Has it ever worked?

It's a system used to coax young idealistic yet stupid people into supporting the creation of totalitarianism.

You are damn right

thats what you get for voting drumpf

The guns always point inward that's the purpose of a state you fucking mongoloid

Holy fuck I'm triggered

t. retard

fucking commies get physically removed

communism and socialism will never work because they are the socio political equivalent of a forced meme
the average worker is too fucking stupid and incompetent to co-own and run a factory or any type of enterprise for that matter, and the abolition of personal freedom is antithetical to the human pursuit of happiness

No and never will

>commies

>voted for Trump
>says socialism and communism are forced memes
Never change internet conservative warriors

China hasn't been communist since Mao. After Deng Xiaopeng took over, he effectively made it something he called "state capitalism" with his market reforms. He primarily did this because the economy was completely in the shitter after the Sino-Soviet split.

...

No and I don't think it will ever work.

There will always be people who are more skilled than others. The attempt to bring them down to the less skilled level, which might always be the majority, because it's 'law we have to be equal' will stunt many types of growth.

People who stand out shouldn't automatically be thought of as threats, but you see the less skilled, even in American society, trying to eliminate rewards for achievement. I think the SJW is attempting this. Playing victim in an attempt to bring down people who they percieve as root causes of their insecurites.

Socialism is like a recently fueled car. It works for a while, but eventually the gas runs out and then you have to use flint firestone drive, if you wanna use it at all since there are no gas stations. And that just slows you and everyone else on the road down.

Is Veeky Forums basically just /r/debatecommunism now?

First of all I am not a communist. That said, communism doesn't want to bring everyone to a mediocre state of skill but give everyone the access to the same opportunities and access to the means of production by using a strong state that keeps anyone from imposing their interests above the others

that image looks pretty good

in human tribes probably.

Maybe I'm thinking of Marxism...either way, I remember reading or hearing how both ultimately lead to the hell that is the suppression of growth due to the insecurities that can stem from having more skilled individuals.

>gradually
Thats dumb. Communism is all about the proletariat rising up after decades of shit and overthrowing the bourgeois, which doesn't sound very gradual to me.

That's a criticism made from neoliberalism which isn't really based upon reliable data. Read something coming from communists or anarchists to have a more complex view of socialism and do not limit yourself to internet criticism

>a strong state
Thus is the opposite of communism. Communists want to abolish the state

Today it's only used to scare people from trying to solve the problems of Capitalism, because the rich need poverty to coexist with them.
Stagnate in which sense?
Guns aren't needed when you can let the elite starve to death.
Capitalism is a system used to coax old stupid people into believing they are isolated from other people with a common class interest, who therefore have nothing to do in this world other than to follow the way private owners paved for them, giving up their power and freedom in exchange of false expectations of ascending in the hierarchy due to their own merits.
What makes you think you are above average? Why does every rightist think they are? Specially when accusing the left of disrespectful why saying things like >fucking commies get physically removed
>Haha no I wouldn't be working the fields or working in a factory. No, I'd be a card carrying party memeber after the revolution.
This is more of a capitalist mentality.
Except it doesn't work like this, the diligent worker prefers to think they appear more skilled to their employees than their ''competitors'', but business owners don't actually give a shit as long as they can pass their position to their children instead. there is no Meritocracy.
>but you see the less skilled, even in American society, trying to eliminate rewards for achievement.
What reward is better than freedom and an autonomous existence?

>Only after 1970 did things grind to a halt
What a blatant fucking lie.
Growth of the official economy was always slow, tentative and achieved in short-term boosts fueled by either blood, war or ideological zeal of the "middle management" classes.
Socialism has had many benefits. Most go unmentioned and are hard to quantify. But growing the economy was definitely not one of them.

That's anarchism.

They want to abolish the state by using the state user, that's the main criticism made by libertarian socialists

It's what Marx wanted

They were the same movement until Marx and Bakunin started throwing shit to each other

*wipes stinky shot off my ass with the manifesto*
heh, looks like it works for some things

Do you agree that 10% of the population needs to die in order to establish a marxist inspired government?

What are you, a faggot? Fucking 99% of the population or nothing

Reddit in shambles

No. but i think the means of production and the infrastructures should be public property, and that personal wealth should be proportionate to our inherent human needs. For that, death is not necessary, just for people who acumulate privileges to give them up.
Overpopulation is another problem though, but that is a different matter completely.

I meant shit not shot.
Fug

How do you explain Venezuela then? Theyre the most resource rich country in the world, yet they are resorting to fucking canabalism.

Yea but not to the extent of communism where youre working slave labour at gun point. In America, we have fences to keep people out, in russia its to keep people in.

