When did "real" capitalism began? Some say it started only with Industrial Revolution...

When did "real" capitalism began? Some say it started only with Industrial Revolution, others say it goes back to medieval communes.

The dutch likely had every feature of capitalism (According to Marxist theory) developed in the 16th century, so it was pre industrial. One could argue that the same system worked as early as 14th century Italy.

This does however not cope well with Marxists for a variety of reasons, mostly because it shows that their theory has fundamental flaws in understanding history. More so because they see capitalism not as an evolved economic system that just builds on older economies and the natural behavior of humans, but according to them is something invented by Adam Smith.

>an evolved economic system that just builds on older economies and the natural behavior of humans

market economy seems to be the standard for human economical behavior. have fun proving different.

but that's right?

>have fun proving different
You first

Well, the Dutch where full capitalist before capitalism was invented according to Marxist theory.

And then there's the fact that economical behavior of humans has been thoroughly analyzed and came up with the same set of rules and conclusions. Or the fact that market economy prevails globally.

Marxist theory of history is dumb, but going from something that the Dutch (and maybe Italians) came up with in the last few centuries to a "natural behavior of humans" is quite a stretch

When humans started trading

not sure what you are trying to say.

That there's nothing natural about capitalism

Well, economic behavior didn't changed over history, trade, commerce, money, etc. where always there. Capitalism is just the latest iteration. Not like somebody invented it.
If you feel differently, please bring up some real arguments.

The Medici banking family had already gathered more wealth than anyone in Europe by the end of the 12th century and the majority of folks in the cities were employed for labor. Seems as good place as any to start. Sure, it doesn't meet the requirement folks keep tacking on that you don't rely on having the largest national reserve around, and thus is technically mercantilism, but it's not as if every other "capitalist" nation doesn't still try to ensure it avoids a trade deficit.

I suppose since capital is literally in the word, you at least require banking, but really, the idea of exchanging goods, services, and labor for profit is probably mere seconds younger than the first profession, even if the idea that all this supply and demand would eventually magically work itself out is new. The mechanisms maybe more complex, but the core concept is the same.

Barter and gift exchanges is far from gapidalism.

Yes this is real trade I long for the time when society was like this. Today's trade like the type the "world trade centers" are named after is just profit.

Well, there was pan European trade networks for tin, bronze and amber during the bronze age. However, capitalism has a different definition than just trade, and so you are wrong.

So what genius invented capitalism then according to you?

>the idea of exchanging goods, services, and labor for profit is probably mere seconds younger than the first profession,

True, but that's not capitalism. Capitalism is, essentially, buying labor as an investment. Not just trading anything.

Examples of capitalism:
*hiring someone to work at a business you own (whether or not you work there yourself)
*lending money to someone with interest so they can start a business

NOT examples of capitalism:
*making something yourself and selling it
*hiring servants to run your household
*making money off of slave labor

It is true that capitalism is natural and older than history, bit it wasn't the dominant way of doing things until fairly recently

Not having an inventor doesn't mean it's natural.
Though i guess it is "spontaneous" if that's what you mean. Like terrorism.

>*hiring someone to work at a business you own (whether or not you work there yourself)
>*lending money to someone with interest so they can start a business
Both of which the Medicis and others were doing, back in the 12th century.

...and neither of those were particularly unusual, even among other much more ancient societies.

The usual argument for mercantilism vs. capitalism is that the former focuses on wealth accumulation, while the latter focuses on wealth creation. Even that's a fuzzy line, as some ancient governments did try to encourage the economy concentrate on both.

Yeah that feels natural and fulfilling as opposed to continuous calculation of taxes and interest rates.

>Examples of capitalism:
>*hiring someone to work at a business you own (whether or not you work there yourself)
>*lending money to someone with interest so they can start a business
Yes, and exactly that started to happen as soon as the general economical framework allowing this developed. namely a monetary system, banks, exchanges and suitable workforce in cities. It is not that someone told them to do so because muh theory, they just did it the instant it became possible because muh profits.

>It is true that capitalism is natural and older than history
>it wasn't the dominant way of doing things until fairly recently
???

>Both of which the Medicis and others were doing, back in the 12th century.

I don't disagree, but most people were not Medicis. Wealth was still largely generated by agricultural production, worked by involuntary labor and controlled by political/military power.

Yeah, but OP is asking when it began, not when it dominated the world.

Scale doesn't change it. Society and economy where simply not advanced enough and only few places had the conditions for capitalism at the time.
However, as soon as the conditions where there, capitalism was there too. Mostly because it wasn't a new thing or economical behavior, it was the same as before, just now with new toys.

There's no such thing as capitalism, it's just a Marxist meme used to describe people having more money than them.

>Marxist meme
to be fair, the word capitalism is much older than Marx.

Capitalism is, unlike communism, a word created to describe something that already existed
Your post is extremely unintelligent senpai

he is only half wrong, while the economic system and word is much older, the Marxists really used it in that way.

Not really

Yes really

Does the Ptolemaic Egypt system of "lending" land to peasants so they could work it in the name of the state count as "capitalism"?

I remember China allowing peasants to own land and property, and allowing them to set up their own business back in like the 900s, they had a very similar economy to the modern US for a while. I bet that's the first time a big major player was completely capitalist, or at least what us lame common peasants understeand as capitalism.

>my theory's unfalsifiable. prove it wrong.

Humans naturally share stuff in tribes and organize into guilds and protectionist economies.

adam smith

as far back as usury

source. you're implying as though there are sour grapes but you'd have to prove that this was the underlying motivation of most marxists.

>Both of which the Medicis and others were doing, back in the 12th century.
hahaha what? you know that the medicis were only a thing from the early 1400s?

>but according to them is something invented by Adam Smith.
That is the most un-marxist analysis. literally no marxist argues this.