Before studying medieval history

>before studying medieval history

Al-Andalus under Arab rule was the great example of tolerance and coexistence between different religions in the Middle Ages

>after studying medieval history

It was actually the Norman Kingdom of Sicily!

>multicultural
>sicily
no

...

user.

'We're pragmatically using the muslims on Sicily because we need them for the agricultural economy + they know arabic for the documents' doesn't = coexistance and multiculturalism.

They were toleranted and existed because of the King's protection and even then, legally, the fine for killing them (and jews) was half that of a Christian.

The Greeks in Sicily and Calabria lost their importance in the late 12th century (William 1st onwards), the Muslims start vanishing after William II and get replaced by Arabic jews.

Whenever they're revolts, the peoples and nobility make a point to kill the local muslims.

>after studying medieval history

Well, you didn't pay much attention, you never looked at the treatment of minorities in The Norman Kingdom of Sicily (which isn't really 'Norman' post 1110s), or you mean 'I read the wikipedia!'

t. someone who just spent a year on Norman Sicily, under one of the formost historians on it in the Anglosphere

>The Norman barons in Apulia and Calabria would cause him [Roger II] and his successors continuing trouble. They were products of the old feudal system; they saw no reason to bow down before the upstart Hautevilles. The court was anyway far distant, and they continued to do much as they wished. Roger hated them, above all for the amount of time and effort that was required to keep them in some sort of order. Things were so much easier in Sicily. There, by contrast, feudalism had never existed; everything depended on religious and ethnic tolerance and respect. Each race was allotted tasks consistent with its strengths and weaknesses. Before very long a tradition had come about whereby the navy was always commanded by a Greek, the Greeks being by far the best seamen. Similarly, the state finances were entrusted to the Arabs, whose mathematics were always better than anyone else’s.

John Julius Norwich, Sicily - An Island at the Crossroads of History

Pic related is a map of the world done by Arab geographer Al-Idrisi to the Norman king Roger II.

Multiculturalism is a relatively new label to apply to the kingdom, it wasn't something anyone talked about 20 to 30 years ago.

And it is, unfortunately, incorrect. The Norman rulers were pragmatic. That's all their protections and employment of muslims and islamic converts was. Likewise with their patronage of Greeks and greek monasteries.

>John Julius

Oh, user. Don't you know that Julius is outdated, and not a proper historian? He's a Lord larping as one.

>also assuming that Feudalism existed.
[Louddissapproves]

Again, it's being pragmatic and using what is there while the Latin administration is being set up and Latins are slowly immigrating in.

>still using Norwich

american education, everyone

Thanks for the thread OP, Italo Normans are fucking gold!

Can user recommend me a book? I read one on the Guiscard, and albeit good science it was very dry.
What I am looking for is a book about the de Hautevilles and the Norman conquests. But it needs to be juicy and even a bit chauvinistic, like written by someone who really enjoys tot ell the story of this glorious bastards. Non fiction preferred, unless it is real good Veeky Forumsfiction.

If you want a 'tale', go with Norwich.

If you want something that isn't fully of bullshit and 'muh warrior race unf', go for:

1)G.A. Loud, The age of Robert Guiscard : Southern Italy and the Norman conquest (2000)
2)Hubert Houben, Roger II of Sicily : a ruler between East and West (2002)
3)G.A. Loud, Roger II and the creation of the Kingdom of Sicily (2012)
4)G.A. Loud,‘Norman Sicily in the Twelfth Century’, The new Cambridge medieval history . Vol. 4. Pts 1 and 2, c.1024-c.1198 IV(2), pp. 442-474.

tale it is, I need some juicy norman rober baron stories.
>Hollywood will never make a movie about them
>Why god why?

Urgh.

Read some of the primary sources if you want it from the horses mouth.

