Why didn't Japan recieve firearms from China earlier...

Why didn't Japan recieve firearms from China earlier? Why did it took until the Portuguese for the Japanese to use gunpowder weapons?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilongjiang_hand_cannon
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan
twitter.com/AnonBabble

>Why didn't Japan recieve firearms from China earlier?
In hindsight, given what Japan would do with those firearms, the Chinese may have done the right thing.

Chinese weapons were utter garbage lad.

Because they were primeval barbariens before 19 century.

The Chinese didn't developed the rifle.

This
Chinese "canon" are firework tier crap

This.
Why would you give weapons to a potentially hostile and xenophobic nation that lives next to you?

>Why didn't Japan recieve firearms from China earlier?
But they did

>Why did it took until the Portuguese for the Japanese to use gunpowder weapons?
Because European guns were actually usable

This, the Japanese knew of and had access to Japanese firearms, but they were not. popular since they were pretty bad

cmon user
the artist in your filename lived in the 19th century
Japan received gunpowder matchlock muskets weapons from Portuguese in the 16th century, and began manufacturing and employing them that century. China first introduced gunpowder a few centuries earlier I believe, though

Chinese firearms*

>they were primeval barbariens before 19 century.
Huh?

You do realize that China still regarded barbarians who adopted Chinese customs as barbarians no matter what right?

Look who's the barbarian now

Sure. Same goes for every adoption of customs and culture at any point in history. Romans-Greeks, Turks-Persians, Anglos-French etc. Still, his post was nonsensical.

>Turks-Persians,
Tbf a lot of Persians still view Turk's as barbarians.

Is it about who views the other as a barbarian? The Chinese have viewed everyone else as a barbarian since forever. So what?
>dey wer uncivilised savages until 19 cenchurie :D"
That's for one, wrong, secondly, irrelevant to the OP's question.

I see hindu culture has been getting popular in China.

>Post 13th-14th century dress.
>Calls it Heian.

Huh? user, I have been collecting different kimono designs and styles on Pinterest and researching them online. I'm not sure that is necessarily Heian period fashion. The patterns and number of layers seems more like Kamakura or muromachi period style(Heian would have more like 10-12). Sorry for the autism, but fashion in different time period across the world interest me.

underrated

Wat? It's the same old joke beaten into the ground. It's literally anything but underrated.

I'll beat YOU into the ground, fag.

were grenades not a thing?
I can understand fucking up a rifle
but how do you fuck up an explosive closed pot?

same as everything else outside their borders, what else is new?

>given what Japan would do with those firearms
keep slaughtering each other?

>Chinese "canon" are firework tier crap
Shitpost always is shitpost.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_cannon
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heilongjiang_hand_cannon

They did, they "received" them during Yuan Mongol invasion, but they didn't know how to build them. But Chinese didn't invent musket, Europeans did.

Samurai were a warrior caste, why would they want to destroy their own standing in society by limiting their role in it?

Guns all over the world destroys pre-existing warrior castes.

why hasn't Mexico received nuke tech from the US sooner? it's 2017 afterall.
you know nothing of edo refinement

Samurai embraced guns in reality.

Embracing guns doesn't mean it effected their position in society any less.

They held the role of professional warriors the same way knights and lower nobility in Europe filled the same role. They were the best equipped because they could afford it. Guns changed this, now soldiers, not warriors were needed to win battles. 10,000 soldiers with guns is more effective than 5000 samurai with guns.

The stopped being their own part of society and had to become officers and adopt other professions.

this was replying to Sorry

>oldest=good quality
nicely done zhang

>it's another "samurai actually hated guns" episode

Using guns doesn't lessen the impact that using guns has on your society. The samurai without a doubt lost out on a lot of their importance to society because of guns. They went from a warrior caste with near-total control of their areas of influence to cogs in the Japanese army.

Only the richest and most powerful families managed to maintain influence, even that was a lessened one.


Guns removed the need for a professional warrior caste in Japanese society, if fucked the samurai in the end.

Which they should in the first place. Transition unruly warriors into administrators and officers for the army.

I agree with you, warrior castes are always assholes. We should never feel bad when they finally get brought to heel by the state and forced to live to the same rules as the rest of us.

