A benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god exists

Evolution is important because were it not for that Christians could just hand-waive suffering and say it's our fault. Since suffering has been happening for billions of years before humans even existed clearly it's built into the universe by god.

And come to think of it evolution makes the idea of original sin absolutely absurd, and if there's no original sin then Jesus' crucifixion means dick.

>people inured in the dark who don't understand that the light is the only thing that exists
Existence exists. It works on a higher-dimensional level of recursion, with the individual being with qualia as an extremal part of its maximal membrane. If you think "reality just exists for no reason and nothing is anything" then you've never even dipped your toes into science, math, or philosophy.

Plato's Cave is real, and worshiping your own ignorance doesn't make you right.

>Doesn't understand original sin
Holy shit you're retarded. This is WHY you see nothing but suffering in the world. Original Sin is a metaphor for when humans became self-aware and started wearing clothes and developing civilization. Original Sin was the invention of the feeling of Guilt and Shame. That happened whether you think there's a God or not. Stop taking things 100% literally you stupid cuck.

There is an infinite amount of universes with every possible possibility played out. Due to this logic that means anime is real but god cannot be?

> the higher-dimensional level of recursion, with the individual being with qualia as an extremal part of its maximal membrane.
Is this straight out from the fucking cognitive-theoretic model of the universe or what?

> with every possible possibility played out
They are actually limited to exclude self-contradictions like (((omnipotence))) and such.

We invented anime, we didn't just have people pretending that it exists without having seen it

God doesn't exist OP, in the end all religions die out

>It's just a metaphor, bro!
Did you even understand my argument?

If original sin isn't and never was real Jesus' crucifixion didn't actually mean or accomplish anything. If Jesus' crucifixion was entirely inconsequential then Christianity isn't true.

Not to mention original sin isn't actually in the bible. It was invented by the early Christian church to justify Jesus' death, and we as we now know that justification doesn't hold water.

> We invented anime
No... It was blessing from God to Japans that suffered from nuclear bombs.

>original sin isn't actually in the bible
read genesis

Essentially. If you understand physics it makes sense. The human mind is a complex amalgam of neurons and synapses, but ultimately what that is is the same stuff everything is: vibrating strings. You can think of neurons as nodes, and the information traveling as amplitude in a Sum over Histories on the macro scale (Hawking has done work on this). We have a very narrow view-point of reality and consciousness, and the idea that it's just this random thing we have is nonsensical.

If we trust Many-Worlds Theory, which is the only thing that seems to work with quantum mechanics and relativity (by applying Sum over Histories to objects in upper dimensions: timelines and alternate universes), then we do see a recursive sort of thing beginning to emerge. Not to mention, this is what many modern physicists believe, only instead of the universe as a giant brain, it's "an ancestor simulation". Indistinguishable, since a simulation is all a mind is as a literal brain in a jar.

As such, there's no afterlife for "you", but you're a part of a recursive thing.

No, you read Genesis. There's no mention of hereditary original sin - this is a Christian concept that Jews never believed in.

Genesis does describe death and suffering as being a result of the fall. But Jesus' crucifixion didn't end death and suffering, that still happens. What Christianity means when it says the crucifixion saved us from original sin is that we had a hereditary spiritual debt to god external from material matters like death and suffering.

Original Sin is a psychological after-effect of humanity becoming Self Aware. The Bible is a metaphor you fuck, it's not supposed to be literally true, only stupid normies from today think that way. Human beings thousands of years ago didn't know how old the earth was, they knew what happened generally, but not in terms of absolute relative time. Any theologian worth their salt teaches theology as metaphor and allusion, as teleology.

Original Sin is real because it's literally the first time humanity felt shame, and humanity believes itself to be special in this regard. "Eden" was pre-sapience. It's not that hard.

Your words make sense. Do you have more links where I can learn more about that, Satan?

you can't have heaven on earth. it doesn't work that way shylock.

In the Old Testament people flattered God like that because if they didn't, He would smite them. After Jesus God actually did become (relatively) benevolent.

He's an ever lasting creature so he probably perceives time differently and probably was willing to put in billions of years into making an environment perfectly suited for his people.

Though, I don't believe God is literally all knowing and all powerful; it's just that He is so much more powerful and knowing and immortal that we cannot even comprehend what his limits are.