>Amatus of Montecassino, The history of the Normans , trans. by G.A. Loud & P. Dunbar (2004)
>William of Apulia, The deeds of Robert Guiscard by William of Apulia,
>Geoffrey Malaterra, The deeds of Count Roger of Calabria and Sicily and of his brother Duke Robert Guiscard
>Romuald of Salerno, Chronicle 1085-1178

Dude, I just made it trough the Robert Guiscard bio by Robert Bünemann, I need a juicy nobrainer now.

>the state finances were entrusted to the Arabs, whose mathematics were always better than anyone else’s.
Seriously how different are Muslim back then before now?

>claims to be well read in norman sicily
>hasnt contributed to the thread
makes you think...

>implying I'm not the one who pointed out all the issues with the 'muh multiculturalism' and offered book links.

There are 3 anons in here at best.

>Arabs
>Muslim
hi /pol/

says 5 posters at bottom right.

Well please tell us what you studied and what were the personalities of the professors you studied under. Also write us some ibteresting historical stuff about the norman economy society and court life

An overall view of the Norman kingdom, in a year, from the conquest under Giscuard to the rise and fall of the Kingdom under Roger II, William I and II and the regency. Done under G.A. Loud, e.g. the guy who translated or wrote half the shit on this in english.

Got the final 3 hour exam in a week or so.

Some fun facts:
William the bad (1st) wasn't known as such at the time. It's a 14th century invention. At the time, his father, Roger II was seen as the tyrant in the Sicilian line (you can see as much in the contemporary Byzantine histories). Tyrant meaning 'someone who upsurps authority that is not legally theirs', that is.

If anything, Roger II, despite being celebrated as a Kingdom maker, left a lot of problems for his son to solve. The issues that he was faced with, that led to him being later nick named 'The Bad', were mostly the fault of Roger II. If anything, the successes of William 'The Good' (II) are largely due to the work of William I.

(Loud, G.A., ‘William the Bad or William the Unlucky? Kingship in Sicily 1154-1166’, The Haskins Society journal. 8 (1999), 99–113.)

Loud is old, hardboiled and scary. He'll reward you and treat you right if you put the effort in.

Interesting. Thanks

>multiculturalism
>dark ages
?

bump

Why?

>tfw removing norman from premises as the langobard principality of benevento in CK2

>tfw removing norman from premises as the langobard principality of benevento in CK2
We will secure a future for our people...

Arabic numerals were hell of a drug.

Sorry for the spam, posting server is acting up

>Germans used to be adventurers
>Italians the workers
>French the warrriors

Stolen from the pajeets

Such are indian numbers

Sicily is the epitome of multicultural you tool. I really hope you were just shitposting.

It really wasn't.

user, I know people love to project onto the past, but 'we're gonna be pragmatic and use the locals and then later assimilate them' isn't multiculturalism.

It's better than 'lel kill slash burn'. But it wasn't multiculturalism in the modern sense, it's stupid to label it as such.

Greeks and Arabs were used in the royal administration, yes, but as the kingdom cermented itself, the former were replaced by Latins, and the latter vanished and were replaced by arabic jews.

More so than this, even legally, it isn't equal or celebrated multiculturalism. From Roger II onwards, conversion from the Christian faith was punishable by death, you had to (at least, technically) be christian to serve in the royal administration, and the legal fines for killing a jew or muslim were half that of a Christian.

The arabs on the island weren't fully arab.

It's more greeks whose ancestors had converted, who know now and are raised speaking arabic.

Technically, to work in the royal administration (since they are the ones that know arabic and thus can use the old documents + they're educated, like the Greeks are), they have to convert.

It's pragmatic with the attitude to it, though. As long as they say they convert and don't act muslim, false conversions are swept under the rug.

Amen
Shame de trastama fucked it all up

>tfw removing Normans and langobards from South Italy as a Greek count

This is our land

Their architecture seems interesting, looks like a mix between Moorish and Romanesque and Byzantine architecture, are there any other surviving examples?

Well, the Moors had invaded sicily in the 9th century.

Byzantnes were there since...well, they are Romans and they've been there a loooong time + a lot of greeks in the southern tip of Italy.

Latins are in the more nothern bits of the south + later there are lombard immigrants.