Jordan Peterson covers this more accurately than I am.

I remember him pointing out that Russia had to post reminders to people to not eat their children during their famines. He pointed out that all this stemmed from their Marxism and Communism etc etc

He pointed out that if you were a successful farmer, selling your goods, you could easily be reported for making too much money. And then you would have to suppress your production of goods, in this case it was food. This contributed to the famine.

Now I think Peterson was pointing out the reality of human behavior, things like jealousy...which caused the reporting to officials of successful individuals.

Marxism, Communism, how ever he linked the two, he pointed out how these ideologues will always lead to oppression and suppression. Because it gives credence and power to the lesser and allows the lesser to keep everyone lesser.

It was a fascinating the way he explained it.

But yeah, he explains it more thoroughly then I ever could

i didn't vote for trump because i do not live in the yoo ess ay, my friend

>What makes you think you are above average? Why does every rightist think they are? Specially when accusing the left of disrespectful why saying things like >fucking commies get physically removed

l2 greentext faggot
and i don't think i'm particularly above average, which is why i come in every day and sit at my desk and do my job, faggot
i fulfill a need the owner the factory has, and i exchange my labor for money
it's that easy

Is third position a meme?
Like, I believe that people should be guaranteed food, water, housing, healthcare, the ability to live a stress-free life, etc. but I don't really care for the workers owning the means of production or the abolition of wage labor and all that. I also believe capitalists are a drain on my people's happiness and the government should do more to keep the upper class in check and not allow them to extort our people.
I feel like everything is just commies or capitalists these days

Marx wanted to abolish the state after the people have learned the ways of communism from the state. But in reality, do commies actually think that the state would just simply give up all their luxury and power just because gommunism xd. The state is there to stay in communism.

Because they started out fine, and then lost ground contact, never solved their core issues, but forget to go back to fix em.

Then again: Venuzuela is famed because the core action of the Commune has been to unsegregate the Rich from the Poor, so the upper class gets subjected to Faevela violence, which in itself is a good thing.
Sadly, it did not spiral into The Upper Classes wanting to fix Venezuela, but instead massive upperclass flight for those who could.

>This is more of a capitalist mentality.
no it's what literally every college iPhone-communist thinks of themselves
since "they would bring about the revolution", they would "obviously be in a position of authority in the new government"

Yes, thats what Nazism or Strasserism is about. Taking socialism from the left, and nationalism from the right, while rejecting the socialist globalism, and rejecting capitalism.
It was such a powerful system it took the entire world to extinguish the flame of Hitler- And the flame never died...

>guaranteed water
ok...
>food, housing, healthcare, stress free life
why?
what is the purpose of life if not to overcome these things through labor?
why do commies want to take work out of life?

Everytime communism or socialism is tried, it fails for some complicated technicality that wasnt "real" socialism. If socialism is so fucking complicated that it fails everytime, then it wasnt meant to work.

>lost ground contact
>core issues
>violence againt upper classes is good

you really are a fucking moron aren't you?
what do these words even mean?

Third position is a code name for fascism. What you think of is social capitalism or social democracy. You use capitalism to power your economy but tax it to fix what it break.

>[...]gets subjected to Faevela violence, which in itself is a good thing.
Socialist logic. Your hate for people you never talked with make you wish evil for the sake of evil. You are like an edgy teenager.

I think removing violence from the favelas is a good thing. Making it a poor working class part is the next good thing to do. Then, you make it a working class suburban area.

Source on Rusia having fences to keep people in?
Btw, you are aware that Russia isn't communist, aren't you?

>kill the smartest flower of society
>country devolves into violence
>mass starvation

Why is this still a relevant political ideology? Its more of a strange philosophical half baked idea than it is political.

My grandparents had to pay off guards and find ways to leave Ukraine undetected. Its a metaphorical fence.
Also, they were entirely communist.

>the average worker is too fucking stupid and incompetent to co-own and run a factory or any type of enterprise
Are you telling me workers who own their company's shares are too stupid to co-own or run the said enterprise because owningshares grants one those very privileges?

While the owner keeps most of the money you and your fellow co-workers produce while making you think his position is relevant. Not a bad deal for him to be born with such privileges.
Not my case. (I don't even have a smartphone since they use them to keep you in check with the private data you allow them to have).
Honestly, if such people make claims of them having to save others/deserving a position of authority, they are missing the point completely. The only way for a fair Communism to succeed long term is from an empowering education of all people and a collective political organization, not from following enlightened leaders.