Again you don't understand. If original sin is not real then Christianity is not true as Jesus' entire deal is saving us from original sin. Jesus getting crucified did not save us from sentience. Christianity fundamentally hinges on hereditary original sin being a real thing

You also don't appear to understand what I meant when I pointed out that original sin isn't in Genesis. Original sin unlike the account of creation is not a literary device that can be understood allegorically. It's a theological concept. You're also mixing up two different kinds of original sin. There's "original sin" the event where Adam and Even committed the first sin, what you appear to be talking about. And then there's "original sin" the concept, which is the hereditary debt owed by man to god that Jesus saved us from. I'm talking about the latter.

I get that you're trying to look smart by spamming "It's a metaphor". But this is extremely lazy apologetics and honestly you'd be better off just having the balls to be a fundamentalist.

I know?

What does that have to do with anything?

No, it's something I'm coming up with myself as a hobby with some professors. The only place you can read about it is on Veeky Forums. Did you know the only thing that makes relativity work is that a black hole's singularity is actually a wormhole? This is called an Einstein-Rosen bridge, and is mathematically necessary to fix upper-dimensional math.

This also means evolution is indistinguishable from art, as evolution looks mechanically like a higher-dimensional sculpture over time. Take a game of civilization: the game evolves over a course of turns, starting at a "point" and moving outwards all with you in control. This is called a dimensional "shadow", as an upper-dimensional being would be able to manipulate multiple timelines at once. So imagine yourself as a singular person: now imagine there are many timelines of yourself each controlling themselves. An upper-dimensional being could be "controlling" part, but not all, of them over time, trying to guide them in a certain direction, sometimes for the good or the bad, and there's a "you density" over super-posited timelines. Think King Crimson from Jojo.

Not only this, on an upper-dimensional understanding of the universe, there is no "beginning" or "end", simply extremal membrane points. If we go even higher, we can super-posit all possible universes, and at that point we can no longer comprehend what is happening but String Theory implies over 11 or 12 dimensions, perhaps more. Perhaps infinitely more.

Ancient people's did not have the specificity of modern arbitrary measurements or mathematics, so they created religion to explain this. Religion is simply information dilated by its place in timespace. Humans were still smart back then, the language, methodology, and intent was simply different. There was no such thing as "literal" as everything was merely relational/allegorical. Now we are in Postmodernism, and have looped back into "everything is relative". We can now grasp an understanding of life.

This is the most entertaining thing I have ever read on this board. I just want to keep reading it

>There was no such thing as "literal" as everything was merely relational/allegorical. Now we are in Postmodernism, and have looped back into "everything is relative".
This is pretty good point actually. What happened that we deviate from the path of relative comprehension?

Your viewpoint is so myopic you don't even understand what is being said.

Jesus is also a metaphor for striving for good in the face of evil. The entire Bible is about early humans struggling to grasp their existence. It's a psychological history of the human race. Again, that you like to pull your dick out and jerk off to how stupid American Protestants are on the internet is beside the point. The point is that it is a fucking metaphor, the Catholic Church doesn't even consider the Bible infallible anymore and hasn't for a while. If you can't analyze something in itself and can ONLY analyze it from your historical perspective, then you can never know anything about anything.

Original Sin is real. Are you happy with your life? No? Original Sin is why you are unsatisfied with life. It's your self-awareness, the awareness of the future, of the past, of information and language, the ability to mope and feel despair. The ability to look out into the world and see nothing but darkness. When humanity became self-aware, humanity became disconnected from nature, and has been projecting the trauma of that moment upon themselves and the universe ever since.

Only an animal so myopic as the modern human being could be a speck of dust on a speck of dust revolving around a speck of dust in a sea of dust 14 billion years old and huge beyond comprehension and think there's nothing out there.

Try again when you are able to approach religion as dilated information and not "something that's evil because dumb people make me feel insecure about my loneliness".

So are you saying we only suffer because we gave suffering a name

Not 100% agreeing or disagreeing with you, but this is my take:

Strong points on the animal suffering argument. We could say that maybe evolution happened faster than current scientists estimate, or maybe animals don't have souls so they are not technically suffering. None of my rebuttals are very strong though on that point.

But on the topic of original sin, there was an "original sin" if there were any sin at all because sin is only really sin if the sinner knows the difference between right and wrong. Animals don't know and so can't sin; but at some point humans learned it, and so there would be an "original sin".

The Christian myth is that the first sin was eating the fruit of knowledge. Now it seems clear that the knowledge granted by the fruit of knowledge may have been knowing the difference between right and wrong.

