Why no Gulags Museum or Gulags Memorial Day?
Why no Gulags Museum or Gulags Memorial Day?
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We generally don't make memorials for criminals.
Russia doesn't like to be reminded that they were literally Nazis.
>t. kulak fascist
Gulags, like secret police, are not something unique to the Soviet Union. They have existed from some form in Imperial times and to some extent still exist today.
Why have a monument to russians being russians
>literally Nazis
This post is funny because it is displaying the same sort of behavior OP is mentioning. How people mention the horrors of Nazi Germany a lot but not much of the USSR.
Japanese killed more Chinese and Koreans than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they are not white.
U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they were on the winning side.
This picture is clearly from a Nazi concentration camp, though.
This is not how it works. We care about both, but the Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group and they actually killed more than 50 % European Jews.
>U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews
And this is not even true. The Nazis killed more Ukrainians than the Soviets.
Wouldn't that have to be set up either by the victims or the apologetic perpetrators? The Russians aren't that apologetic, and they also make up a large percentage of the victims. The rest of the victims are eastern Europeans from countries nobody really cares about.
So basically Russia would have to do it and isn't doing it. There's the answer.
No Jews involved on receiving end.
this
Not even a /pol/ack but it's because the victims aren't heavily involved in american media.
>We care about both
I spent 2 weeks on the Holocaust in high school and did not even hear about the Holodomor until I started reading history on my own. Japanese war crimes were glossed over.
We do not care about both equally.
That's because Holocaust was more unique.
> go to demonstration or get killed
That's literally written on their faces.
>the Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group and they actually killed more than 50 % European Jews.
Proof?
Just about every history class or book, or TV show, or Internet article. Are you racist or something?
Most Polish, Baltic and Hungarian Jews were killed off. Read a book.
Too many leftist apologists.
Systematic? Yes it was very disturbing.
But, in the end millions of people rounded up and killed vs millions dead from forced famine and mass slaughter of civilian populations in war time.
In the end millions of people are dead one way or another.
Topkek this.
>Kill 6 million million Jews from 1941-1945
>Sources mostly come from the NKVD
>Kill six million people in Ukraine in 1936 then go onto starve and genocide a few hundred million afterwards
>but that's okay because Stalin sided with the capitalists in WW 2
>Tankies dindu nuffin
>Nazis wanted to exterminate an entire ethnic group
No? They just wanted Jews out of Europe at any cost, they actually assisted people to move to Israel which is what most of the camps were originate built for until they decided to just kill everyone.
>>Sources mostly come from the NKVD
Sources mostly come from Nazi Germany. You know very little about the holocaust.
>Kill six million people in Ukraine in 1936 then go onto starve and genocide a few hundred million afterwards
The famine killed overall 6-7 million people, 4-5 million from Ukraine.
>genocide a few hundred million afterwards
That never happened.
>tankies dindu nuffin
No one says this.
This is not true. Havaara Agreement wasn't taken seriously by anyone, and the Germans agreed to it for economic reasons.
>Sources mostly come from Nazi Germany. You know very little about the holocaust.
Generplan Ost came from the NKVD, as did most of the documents. They were recreated documents, primary sources were rare.
You know very little about the Holocaust.
>A bunch of contrarian autism
It's like you were too autistic to understand I was talking indirectly to /leftypol/
>Havaara Agreement wasn't taken seriously by anyone,
Except for all those rich Jews who got out of Dodge, not to mention the Madascar Plan and Hitler saying in Mein Kampf that he initially just wanted to deport the Jews but would resort to killing them if the liberals and communists invaded him
>They were recreated documents, primary sources were rare.
But we have other sources such as:
en.wikipedia.org
We also know, thanks to German sources, how many people were packed to trains and sent to Auschwitz.
We also have documents like this:
en.wikipedia.org
Generalplan Ost documents tell us nothing about how many people were killed.
>U.S.S.R killed more Ukrainians than Nazis killed Jews, we don't care because they were on the winning side.
This isn't true, 3-5 million ukrainians died vs 5-6 million Jews. Of course you'll accept the former without question but cry about the latter, though
Nice source.
>hundreds of millions of ukrainians died
wewlad
>questioning history is racism
1.) The russian government is still defensive about Gulags
2.) Most of the Gulags are in very remote, isolated regions wherea Auschwitz and co. are near/in major areas. Museums wouldn't work
3.) There are days to remember the victims of Stalin in a few former soviet states
Of course, this is just a crypto-/pol/ thread so this wont do anything
...
