although not elected, poor villagers often do pool money to send their best to the state to become officials, which inturn means representation to the village.
Isaiah Reed
>ITT >people who know jackshit about athenian democracy
Christian Peterson
Oligarchy, not a democracy. Genoa was the first true post-Greek democracy, and even then only rich merchants could vote.
Leo Mitchell
>And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it? There where plenty of Republics in history, sorry to bust your bubble.
Jose Reyes
Don't forget San Marino
Ryder Powell
It didn't. Democracy originated in Carthage
Caleb Nelson
>Why did democracy originate in Greece and not in say Africa or China or Scandinavia? And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it?
Benjamin Green
If you define democracy in terms of universal suffrage then no country even today is a democracy as no country has truly universal sufferage and allows 1 year olds the right to vote. This.
Thomas Morris
this is what we are taught in the US sadly. I truly believed the US was the first republic since Rome until I went to college.
Hunter Moore
>And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it?
What did he mean by this?
Zachary Jenkins
>And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it? Almost every medieval western european city in the continent was ruled by some form of democracy. Particularly in the HRE and Italy, but also in cities in France and England who had no overlord.
First of all you were a citizen. You were different from a rural feudalcucked peasant in terms of rights. Sure you were a subject of a king but locally you owe nobody save a corporation: the city you were born in. Second your government isn't led by a lord- its by the mayor or burgomeister, that guy is an elected official, elected from the city council which is the council made up of all the leading men, urban nobles, guild leaders. Third, said leading men are often elected, especially among the guilds. This is how you participate in politics since your trade tends to belong to a guild and you aired what you wanted in guild meetings. Otherwise if not then you could attend meetings with your district representative, who also attends city council.
Hell since you have no feudal lord, you're even responsible for your own defense. The city mandates that as a requirement for citizenship, you should have weapons and armor and should spend a term as a militiaman: usually drilling and patrolling the city as a policeman of sorts. You guys are organized either in neighborhood, guild, or social class, and you either bought your own weapons, or your guild/neighborhood pooled money to buy everyone's gear. In wartime you guys are responsible for your own defense and could be called by the King for his army in an offensive campaign. There's a reason why modern democracy borrows heavily on civic government terms (i.e. citizenship)
Michael Thomas
>And why did it take so long — 2,000 years! — until another nation (the USA) adopted it?
Good on you my brother, true patriot right here.
Ayden Ross
No one actually adopted the Athenean form of democracy. It was a direct democracy with no representative bodies, just an elected executive branch.
Modern democracies are much closer to the Roman republic, which had an elected legistlative branch (the Senate) that in turn elected executive officials. They even had some checks and balances (like the veto), which Athens lacked.
Even modern democracies that are more direct, like Switzerland have elected representatives.sd
Landon Anderson
Scandinavia already had a democracy at least over 1000 years old. The Iroquois also did shortly after. And some areas in Mesoamerica possibly too.
Jeremiah Cox
Because the marinetime economy, geographical separation from large Asiatic kingdoms, large populations, and rough terrain allowed the existence of there being multiple autonomous city-states that had their own sub-cultures that almost all of them didn't have autocrats more than a generation. and Athens being the largest and most cosmopolitan allowed it to happen. >only about 10,000 Athenians voted. The estimates are between 30-60,000. >Athenian democracy was not about empowering the weak, but about a very powerful average people whom no one was strong enough to bring to heel and rule. Athenian democracy had class-struggle elements in it that were definitely about empowering the weak. Their forgiving of debts, not allowing slaves to be beaten publicly, granting asylum to refugees, giving out allowances during war, having legal assemblies of the assembly, ect. The affluent, like Aristotle, definitely viewed the concept of democracy of it being power granted to the unenlightened and desperate lower-citizenry, while city-states like Thebes simply disallowed those who were freed citizens who didn't have wealthy enough property from voting--Athens on the otherhand, had no wealth requirement so long as you were a citizen.
Luke Edwards
Thracians and Boii lived in Monarch tribal states that didn't have the concept of citizenry. They weren't oligarchic in the Greek sense and there is definitely no testimony of there being any democracies in them. No. But there's a difference between having the enfranchised class being citizens who had to meet wealth requirements than it being citizenship based. You could be poor and homeless but still vote in Athenian democracy. It gets complicated if you apply those standards to other Greek city-states, the some eras in the Roman republic, and a lot of the early medieval Republics, who aren't as well-defined to our knowledge and often had land-owning requirements.
Nolan Kelly
The Canton of Appenzell also only has a general assembly consisting of all citizens plus a directly elected executive branch. Very close to the Athenian system.
