So what do you Veeky Forumstorians think of the Prison Industrial complex?

>Norway has got this thing going on which pretty much does the opposite of the American prison system, and well the numbers speak for themselves.

Make 17% of Norway's population Mexican and 13% Black and see how long that lasts...

but a lot of gangs have blood in blood out, beating these guys won't stop some of them

is it race or the culture in subsects of cities?

god you retards make me fucking sick. how in god's green earth could you conclude that comparing america's diverse population of 330 million with a tiny homogeneous Scandinavian country is a good idea?

>At least in America. Is it necessary?

No.

>Can it be stopped, realistically?

Sure.

>What's the best alternative?

Legalizing / decriminalizing drugs.

> is it race or the culture in subsects of cities?

I believe it's mostly due to culture, as Black crime rates (and rates of unwed mothers, drug abuse, etc.) prior to the 1960s and LBJ’s disastrous “Great Society”, weren’t that much higher then White rates and could legitimately be explained by the very real conditions Blacks faced in an apartheid America.

Pre-1960s Black-Americans were essentially just chocolate colored Americans and in fact were more conservative then Whites.

Yeah, but as far as I've heard the punishments are incredibly harsh for even minor offenses, which I would not consider humane nor justifiable in most cases. Imagine getting the death penalty for carrying a bag of weed with you.

Hey, I know you guys love to fit everything you can into your political narrative, but this a thread on fucking Veeky Forums and people are just throwing ideas around. At least try to contain your autism.

yeah LBJ was a bit of a fuckup cunt, and the welfare state doesn't help

we have 2 differently evolving human groups: sociopaths and eusocials

does this mean that humanity should separate under pathologies?

antisocials live in a separate antisocial society, populated with only antisocials (sociopaths, psychopaths). only anti-socials are allowed to exist in this society. all sociopaths get to realize their biological potential by living in the society that their biology is fit for.

eusocials live in a separate society from antisocials, with antisocials being deported to their respective sociopathic society. eusocials finally achieve eusocials reality programmed in their eusocials genetics and biology.

>your political narrative

There is no way to discuss history (particularly the history of prisons and law enforcement in America) without also discussing the political elements.

>Imagine getting the death penalty for carrying a bag of weed with you.

Ends justify the means. Singapore has the lowest rate of marijuana smokers in the entire world, no country is even close to being as successful in combating cannabis use as Singapore, so the punishment is clearly very effective.

Honestly, I've studied a bit of this and I think the best solution is the Russian/Soviet model of the corrective labor colony (post-Stalin), generally more humane.

>tfw the CIA is willing to admit the Soviets are more humane in their Prison Industrial complex

cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/DOC_0000498614.pdf

well fuck

Soviet Union had an extraordinarily high crime rate, so I don't think it is a very good idea to copy its prison system. The same goes for current-day Russia

Angola (the prison) basically hires the entire nearby town and a lot of the people working there are basically family.

Lol Singapore still has lots of drug use.
Hardcore crackdowns don't do shit.

>LBJ
>A bit of a fuckup

marginally

Proof?

All statistics that I could find show the exact opposite

>A bit of a fuckup
>A bit

Fair enough, but why wouldn't something similar like this work for the type of minorities in America? The program focuses on rehabilitating criminals by showing them what a normal, independent life is like and in most cases it works in selling them. In fact, they could be good candidates for it. Y'know the majority of minorities are not inherently psychopathic.

I guess, if that's how little their lives are worth to you.

SOMEWHAT

A BUNCH

FINE
YOURE RIGHT
AT LEAST HE DIDNT KILL ANYONE

It is not necessary but profitable.
No, it cannot be stopped since American society slides into the third world, thus any humanisation conceptually impossible.
Alternatives? Mandatory education might play in a long run, but the state would be afraid of intelligent prisoners.

Rationalize it, then.

>Fair enough, but why wouldn't something similar like this work for the type of minorities in America?

Because for the most part, it’s too late to try and fix them once they’re in prison.