>Not understanding that "afterwards" implies after "Ukrainian famine"
Wewlad lrn2 to read
stalin didnt kill hundreds of millions of anyone
his victims are around 20-25 million, which is less than the total # of people killed by the germans anyway
Except those deportation would result in millions of deaths. That was always Hitler's goal. There was no infrastructure and not enough food for millions of Jews in Madagascar.
>Except for all those rich Jews who got out of Dodge
How many Jews? There were 500,000 Jews in Germany before Hitler came to power. In 1939 roughly 250,000 Jews remained in the country. Obviously not all of them left to Palestine. So in the span of 6 years less than 250,000 Jews moved to Palestine.
How would it work with more than 3 million Polish Jews?
Yes, and those other sources are still pretty rare desu the Nazis did try their best to hide their shit after all, the Soviets only got what they did because they rushed the Germans and recreated the document because the Nazis fled in a hurry.
It's still fairly well documented, just not nearly as well documented or horrible as the communists which people tend to forget about in this day and age, which was my original point.
>Except those deportation would result in millions of deaths. That was always Hitler's goal. There was no infrastructure and not enough food for millions of Jews in Madagascar.
No? He would've resettled them and given them land to work.
>Obviously not all left
Yes because Poland happened, Hitler probably just wanted to expell the Jews as European nations had done for hundreds of year.
I was implying communism as a whole. Veeky Forums has worse reading problems than /pol/ it seems. At least /pol/ has the occasional rainman guy
>genocide a few hundred million afterwards
There were barely 210,000,000 people in all of the USSR in 1959
>It's this jpg again
Ffs there has never been enough mass graves to support muh six trillion jews. Saying that millions of bodies were eaten and looted by poor people is not an excuse topkek.
>Quoting journalists and news articles post WW 2
>Veeky Forums still can't read
Ffs I was talking about communism as a whole
great job debunking that. Everything I don't like is a shill
>Everything I don't like is a shill
>Try to debunk blog opinions with blog opinions
>Then he tries to strawman me
All the sources in that jpg come from random blogs with no hard statistics whatsoever and non of which imply genocide. It's just bad argumentation.
>It's yet another reference to the Kohrerr report and the deportation documents under the a priori assumption that they were all actually exterminate
>All of the counter arguments are ad hoc
All of the straw men are literally geared toward beginner level memes
What's next the Leucter report one?
you mean those AMAZING /pol/ jps that post pictures of wooden doors and claim they're gas chambers so the holocaust didn't happen?
>Implying the reverse jpg's people post against /pol/which does nothing but have blog sources, blatant ad hoc rationalizations, and anecdotal emotional appeals are any better
If you get your opinions on the holocaust from a single author or meme.images online you are a retard.
Oh so the /pol/ infographs are bad? wtf do you think is the amazing evidence for the holocaust never happening then? Iran? David Duke? That's about all you have left.
I mean a lot of it is nobody takes holocaust denial seriously in professional fields, because it's so ridiculous, so "debunking" it isn't really that big of an issue. Any real person in the real world with a real job would get laughed out of a building by saying the holocaust is fake
It's an exaggerated death toll still.
>wtf do you think is the amazing evidence for the holocaust never happening then?
the leader of israel saying hitler not wanting to exterminate the jews sure helps
Nigger I don't think the Holocaust didn't happen. I'm just telling you that on 4chsn Holocaust believers are just as retarded as the deniers , both sides care more about their political beliefs than history and post shitty arguments both ways
>building by saying the holocaust is fake
Guess you don't know much about Greece then topkek. Nice eurocentric view on the world btw
>A few hundred million I'd say 50 million at least to 100 million max. The Cultural revolution was pretty fucked desu and all the genocides and wars inspired by communism killed a lot more than people think.
>hating commies makes you a holocaust denier
wew smells like leftypol
>One failure to press enter and get whole post is fucked
Kill me
Stalin and Mao didn't specifically target Jews.
Jews leveraged post-Holocaust guilt to further their position in society and take a death grip on the media, and used said media to elevate the Holocaust over other atrocities that were quantifiably worse.
>as European nations had done for hundreds of year
Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.
>No? He would've resettled them and given them land to work.
There wasn't enough land for few million people.
>just not nearly as well documented or horrible as the communists
There is not a single Communist document proving that millions of people were killed.
>Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.
Lol
>Lol
It's true. What European nations expelled all their Jews?
Lmfao
The funding for Gulag museum would take away from the funds for HOLOCAUST museum. SIX MILLION OF THE CHOSEN PEOPLE died in the holocaust. The suffering of non-jews is irrelivent compared to the suffering of the chosen tribe.
>Except most European nations never expelled all their Jews.
Just most, they moved from place to place very often. Here is one famous example
en.m.wikipedia.org
>There wasn't enough land for few million people
In both Israel and Madagascar? Sauce?