>people need to be worked half to death and live paycheck to paycheck just to feed their family. No need for social programs otherwise Mr. Hebrewstein would have to pay more than $10 out of his 3.7billion salary. Don't worry about healthcare, Mr. Shekelstein will offer you a great plan just like he did with the mortgage on your 1 bedroom house. You better not complain to your boss, Mr. Goldberg, or he'll import Jose and his 13 siblings to do your work for a quarter as much. You don't want to be a commie, right goy?

If society works by segregation, so all issues are bound to the segregated classes, there will be no will to fix it.
The problem is that it just leads to more violence, which leads to more violence, which leads to a economic downward spiral in a already bad economy, making things worse.

The fact that its such a issue, is a sign that the society in question isn't very advanced.
And by such: It was a failure to even try that, but the idea would be sound if there was a actual form of Nationalism in Venezuela instead of light commie hatred of everything.

The fact it was tried, is a sign that factual dictators of Venezuela has no idea what they are doing, and they can't get good ideas that work.

Because, at the core of the ideology, at some point you need to acquire the means of production.
And then shit hits the fan for several reasons, including failure to utilize the means of production if seized at all.
Socialism as a revolution is basically doomed to be shit, because changing ownership is generally a dangerous thing for everyone involved.
DOOMED TO BE SHIT

>third position
>"commies"

Define "worked".

You used 'its' instead of 'it was'.

>the Cold War was actually a civil war between two Jewish families
You taken the red pill yet

It's still here. Go take a look.

That is in Germany, and I don't think that fence is still used to keep people on one side of it.

voluntary communes have worked on a local level, second aliyah era kibbutzes for example

>born with such privileges
kek cry harder because you'll never be smart enough to start a business
yes. in communism the owner would be kicked out and the workers would run the show
if that were to happen where i work, the whole thing would grind to a halt in a matter of days
>ooooh i'm sad that i have to pay for people to provide services for me waaaaaah
welcome to the real world, user
>If society works by segregation
but it doesn't, does it?
"the workers" is not a class, it's just a trait of some proportion of people
not everyone has the same goals, m8, and people don't magically align themselves the same way just because they are all poor
lmao yeah, anything left of me is communism, don't you know?

Communism is pretty easy to explain. Essentially, it exists primarily as a channel for politically charged people to gain power. It's sort of like how every Republican doesn't actually believe in Republican values and vice versa. They just play the part since the deck of cards they were dealt basically only permits them that avenue of power/success.

The real problem is the people (failed capitalists) that propagate the notion of communism. Literally no successful capitalist thinks communism is a good idea. It's just failures. It's the same reason why I started calling myself a traditionalist (cause I can't get any pussy).

What i am saying, is that by saying
>but it doesn't, does it?
>"the workers" is not a class, it's just a trait of some proportion of people
>not everyone has the same goals, m8, and people don't magically align themselves the same way just because they are all poop
You are not saying anything. You got a passive aggressive edge, with no argument or method.

Segregation: Problem that the segregates are fine with segregation because it makes the problem go elsewhere.
But generally segregated problems bleeds into the rest of society, causing massive social unrest and instability. Even more so when its the majority that is discriminated against.
Ending segregation, is a good move, IF society is willing to deal with the problems that is causing segregation to be a popular action.
In Venezuela case, its just a excuse to let the lower class loot the upper class, instead of just each other.

I like that Veeky Forums constantly complains about Hitler and holocaust threads but never says a word about the everyday "it wasn't real communism" threads

Except segregation is an artificial and state enforced separation of certain sectors of the population
Wealth and power discrepancy is an organic and natural part of humanity, as is hierarchy.
I don't really know or care what you're talking about because it sounds like pseudo intellectual leftist rhetoric, but venezuela is a shithole because of communism and you know it

Well that's the history of the URSS and communist politicians but I think that there's a lot of people who actually believe it's a good system and would be beneficial for humanity. I am not a communist though, I mostly sympathize with traditionalism and the peasant anarchist movements that were successful in Spain during their war until soviets attacked them

But the hlocaust was the genoicde of an 'inferior' race, and Hitler did make new racial ideas to justify his alliances with them Slav states
True communism can only be reached when there is no state and the world is unified
A catholic theocracy without God

>but venezuela is a shithole because of communism
Nobody will disagree with that.
But that doesn't change that what makes Venezuela so newsworthy over other shitholes, is the news of the higher classes being unable to segregate themselves away from the looting/theft/kidnapping and other things the plagues the favelas.

I like that idea of a catholic theocracy without God. It kinda sounded dumb at first but if you think about it it's a good metaphor

Communism is basically fascism with actual balls.

It does great in war and situations that require mobilization in general (space race comes to mind), but can not compete in peacetime against the capitalist regimes.