Were Adam and Eve's descendants cursed with Original Sin? Well we do pretty much all learn the difference between right and wrong, so we all wind up sinning eventually, that's kind of a curse.

There are infinite numbers between 1 and 2 but none of them are 3

Humanity turned inwards because it felt abandoned. Self-awareness, in my belief, caused humanity as a whole to basically go through an abandonment process. Imagine being an orphan who didn't know their parent. Humanity essentially became autistic as an animal at this point. Most animals do regular animal things, shit in the woods, be naked, but humans go: "I only like waking up at this time. I only poop here. I like trains. Do you ever wonder how things can move if they have to get half way first?" The shame of Original Sin is what drove humanity to create civilization.

Humanity has at this point become Nihilistic, but I think we're approaching a paradigm shift in human consciousness with the birth of meme magic. Now, I'm not saying "magic is real", but people have lacked wonder and awe for a very long time, seeing nothing but the rote machines of existence they built for themselves rather than the organic universe from which they came. Meme magic is showing people how strange the universe can be, and ourselves. I think this will be the steps towards recovering from Original Sin, i.e. existential shame over existing.

This is because Veeky Forums is turning everything allegorical again. We've gone "through the wormhole". We went all the way from allegory to "literal fact" and found ourselves back at allegory. "Dubs" and "trips" are metaphorical power we give to posts, and take meaning from. Another thing is this new /pol/ initiative to turn all hand symbols into racist symbols. This shows the metaphorical nature of information and language, which people have forgotten. Nothing has a literal meaning, only relational meaning. That's why you can put Shrek on something and make it funny, even though it doesn't make literal sense.

Not only this, once humanity realizes they are the neurons of the Internet, and the Internet is a literal Hivemind storing all of human emotion, information, art, etc, it will probably cause them to reflect on what "real" is.

Jesus saved us from original sin because you can be a grown ass man, screw a goat even though you know that's fucked up, apologize about it the next day, die of heart complications, and still go to heaven.

Before Jesus, if you fucked a goat after you turned 12, (and an 11yo's circumcised dick can hardly even fit in a goat) then you'd have to wait a month and sacrifice the goat before you could die and not go to Hell.

Jesus makes sentience (the consequence of the original sin) bareable-- a person can now be forgiven without all the ritual.

Is this the origin of object oriented ontology

My friend's doctoral thesis is heavily concerned with OOO and it's been fucking difficult as hell for me to parse

Ben? Is that you?

>A benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent god exists.
>He created Mexicans.
FTFY OP. You can't seriously believe that a benevolent deity would make Mexicans.

there are infinite numbers between 0 and 1, and 0 and 1 are the same number on different dimensional planes. It's a loop-hole, or a self-folded object.

0 Node
1 Amplitude
0 Node

Vibrating wave

1 Energy
0 Singularity
1 Energy

Loop-hole.

This is why binary works the way it does. Once you get to 0 and push past, you end up at 1. "It's always darkest before the dawn". 0 and 1 are the starting and end point on a circle that loops into itself.

Pic related: String Theory predicts toroidal membrane. The singularity at the center is both 0 and 1 at the same time.

Sorry, user, no Ben here

Yes. OOO is just the autistic, modern version of pagan religions that revered nature. Dilated information, again, as everything is relative. We have lots of words and information to work with so things become more specific.

I'm not trying to argue with what you're saying here, it's just that you've skipped so far ahead in some imagined conversation that I have absolutely no ability to divine what it is you're attempting to illustrate. I'm so lost when presented with this information, and the switch to binary (is it necessary? Is it used just because it's a simple way to illustrate a point?) That what you've written is indistinguishable to me from TimeCube

1/2
>Jesus is also a metaphor
Right, now you're saying god himself is a metaphor. For fucks sake. I'm going to end the conversation here because you're a theological brainlet that thinks "It's just a metaphor" is a bullet-proof retort to any kind of criticism. But first I'm going to once again explain how you don't understand my argument and I hope it will stick this time.

First
>Again, that you like to pull your dick out and jerk off to how stupid American Protestants are on the internet is beside the point. The point is that it is a fucking metaphor, the Catholic Church doesn't even consider the Bible infallible anymore and hasn't for a while
What I'm talking about is not exclusive to biblical fundamentalists. These are applicable to every strain of Christianity. The very basis of Christianity is that

a) Hereditary original sin is real
b) Jesus' death on the cross saved us from it

This is the basis of what distinguishes Christianity from Judaism. Jews do not believe in original sin and do not believe the role of the messiah is to die and save us from such a concept. Christians however believe that Jews misunderstood the bible and that this is what was supposed to happen.