>There is not a single Communist document proving that millions of people were killed.
Sauce or gtfo leftypol
you mean tankies...
>there's already a word for that and even left-wingers know this word.
yeah, but what makes one more unique than the other is the systematic factory like method in which it was done.
forgetting to mention the part where all their assets and possessions became property of the Reich if they chose to leave.
>Ffs there has never been enough mass graves to support muh six trillion jews.
Every single person on earth standing together as close as possible to each other could all fit on the island of Zanzibar.
>6 million jews
even the most rational and well-read non-deniers will tell you that number is wrong. there were memorials writ in stone post-war that were 2 million lower than that
>that's okay
Nobody says this but Russians, idiot.
They deserved it and worked to death is better than being gassed
Except this is the number accepted by most academics.
>there were memorials writ in stone post-war that were 2 million lower than that
Irrelevant. Memorials aren't historical sources.
>Sauce or gtfo leftypol
I should ask about your sources mentioning millions of people killed by the Communists. And I'm talking about documents, not books written by historians.
I should ask you the same since you're just going debate about a priori semantics. I mean by your logic the Holocaust never happened because all the documents that support which have been found have just been estimates about how many people have gone through certain camps and never mentioned outright execution.
Topkek.
>If the government responsible for killing millions of people refuses to record the amount of people who die under their regime then it never happened.
TOPKEK
>>>/leftypol/
>No on says this but Russians
>He's never trolled leftypol
Tankies of all kinds defend this fuck off retard.
But you just said that Communist crimes are better documented. My point is that they aren't.
>I mean by your logic the Holocaust never happened because all the documents that support which have been found have just been estimates about how many people have gone through certain camps and never mentioned outright execution.
Einsetzgruppen reports mention executions.
I mean if you want some primary sources just google it topkek
Actually Westerners already care more about victims of the gulags than Russians do:
"We must remember the millions who died in the Soviet camps. Why? That nasty, nagging "why?" kept dogging me as I made my way through Anne Applebaum's long (600 pp.) and well-researched history of the GULAG. If I hadn't lived in Moscow from 2002 to 2004, I probably wouldn't have had the nerve to challenge Applebaum's mission, commemorating the victims of Stalinism. But one thing you learn in Russia, whether you want to or not, is that the Russians are not interested in this subject at all. And their lack of interest is strangely contagious, infecting even formerly avid fans of Zek literature like myself.
Before living in Russia, I used to wonder why none of the sons or grandsons of GULAG prisoners hunted down the thugs who tortured and killed their relatives. It happened in China, where descendants of those persecuted by the Red Guard tracked down and beat or even killed ex-Guards. And there's an army of well-funded pursuers tracking down the few living ex-Nazis. Why didn't Russians go after Stalin's surviving executioners?
The simple, disturbing answer is that they're not interested. And that bothers us. It's not that the West cares very much about the Russians -- either the millions who died, or the 140 million struggling to live in contemporary Russia. We've made our indifference to them pretty clear, over the past fifteen years. "
"Rather we need to believe that everyone shares our alleged dedication to the Christian-derived notion that we have to love everyone. And that means mourning, or at least going through the motions of mourning, every mass death.
So we wait for the Russians to start moaning and gnashing their teeth over the GULAG, as we would wait for a bereaved family to start keening over their loss. We've been standing nervously outside the Russians' hut for over a decade now, waiting for those banshee wails to trigger our public tears.
And there's been this silence -- at first puzzling, then offensive. And at last, realizing that these shameless Russians aren't going to start their own rites, we decided to do the job ourselves.
Thus Applebaum's book was born. And it has the feeling of a belated, awkward funeral oration by one who didn't know the deceased very well, but is driven by a deep sense of moral righteousness to perform the proper rites. To her credit, Applebaum knows and admits that the Russians themselves aren't interested in commemorating the victims of the camps. She mentions that the only monument they have in Moscow is a single stone from the Solovetsky Islands. We lived a block from that stone, and for two years we walked past it nearly every day. I don't recall seeing anyone take notice of it, even once. It sat there, splattered with birdshit, facing Lubyanka -- completely forgotten. By contrast, the statue of Dzerzhinsky, though exiled to the Statue Garden by the river, is covered with curses and homage, just biding its time. "
>But you just said that Communist crimes are better documented. My point is that they aren't
And I never contradicted myself. Communists are just as well documented as the Nazis if not more because the communists didn't get to hide as much of their sources.
Seriously starting to question your objectivity here.
[...]