No, and it will never work.
I am from the east block and was born in 94' but i was raised with all the stories about the communist pricks.
If someone is shitposting about the democracy, he just doesn't know what it is to be in a totalitarian regime.

Fuck off milenials that have no other trouble than having 100- like on instagram.

>the USSR was real communism
Nice meme

I could start a business, but it wouldn't make a difference since the markets are monopolized by the high class.
>the whole thing would grind to a halt in a matter of days
Maybe it's for the better.
>ooooh i'm sad that i have to pay for people to provide services for me waaaaaah
You are putting words on user's mouth. I think their comment has more to do with the powerful needing the workers' service and not the other way around.
>If society works by segregation
>but it doesn't, does it?
Your place in Capitalism is decided by which family you are born in. If you believe the infrastructure of power(economy) isn't owned/inherited privately, you must be quite deluded.
>not everyone has the same goals
Every human being has some basic needs that need to be covered, and the same goal of being happy. Maybe through different means, but same goal, and everyone should have those means guaranteed as long as they are realistic (relying in your OWN labor, instead of requiring others').
There is no such things as failed capitalists, the notion of Communism comes from an egalitarian common sense, while the notion of Capitalism comes from a hyerarchycal convenience which people who doesn't want to worry about power happily buy.
In the end, any ideology is a social construct to help organize people with similar political orientation in order to establish a set of rules to guarantee a common good for those involved. There is not a system which is better than others, each is better for their respective political/economical class. The fact that Communism isn't being implemented today is because the bottom of the pyramid has yet to recognize itself and as such, organize; just because the possibility hasn't awoken yet doesn't justify your immobilist, result driven view, as human nature: refer to Communism is antinationalist because human egalitarianism, it's only acceptable in a worldwide scale without dividing humanity.

i guess, i never read the news about venezuela so i don't know what goes on there

>Born 94
>Parents grew up in Post-Stalin
Try harder.

You don't know what it's like either you tremendous piece of a faggot slav

>Communism is antinationalist because human egalitarianism

That's hillariosly American thing to say. Communism and nationalism appear more often together in one camp rather then standing against each other.

>muh anecdote
Fuck off back to drinking rakia, Milosh

>space race comes to mind

top kek!!!

>the markets are monopolized by the high class
how defeatist of you
>maybe it's for the better
edgy
>powerful needing the workers' service and not the other way around
except the workers do need the powerful's guidance, leadership and expertise
>Your place in Capitalism is decided by which family you are born in
no, it's about how well you play the game
>Every human being has some basic needs that need to be covered
yes and often times several people's needs clash with each other, even if they're in the same "class" of people
personal interests outweigh "class" interests
>same goal of being happy
not true
>everyone should have those means guaranteed
why?
>relying in your OWN labor, instead of requiring others'
except you will ALWAYS rely on other people's labor because you live in a country that has infrastructure and an economy, which allows you to move about and do things
if you really want to be self reliant, go live in the woods

>egalitarian common sense
oh that is rich
why is it that every leftist thinks their ideology is just "common sense" and "naturally obvious"

>who the fuck is deng and what the fuck is free markets.

>Le if you don't like the system go live in the woods xD ebin meme
Opinion discarded

Becoming "common sense" is endgame for ideology

I don't know if this is true for everyone but I think what a lot of leftists fail to realize is that their opponents don't necessarily disagree with them out of principle. In other words, many libertarians would not mind living in a society where an efficient government can actually appropriate tax revenue responsibly for its citizens. The grim and inevitable conclusion that we arrive at is that this kind of utopia simply can not exist. History has shown us time and time again that government is simply not capable of this responsibility and the only realistic path is minimizing their intervention as much as possible.

What was real communism if it this wasn't? Oh, yeah, the utopia that can't be true becuase human nature is corrupted.
Post Stalin? What the fuck are you talking about you uneducated born-in-the-first-world brainwashed dog? What the fuck do you know about communistic state?

I told you faggots that i grew up being raised by people who have lived it. What would you do, when you fuck the shit out of your ass to build your own bussines, get tons of hours work, loose time educating yourself to build a better factory and then BOOOM, communism happens. They take everything from you, put you in jail because you are fucking smart which equal to dangerous to the state. And die in misery just because you had dreams and worked hard for them.
Fuck you if you think this is okay, and FUCK YOU much more if you think (the real) comminism never exist, autistic highschool prick. You still have to learn and study. Read more, explore more.

>wanting to be exempt from the rules of society while also benefiting from the rules of society
>not absolutely retarded
pick one

>Human nature is corrupted
Thomas Hobbes go home

>eastern Europe
>smart
I don't think so little slave