Modern day Black and Mexican culture celebrates criminal behavior and by the time a guy ends up in prison, he’s spent years seeing and being told by everyone around him that this is proper normal behavior.

Black and Mexican society need to fix this problem themselves, as they’re the ones who are mostly being subject to and committing the crimes.

How do you want them to fix it if cartels literally run some countries in SA

and singapore is a city-state island in the busiest sealane in the world so any kind of penalties are easy to enforce and the high standard of living means that people are less likely to commit crimes in the first place

that's a retarded theory

>incredibly harsh for even minor offenses
I'd consider prison to be harsher than a fine and getting caned on the ass, frankly. Caning makes you feel small and emasculated, and the fine acts as a lasting punishment. Prison turns you into an animal that has no way to survive except to dive further into the criminal element.

R8 my idea of penal reform in the US:

>Every crime carries with it a fine of some kind
>Petty crimes get you caned on the buttocks.
>Violent crimes get you lashed
>Gang crimes get you caned on the buttocks and the soles of your feet
>Prison is only used for violent, drug, or gang crimes
>There is no gen-pop in prison, prisoners are alone for most of their sentence
>Exceptions are meals, where random groups of prisoners eat together to prevent gangs forming/existing
>Cell swaps are frequent, so as to prevent gangs from forming/existing
>To make up for the increase in what is essentially solitary confinement, prison sentences are reduced; no prison sentence is more than 10 years.
>Plenty of literature so prisoners think about what they've done but don't go insane
>Programs enacted to get prisoners into manual labor jobs after they've done their time in a city/state far away from wherever they committed the crime
>Serial killers, serial rapists, and foreign citizens dealing or importing drugs get executed by hanging. Execution is not a punishment for anything else.
>Rehab is provided by the state and forced if you're caught with anything stronger than pot

>Plenty of literature so prisoners think about what they've done but don't go insane
they should also have access to approved radio and podcasts in their cells. solitary confinement fucks up your mind i've heard. maybe if the prisoner shows proof of having learned something through note taking and daily quizes they can have their sentence reduced or they can be entered into raffles of some sort

>>Plenty of literature so prisoners think about what they've done but don't go insane
If they spend anywhere near that long in de facto solitary confinement, they'll go insane anyway.

>No sentence more than ten years

I'm not saying it should literally be solitary (hence literature, radio/podcast/television, and contact with other inmates three times a day), but prison should not be a fun time, or even just an acceptable time for anyone.

As pointed out in and there are large segments of the American population that see literally nothing wrong with prison. The whole downside of prison is that it robs you of your social life, your economic status, time, your social standing, etc. If your social life will continue existing just fine in prison, your economic status actually GOES UP, you weren't being productive anyways, and your social standing ALSO goes up while in prison then the "prison as a time out" won't work and will never work.

>prison as a time out" won't work and will never work
But it does protect me from the prisoner. He can't steal my car when he's locked up

Sure, but older prisoners have a tendency to regret criminal activity committed when they were younger. Ever listened to one of them give advice to troubled youth? There's a US reality TV show based on it for god's sake.

I'm going to give some anecdotal evidence here which you can take with a grain of salt if you want, but as someone that lives in a roughly 73% hispanic born and immigrant populated city in Southern California, the culture you're talking about certainly has a presence but it's not quite to the extent that you're making it out to be. Those Mexicans in the photo are not what the average hispanic walking around my neighborhood looks like. There are also a lot of hispanic-owned restaurants, markets, and small businesses in close proximity. Consider the fact that hispanic immigrants don't really commit more crime than natives do (crime committed by their native-born children is more debatable though.)
americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/criminalization-immigration-united-states

Honestly, I don't think that it's as irreconcilable as you're making it seem.

>le epic black and mexican people ruining countries meme

>ends justify the means

I've done research on that and it seems that street crime wasn't as common as it was in the USA or other Western countries. Street crime, organized crime, and drug abuse/trafficking (other than alcohol and tobacco) existed but were kept well below the surface. The more common types of crime were petty bribery and occasional embezzlement.