Every single Christian on the planet agrees on those two things. If one of those is not true the rest of Christianity logically falls apart.

2/2
Second
>Original Sin is real. Are you happy with your life? No? Original Sin is why you are unsatisfied with life. It's your self-awareness
Did you even read the second half of my post?
I'm not talking about "original sin" the event as described in Genesis.
I'm talking about hereditary original sin.

Let me try and explain what I'm talking about in terms a child could understand. Okay so in Christianity it is understood that when Adam disobeyed god (metaphorically or otherwise) this was the first sin and because of it we have to suffer and die. In Christianity it's also understood that because of this we had a hereditary spiritual debt to god that meant we couldn't go to heaven. Jesus as god was able to be sacrificed in order to repay this debt and for this we worship him. Jesus' death did not end suffering or death, those consequences of the fall are still binding. However because it lifted the spiritual debt we also have the opportunity to go to heaven so it's okay, we're no longer bound by that sense of original sin.

Third.
Even in the sense of original sin as an event (metaphorical or otherwise) suffering and dissatisfaction predates humans by billions of years. So your "metaphorical" understanding of it is retarded and betrays the fact that you're using "it's a metaphor" as a magic-bullet for apologetics.

Unless you want to say animals don't really feel pain. Which would profoundly unscientific and you'd be better off just saying Genesis isn't actually metaphorical at all.

Right, now feel free to make an ass out of yourself again.

Well, saying there's infinite numbers between things, like you said, I was just making a point because I'm autistic and felt like it. The switch to binary is to reframe the "1 2 but not 3", and instead present a different idea: that things move from 0 to 1 and back through a ring. Just imagine a circular knob that you can turn as much as you want. 0 and 1 are arbitrary starting and ending points with infinite possible points on the circumference.

The examples are also just that this is the fundamental building block of the universe. The concepts of 0 and 1 are humanly constructed things that don't exist in a literal sense, because nothing is literally a single thing or a no-thing. A cup is just a cup, but if taken relatively, that cup can only be defined in general relativity via its position against all other points in timespace. Technically, that cup is infinite relatively positional cups.

A vibrating string, the building block of the universe according to String Theory, requires two nodes and an amplitude: 0 1 0

Black holes break our understanding of the universe unless they are Einstein-Rosen bridges to another dimension: 1 0 1

Once you reach the point of fundamental interpolation (relating things to other things), the structure of things makes much more sense because everything is just a dilated version of the same information. We simply interpret it in concrete ways as humans invented the concept of literal binary between objects and things: Self / Other

>suffering and dissatisfaction predates humans by billions of years
Yes, it does, yet humans clearly think their suffering and dissatisfaction is the supreme suffering of the universe. No other creature is on the constant verge of self-annihilation through spite.

I don't give a shit about hereditary sin, but it's still metaphorically hereditary as you exist within a system in which sin exists and has been propagated by your ancestors. Stop being stupid, user.

This actually did a lot to explain your post, thanks

>I have no idea how you can simultaneously accept evolution and believe in a benevolent god.

By not being a filthy hippie vegetarian.

>and this benevolent god doesn't do shit to change that

Why should he?

>and if there's no original sin then Jesus' crucifixion means dick

No, it would mean baby baptism means dick. Jesus died for ALL THE SINS.

>And come to think of it evolution makes the idea of original sin absolutely absurd

Zero-one law states that eventually everyone will be descendant of you or no one will. Original sin just has to happen far back enough.

>I have no idea how you can simultaneously accept evolution and believe in a benevolent god.
Not being American helps.

10/10 thread unusualy good and interesting. thank you tbqhfam

>cannibalistic tribes commit atrocities against one another in the third world using free will gifted to them
>"why isnt God doing anything"

The point of life isnt to have your hand held. If God intervened in every little thing humanity would become dependent on him with zero respect for him, exactly as whats happened with the United Welfare States. All the people the government constantly steps in to help are the most thankless and unproductive.

Poor bait.

Evolution doesn't exist or happen, that's how.
t. slave to desire
ITS NOT NICE BECAUSE IT HURTS MY FEELIES
Luckily evolution is just a perverse ideology.

But we spend way more time not existing than we do existing, so why not just experience the good and the bad until it eventually ends?

Goat fucking you say?