I see you have comprehension issue. No one said "oldest=good quality" except you degenerated retard.

The post is to show they're not fireworks, they're handguns made by metals which actually shoot bullets. You fucking imbecile.

You seem to be a little misinformed about the effect guns had on Japan. They did not change the status of the samurai at all.
Guns were introduced by the portuguese in 1543 and within a few years were being produced by Japanese smiths. However, the change in warfare from a focus on samurai to massed formations of peasant levies had begun a century earlier and was only bolstered by this development. The samurai were already more than a simple warrior class - they were a rich, well educated officer and ruling class. After the Sengoku Jidai, guns were banned and all the weapons of peasantry were confiscated. A rigid caste system was instituted and lasted through the whole Edo period, and in it samurai alone were allowed to carry swords. They maintained their privileged status in its entirety up until the Meiji period where they lost it because of the move to a modern, European-styled state and army.
So the fault doesn't lie with guns as a whole, and it only barely lies with rifles. It was just time that did them in.

[Citations needed]
Meaningless either way. The Japs didn't have it for a thousand years.

The first people in Europe to use guns were the warrior caste, they could afford it, the same is true of samurai. The early and limited use of firearms didn't effect European knights either until they became more wide spread. Firearms were used in Europe as early as the 1300s and only started being used to greater effect hundreds of years later. Saying guns didn't limit the samurai because of their initial use in 1543 would be like me saying guns didn't influence European nobility because of their use in the 1330s. There is a larger picture.

Non-nobility being used to fight were still less effective in battle, more expensive to train, feed and maintain. The use of larger professional armies are something only larger well managed states can achieve, use of peasantry as soldiers in feudal Japanese society would still be limited. This is why warrior castes exist in the first place. Guns drastically reduced the costs of raising larger armies, you're under estimating this significance. Once guns became easier to mass produce the need for a warrior class vanishes. They still exist but in a limited capacity, being officers, land owners and well educated civil servants for the state is a step down from warrior caste only below your lord.


Guns were not banned during the Edo period. Enforcing a caste system that favors the samurai is just evidence that they were on their way out. If they were as powerful as they were is previous centuries it wouldn't be necessary to give them special privileges as their role would already be significant and unquestionable. You also say they didn't lose their power until they adopted "a modern, European-styled state and army." You're saying this like firearms have nothing to do with it.

European armies and as a result Japanese armies had no need for a dedicated warrior caste. Guns reduced them to middle men in a state. A step down from their own position in society.

>Why didn't Japan recieve firearms from China earlier?
The Chinese ban on all trade with Japan as a result of pirate attacks put a major damper on the movement of technology.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou

They did.

Chinese introduced them to handcanons and grenades.

The Portuguese later introduced them to a refined rifle.

The difference was few hundred years.

Samurai transitioned from warlords to central government force. The mass use of gun simply meant the samurais would switch to guns.


The key note to understand this properly is to understand that this change took place over decades to centuries. Not overnight. Many samurais switched careers over the years. Most went into government services.

The ones that put significant ideal into the sword as an ideal form died off to gun wielding samurais. Eventually the nomenclature died off because the nature of samurai changed.

>The Chinese didn't developed the rifle.
You mean the Musket.

Yes they didn't. However, China possessed Muskets earlier than Nips did considering their contacts with the Muslim world, such as the gun-crazy Ottomans and Mughals. Nonetheless it took China almost the same time as Japan to start mass producing them.
>Chinese "canon" are firework tier crap
Considering Ming China routed Portuguese with their own native cannon *twice?* Not really.

In addition, post 1521, the Chinese were producing European style cannon, first coming from the captured Portuguese pieces, and then from the Jesuit Missionaries who were allowed in the Ming Court. Afterwards, the Chinese were even making their own native designs based on European artillery. For example, the Chinese had a fondness for breech loaders, which they applied the fuck everywhere in their artillery, including their biggest siege guns.

Japan may have aced everyone in East Asia in terms of Musketry, but the Chinese trumped everyone in East Asian in artillery.