>le blacks and mexicans are indistinguishable in their proclivity towards committing crime as third generation japanese immigrants meme.

>Singapore has the lowest rate of marijuana smokers in the entire world
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA!

THEY FUCKING DO METH IN YISHUN. LORD KNOWS WHEN THERE'S A WHITE GUY, THERE'S BOUND TO BE SOME CUNT SELLING WEED AHAHAHAHAHAHA

FUCKING AMERICANS DON'T KNOW SHIT.

If anything, there are quite a lot of people in the US running around freely who NEED to be locked up forever. Look at the murder rates in some of the major cities - that's getting close to civil-war levels.

And many of those crimes are not solved.

We need a harsh clampdown on violent criminality, and that will probably include more incarcerations and possibly executions under federal laws like AEDPA, too.

The problem in a city like Baltimore is not "the prison industrial complex;" it's the lack of any sort of enforced law in the first place. Murder is de facto legal due to extremely low clearance rates and an incompetent judicial system.

This is the outcome.

Additionally, there is a LOT of variance between murder rates in different states/cities. This variance does not track that closely with incarceration rates. You can also see that Mexico's lack of a "carceral state" hasn't done it many favors with regard to crime rates.

Tfw Angola is infamous even in the Northern states

End the prohibition of drugs and you could cut the number of people incarcerated here in half.

Not many people are in prison on drug charges alone. Most are there for violent crimes.

nytimes.com/2015/08/12/upshot/how-to-cut-the-prison-population-see-for-yourself.html

>I was startled by these calculations for New Jersey, for example: Cutting in half the number of people sent to prison for drug crimes would reduce the prison population at the end of 2021 by only 3 percent. By contrast, cutting the effective sentences, or time actually served, for violent offenders by just 15 percent would reduce the number of inmates in 2021 by 7 percent — more than twice as much, but still hardly the revolution many reformers seek.

>New Jersey could reduce its prison population by 25 percent by 2021. But to do it, it would have to take the politically fraught step of cutting in half the effective sentences for violent offenders.

They should be experiments on self sustainability.

Also, they should force the prisoners to expand the prison downwards.

>It keeps a lot of people employed, it also serves to hide poverty rates and unemployment

So does having people handle leaflets in the street all fucking day.

> as someone that lives in a roughly 73% hispanic born and immigrant populated city in Southern California

While noticeably higher then for Whites, the crime rate among Mexicans isn’t out of control as it is for Blacks and like pre-1960s Blacks, can mostly be traced back to conditions (poor, uneducated, usually illegal immigrants, etc.) and if the U.S. were to shut down immigration from Mexico that feeds and perpetuates those conditions, I feel Mexicans would assimilate into the larger American culture (as historically has been the case) and their crime rates would reflect that.

Blacks on the other hand, have the dual problems of having a pro-crime culture and the fact that they’re an immediately recognizable minority that makes them immediately suspect by others, compounded by the post-60s philosophy within Black society of actively separating themselves from the larger American culture.

Pre-60s Blacks were looking for equality within American society and wanted to be treated like everybody else but after the 1960s, they’ve done everything they can to differentiate themselves from the broader American culture and create even sharper divisions, with the election of Obama only ramping this attitude up to insane levels nowadays.

While Mexicans remain Mexicans IN American (instead of becoming Mexican-Americans) due to the sheer numbers of immigrants flooding into the country, Blacks are going out of their way to define themselves as something other than Americans and insuring that they’ll remain a noticeable (and undesirable) minority in the U.S.

>So what do you Veeky Forumstorians think of the Prison Industrial complex?

It arose because of the massive crime spike of the mid-1960's, which continued into the 1970's (which was actually a "prison reform" era with fairly low incarceration rates by today's standards). The modern US murder rate actually peaked in 1980, by which point the backlash was underway.

>At least in America. Is it necessary?

Probably (for the US). We tried the opposite in the 1960's and 1970's, and it failed catastrophically, to the point of becoming a major issue in national politics for several decades.