"The comparison to post-1945 Germany is the crucial one, the one by which contemporary Russia keeps disappointing and annoying righteous Westerners like Applebaum. This is yet another case of the "Hitler Standard," by which the Nazis are the gold standard of evil, and the painful rehabilitation of Germany after 1945 the gold standard of recovery.
And of course this version of what happened in Germany in 1945 requires a suppression of memory at least as great as that involved in Russia's apathy towards Stalin's crimes. In the first place, it's not the case that Germany's crimes, in general, made much of an impression on "people's minds." Germany's crimes against Russians, in particular, were little noticed nor long remembered in the West -- despite the fact that the majority of the Wehrmacht's victims were Slavs.
Most massacre victims are the sort of people not likely to be remembered. This is one of those almost-tautologies that's still worth saying, like the old evolutionary biologists' joke that most of us are descended from people who didn't die before puberty.
Only when a massacre is unusually dramatic and interesting, and/or involves people to whom we feel particularly close, do most of us feel anything. In other words, the Christian-derived premise that there is some Enlightenment moral sense in each of us, which reacts with instinctive horror at any mass suffering, is simply nonsense."
"The crimes of history are optional. We mix, match and discard according to taste and convenience. It's useful for Applebaum's Tory backers to remember Stalin's crimes because they can still use them to bash anyone who might want to beef up the National Health system with higher taxes. "Today an extra 1% VAT on my Jag convertible, tomorrow Kolyma!" is a very familiar war cry from these crusaders for human rights. Other massacres are dim stats, to be dredged up when necessary..."
>Einzatsgruppen
Reports combatant casualties. That is war, communists were not at war when they committed their crimes either. Not that this excuses the Einzatsgruppen's methods of executing anyone accused of being a communist like the Jacobins before them.
Yes, some communist crimes are well documented, but there are no documents proving that they killed 20 million or even 10 million people.
>20 million or even 10 million people.
Yeah no
>>>Leftypol
You're either a newfags who hasn't read anything yet or googled basic bitch stuff or you're a disingenuous faggot.
>Operational Situation Report USSR No. 106
>Einsatzgruppe C
>Location: Kiev
>II: Executions and other measures
>The population was extremely infuriated against the Jews because of their preferential economical status under Soviet rule. It could also be proved that the Jews had participated in arson. The population expected adequate reprisals from the Germans. For this purpose, in agreement with the city military command, all the Jews of Kiev were ordered to appear at a certain place on Monday, September 29, by 6 o'clock. This order was publicized by posters all over the town by members of the newly organized Ukrainian militia.
>At the same time, oral information was passed that all the Jews of Kiev would be moved to another place. In cooperation with the HQ of EGC and two Kommandos of the police regiment South, Sonderkommando 4a executed 33,771 Jews on September 29 and 30. (1) Gold and valuables, linen, and clothing were secured. Part of it was given to the NSV (National-Sozialistische Versorgung = Nazi Welfare) for the ethnic Germans, and part to the appointed city administration for distribution among the needy population. The action was carried out smoothly and no incidents occurred. The population agreed with the plan to move the Jews to another place.
>That they were actually liquidated has hardly been made known. However, according to the experience gained so far, this would not meet with any opposition. The army has also approved the measures taken. The Jews that have not yet been caught or who will return will be treated accordingly. At the same time, a number of NKVD men and commissars were arrested and finished off.
>TLDR ; war
Sounds about right
>using the same methods of propaganda the pol people use
I fucking hate you ideological psychopaths
>Yeah no
Yeah yes.
>2 weeks
Wow so brainwashing
Yeah no.
>I'm a sperg about the Nazis and only researched about the Nazis so therefore nothing else except my own microcosm is documented
An hero immediately.
> a few hundred million afterwards
Dude, what are you on? I need some of that.
>Veeky Forums still can't read
Communism as a whole has killed easily. 100 million through famine, war, and persecution.
Then show me those documents.
Go to fucking Wikipedia Jesus Christ
Maybe you need to go back to l*ddit instead
Communism probably, the USSR didn't.
Blame Marx, the Germ*n Jew.
I was implying communism as a whole in the my post
>According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953 (there is no archival data for the period 1919–1934).
This is from the documents. There are naturally not documents about how many people died during the famine.
>According to the declassified Soviet archives, during 1937 and 1938, the NKVD detained 1,548,366 persons, of whom 681,692 were shot
This is the amount killed during the Great Purge.
There were also other actions such as Polish NKVD Operation, Katyń massacre and so on. It's still not 10 million.
You mean to say numbers and historical narratives change as time goes on and new sources of information come to light or old methods of analysis get proven incorrect? Who would have thought it?
Where did you gain information?
Pol image macros?
Btw, your grammar is absolutely atrocious