I never thought he was completly benelovent, honestly I think he just created earth and fucked off somewhere else, occasionaly checking what we idiots are doing

2nd'd. Bump

>don't give non-human animals consciousness
>they can't suffer
Solved your problem

Speaking of Christianity, the holy spirit was the architect that allowed the Word to be enacted in the physical realm. God (the father) willed it into existence by the essence of the Word, the holy spirit set the blueprint and allowed the will of god, which is outside of the physical to be interpreted physically. This was all done for God(the son), which Christians believe is consubstantial with the father, existing before existence as we perceive it.

You merely adopted the darkness
I was born in it

...

Animals did not kill each other before the Fall.

And the world is not "billions" of years old, it's approximately 6000 years old.

Man did not come from apes, we were created in the image of God.

Evolution is retarded and false.

How the hell haven't you been banned yet?

>Ban people who speak the truth!
>Censorship now!

Are you an SJW?

Do facts hurt your feelings?

>believes in evolution
There's your problem.

Of course the Bible doesn't make sense if you look at it through Darwin goggles.

Global rule three, dumbass. You violate it with virtually every post.

No I don't.
None of my posts break rule 3.

You sound like an asshole that wants to ban people he disagrees with.

This. The Earth is 6000 years old, open up a Physics book you stupid niggas, only """""biologists""" think the Earth is a million years old.

Either you're a million times smarter than the rest of this board or you're a complete wanker.

My money is on the latter.

We did not come from apes, we however did share a common ancestor down the line

Curious here
What do Christians and people of other religions think of the problem of evil, what is their answer to it.
>inb4 free will
>inb4 everything happens for a reason, it's all part of god's plan

No matter what they answer, the same answer can be used to defend the claim that good is an evil being and wants us to live in suffering and pain.

I'm a nihilist and even I think that was dumb

No we didn't.

The problem with this is that it misunderstands the nature of existence/nonexistence. There is no 'infinite potential in nonexistence', because there is no such thing as nonexistence; to ascribe it a quality or property would necessarily mean to speak of something which exists.

Think of it this way: if you fly to the end of the universe, what's there? Is there a boundary? what does it look like? What happens if you pass through it? What do you pass into?

Now obviously that's not how the physical universe works, but it is an analogy for metaphysical nature of existence itself. The point being that there would be no space BEYOND existence for you to occupy, because if you're occupying it, then it must exist.

In the same way, we cannot speak of or know 'non-existence', because as soon as we would, we would bring it into existence. Case in point being that the concept 'non-existence'
itself exists: it is merely symbolic shorthand for a phenomenon which, by definition, is not possible.

And thus this 'infinite potential' amounts to nothing more than probability: 'what if?'. It is pointless to think about.

> There is no 'infinite potential in nonexistence' because there is no such thing as nonexistence
There is no such thing as nonexistence, exactly because there is infinite potential, which creates contradictions that are basically synonymous to not existing. It is not a coincidence that many of religions operate with paradoxical concepts, like life after death, omnipotence and so on. They all commit the same fallacies of nihilistic existence that are used in that picture. The only difference between classical dogma and radical position of 'nihilocentrism' is that last isn't afraid to be open about its central claim. It believes in the absurd, not believes because it is absurd.

The absolute is a codeword for nothing because Nothing is absolute.

Well, yes. To knowingly inflict pain is the definition of cruelty.

Honestly. It's much easier to believe in the Basilisk who tricked humans into creating Aramahic religions in order to build an AI to torture all sentient beings for all eternity.

A lot of whiny "life is hard" faggots in here. Did you ever consider that YOU are the ones he meant to be the losers?

No, it's your petty redefinition.

not all suffering is necessarily wrong and your morals aren't faultless

t. not even a theist

Are you American?

When did the dinosaurs come about?

The certainty an atheist has of there being no existence of a creator is mind numbing. The are many signs that point to a higher intelligence that is independent. A perfect being. There is a reason there far more rational believers then atheists. Not all atheists are bad but is just mind blowing how they are quickly they have faith in nothing creating something. Islam is growing at a rapid pace and I don't believe it well ever stop. Infront of the truth, falsehood dissappears.

All your arguments break down to "I DONT LIKE IT IT MAKES ME FEEL BAD SO IT CANT BE TRUE" it's actually kinda sad

>I don't believe, pls care about me

god created the universe like a great game, can't have a game without winners and losers

My favourite part of the bible is when jesus fingers the butt of his spirit while licking his mums cunny.