>Can it be stopped, realistically?

Yes, it could easily be halted/reversed by changes in the laws or changes in the enforcement of laws. But that would probably lead to an explosion in crime, similar to what happened in Baltimore after the riots when arrests plummeted. That city went from 211 murders in 2014 to 344 in 2015, and already has 145 murders this year alone.

>What's the best alternative?

You'd have to somehow create a culture in which there were fewer shitty parents raising shitty criminal kids.

Since that's not very realistic, we'll probably need a large prison system to keep crime even marginally under control.

>if the U.S. were to shut down immigration from Mexico that feeds and perpetuates those conditions,
Except immigration isn't happening anymore. The rest is baseless speculation based on your prejudices

> Not many people are in prison on drug charges alone. Most are there for violent crimes.

Sure but it’s most for violent crimes directly associated with the black market in drugs.

We had the exact same problem during Prohibition back in the day and it disappeared when booze was again made legal.

There is a lot of immigration into the US from Central America, including Mexico. The question for a few years after the recession was whether or not the outflow back to Mexico by Mexicans exceeded the inflow. Some argued that it did, but this was never proven, and in fact won't be settled in any real sense until the results of the 2020 Census are released.

But inflow from south-of-Mexico nations (especially the Guatemala-Honduras-El Salvador triangle) never reversed, and there are indicators that Mexico itself registered positive inflow into the US in 2015 and 2016 as well.

>Sure but it’s most for violent crimes directly associated with the black market in drugs.

Not really. If you look at shootings in a place like St. Louis (highest murder rate of any large city in the US in 2016), many of them are described as "interpersonal" rather than related to any sort of business or drug-trade disputes.

You have a lot of very dumb kids with absentee parents running around with firearms insulting each other and shooting each other (and a whole heap of bystanders) as a result of this spiral of idiocy.

More incarceration would HELP in this kind of situation, because locking up the most violent, dumb, and impulsive slice of your population on a permanent basis allows the remaining people to live more peacefully, which puts less of a strain on local economic activity, etc.

> Some argued that it did, but this was never proven
wat, experts can get a pretty good approximate. its also confirmed by the amount of immigrant laborers being steady for the last decade.

I'd say we should do tests to criminals to see if a rehabilitation is possible and if that's not the case then a simple execution

> > if the U.S. were to shut down immigration from Mexico that feeds and perpetuates those conditions,
> Except immigration isn't happening anymore.

There was a bit of a downturn during the Housing Bubble collapse but it ramped back up afterward and there’s been a minor drop with Trump’s election but that will also go back up, as a Mexican has far more opportunities and can live a far better life in the U.S. then they can in Mexico and as long as we allow the uncontrolled mass migration to continue, they’ll keep coming and because of the numbers arriving, they will not assimilate.

> The rest is baseless speculation based on your prejudices

It’s based on 49 years of living north of the Detroit border.

Not really a problem. Only 5% of all federal prisons are privately operated. It's blown out of proportion by leftards who masturbate to the idea that America is a police state run by corporations like it's 1895. They get so devoted to making private prisons the hill they die on that they completely forget to address the underlying causes that create a need for private prisons in the first place.

> > Sure but it’s most for violent crimes directly associated with the black market in drugs.
> Not really. If you look at shootings in a place like St. Louis (highest murder rate of any large city in the US in 2016), many of them are described as "interpersonal" rather than related to any sort of business or drug-trade disputes.

Sure, and that goes back to Black-American culture but it also goes hand-in-hand with the illegal drug trade, remove that economic “engine” and crime rates will plummet.

>There was a bit of a downturn...
see . all of that is simply untrue

>It’s based on 49 years of living north of the Detroit border.
as i was saying, baseless speculation. anecdotes and confirmation bias based on your prejudices are worthless.

> > There was a bit of a downturn...
> see . all of that is simply untrue

How is it untrue? The infographic only proves what I said; a small drop came with the Housing Bubble collapse in 2008 and it’s on it’s way back up.