>warrior caste
Classes =/= castes
The first fire arms where Riblaekins, wheelbarrows with stones in them propelled by crude gunpowder
Firearms were given en masse to troops like the crossbow before, it would still largely e levies rather than professional armies

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan
>Due to its proximity with China, Japan had long been familiar with gunpowder weaponry. Firearms seem to have first appeared in Japan around 1270, as primitive metal tubes invented in China and called teppō (鉄砲 lit. "iron cannon") seem to have been introduced in Japan as well.[2]

>These weapons were very basic, as they had no trigger or sights, and could not bear comparison with the more advanced European weapons which were introduced in Japan more than 250 years later

>t. Pajeet Dapoopoo

Samurai status was if anything less rigid than European chivalry. For instance in some cases ashigaru were classified as samurai and sometimes not, and it any case they fought hand in hand with lower ranking samurai.

Guns only fueled an already existing trend towards fast armies of professional soldiers led by samurai. This is clear from casualty reports which shows that guns were responsible for a plurality of casualties not not a majority. In a way it displaced the role of the bow, though bows were still used.

The edo period reforms not only confiscated weapons from many (but not all) non samurai, it also forced samurai to give up direct ownership of land in favor of a stipend. The samurai did indeed transform from soilders and officers to armed buracrats, but this had less to do with the role of the gun and more to do with the need to enforce a totalitarian peace. Samurai with their own land and thus power base were even less conductive to peace than an armed peasantry.

How a small nation like Portugal had and did so much? huge empire, great skills, traders, their combat skills were epic too.

East/Southeast Asia was where Portugal failed, dumbass.
>Driven out of Ming China.
>Driven out of Feudal Japan
>Cucked by Dutch in Formosa and Indonesia.
>Macau only acquired as a good-boy-brownie point reward by the Ming Dynasty because Portucucks were helping stamp out piracy for once instead of being *the* pirates as they were when they first reached Asia-Pacific.

>Yoshi-kun...our mon. It's a skull. It's literally a human skull.
>Yoshi...are we the baddies??

Portuguese had no else to go

Hand-cannons are shit-tier curiosities that offer little advantage over bows.

Even if they "failed" there, Portugal had 1 million of population, 1 million. Look at the size of the portuguese empire, it's insane.

Portugese defeated the dutch in battle in Macao i think (XVII century), and founded Nagasaki.

>2845409
Why would you give weapons to a potentially hostile and xenophobic nation that lives next to you?"
good point

Mexico developed its own nuclear capabilities in the 1960s, but never made bombs. it was a political move so that the US would not do anymore coups in the country like they were in other latin american countries. it even traded its weapons grade plutonium for boats, helicopters, and such.

in the same sense Spain was on never ending wars for more than 2 centuries with a population of like 10 millions, mostly against le french blob army
Iberians were just that kind of madmen

Portuguese were somehow a combo of european greatness, and catholic-inquistion fanaticism and nationalism. when you make those combos in western europeans, you have or massive empires, or great wars.

When you visit the discoveries monument in Lisbon you see they were something else.

What about the Sinicization of the South?

Hey there, Mr. Patel. We are taking care of the witch living in your loo.

>an unknown number of ships, presumably of a larger number, on their home turf defeated an unknown number of ships, presumably of a smaller number, halfway around the world from their home
Who would have guessed? Obviously, this shows that Chinese cannons are of a solid material quality and not that many ships on home turf have an advantage over a likely smaller number of ships far from home.

They had a "Huge empire" in the sense that it was global. But their actual empire was small as fuck, other then Brazil which they conqueored primitive native trives and imported Africans to live there. Their entire history involves getting rekt by the people they were supposed to have "conquered"

Their true glory though is that they were some of the best global travelers, setting off the age of exploration that was continued by the Spanish due to the success of the Portuguese.

BBC Radio has a show in which they cite Japan as a "success story" for gungrabbing. They have another in which they claim that the Second Amendment was supposed to be about formal uniformed armies with centralized armories.

>They have another in which they claim that the Second Amendment was supposed to be about formal uniformed armies with centralized armories
So you're telling us that they have no idea what they're talking about?

t. Alberto Barbosa

The arquebus required a series of innovations that only emerged in Europe and the Islamic world in the 15th century and had yet to spread to China.