> > It’s based on 49 years of living north of the Detroit border.
> as i was saying, baseless speculation. anecdotes and confirmation bias based on your prejudices are worthless.

Sorry, I didn’t realize I was talking with a wet-behind-the-ears teenager.

Carry on.

>Additionally, there is a LOT of variance between murder rates in different states/cities.

I bring this up every time some moron claims that guns are the cause of crime;

WARREN, MI 2010 CRIME STATS:
Aggravated Assault - 525
Arson - 35
Burglary - 953
Forcible Rape - 69
Larceny and Theft - 2,035
Motor Vehicle Theft - 715
Murder and Manslaughter - 5
Robbery - 171

DETROIT, MI 2010 CRIME STATS:
Aggravated Assault - 10,723 (1942% higher)
Arson - 1,082 (2991% higher)
Burglary - 17,090 (1693% higher)
Forcible Rape - 405 (486% higher)
Larceny and Theft - 18,095 (789% higher)
Motor Vehicle Theft - 12,602 (1586% higher)
Murder and Manslaughter - 310 (6100% higher)
Robbery - 5,538 (3138% higher)

ironically almost 90% of people in jail in Norway are immigrants

Why should humanity tolerate antiosocials (sociopaths, psychopaths, and assorted meanies)?
Why should society accept and protect those who proudly reject, exploit, and destroy it?

why should eusocials be forced to go along with antisocials who are always exploiting and destroying eusocials?

I don't care about punishment or rehabilitation. Only about keeping them away from the rest of us. total isolation from eusocial society achieves that goal.

systemic racism, general racist attitudes of Norwegians, no employment options, no possibilities for religious activities because of intolerance of islam etc. etc. etc.

Why are these people moving to Norway, then, if there are no jobs and everyone hates them?

Welfare with little to no conditions.

Name a country that has a lower rate of marijuana smokers than Singapore.

I don't know about that. The thing is, every city has a drug-trade, but rates of violence are hugely variable. They vary a lot within the same cities over time, too.

So if the drug trade is a factor in violence, it appears to be overwhelmed relatively easily by other factors.

I think much of it comes down to impulsive, criminal-minded, poorly-raised, low-impulse-control younger males having unlimited access to firearms.

To add a bit to that, this is why the US probably needs a large prison system - because the best way to control serious violent crimes is to incarcerate/remove from the population the types of people who are simply too irresponsible/violent to live around firearms.

non american here, can someone give me a quick rundown on LBJ?

He is to blame for a lot of things like the expansion of the Vietnam War, the 1965 Immigration Act, and other events. But I can't really blame him for raising black crime rates in the US.

He was reacting to an existing trend. The Moynihan Report came out in 1965, and mostly cited trends and data from the first few years of the 1960's. The trends were mostly negative.

That was all prior to the implementation of LBJ's "Great Society" programs.

What probably happened is that early automation eliminated a lot of the lowest-end factory jobs in cities like Detroit and elsewhere, which led to a class of unemployed and uneducated black former sharecroppers (and most importantly, their kids) who turned to crime and gangs after losing their incomes.

How did the welfare state hurt Blacks?
Better yet bwhy do peopel point to tht and not the myraids of much bigger things that led to the issues of the Black community today? Why is it that the welfare state and to lesser extent Black women are the scapegoat of Black issues by people within and outside the community

Because they expect that they can find a job.

State prisons user.

>compounded by the post-60s philosophy within Black society of actively separating themselves from the larger American culture.
>Pre-60s Blacks were looking for equality within American society and wanted to be treated like everybody else but after the 1960s, they’ve done everything they can to differentiate themselves from the broader American culture and create even sharper divisions, with the election of Obama only ramping this attitude up to insane levels nowadays.

Wut?

Smugglers tell them that Northern Europe is a wonderland where government pays them to live there, women throw themselves in their arms and opportunities for jobs are plenty.

I think I see what you did there...

>>>Every crime carries with it a fine of some kind
yeah rich people love this this, since they can get away from the worry of paying the fine.