Why do so many Middle Eastern nations, or Muslim majority nations in general...

Why do so many Middle Eastern nations, or Muslim majority nations in general, come under the control of brutal dictators? Dictatorships that repress freedoms, and practice religious persecution to such a high extent. Also why is it that whenever a country such as America wants to become involved, the world paints it as a war of imperialism or to get oil. But when a country such as Russia supports a dictator in Syria, then it's a war of freedom or liberation.

I'm not trying to make a political thread. I just seriously don't understand why the Middle East, and anything related to it, seems so different from a humanitarian stand point than any other region of the world.

I'm using this photo because people use this quote to show how the U.S. just wanted to become imperialist and go after oil. However, one thing people leave out is that either all of these countries were under a dictatorship, foreign invasion force that was controlled by a dictator, Lebanon, or absurdly corrupt, Somalia.

If we really wanted oil from the ME why wouldn't we just go after the Gulf Nations, do the people that say this type of thing forget that the U.S. military is stronger than all of them combined?

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Middle Eastern dictators are preferable to letting the people elect a "convert or die" religious nutter.
Turkey (earlier) and Egypt (as of late) have proven that a strong guide is needed to secularize and modernize a country and their militaries have been the safeguards of their democracy.
The US has a horrible track record, they topple dictators and have nothing to fill the power vacuum, and prolonged military oversight is costly and unpopular, both with the occupied people and at home. Also, they only topple dictatorships who's interests are opposed to theirs (case in point, they're allied with the house of Saud), and that's where the imperialism part of the argument kicks in (comply or die).
Also, that's just a partial quote from Clark, that makes him out to be some tyrant, his full statement is that he saw plans in the Pentagon to do so.

No one is saying that Russia is leading a war of freedom or liberation in Syria. Not even Russia is saying that. It's "an intervention with the purpose of restoring the constitutional order in Syria and it's president". What they did say is that they liberated Palmyra (a city with incredibly rich history) from the Islamic state.

youtube.com/watch?v=chuEBOqA2ow
To understand the gravity of the war, watch this video. It's easy to destroy countries, rebuilding them is a different beast.

>implying secularization and modernization are good things

>But when a country such as Russia supports a dictator in Syria, then it's a war of freedom or liberation

I have never ever heard this narrative before. What media outlet says this except maybe RT? All I've heard is that Russia is just working on its sphere of influence.

I'm sure you'd love to be beheaded by the Mujahideen

Because penis envy is a big thing on the Internet. In reality most people like the USA and dislike Russia. Sometimes blindly so.

Anyway, I think people are just discovering that there's no easy solution to the Middle East. Propping up dictators in the "hard man making hard decisions" strategy obviously backfired when the inevitable happened and those dictatorships became hilariously unpopular and corrupt, needing little to completely blow up. Iran in 1979 is the most obvious example of this, but there are others. For example, Syria was poorer than most of Sub-Saharan Africa even before the Civil War (while its neighbors were much better off despite not having Syria's oil reserves) and was pushed into it by a rise in food prices that quickly ballooned into a much worse event due to deep-seated tensions and government incompetence in the response to the crisis (contrast Tunisia). Iraq had decent living standards due to the money machine called oil, but corruption was endemic and the government killed hundreds of thousands of its citizens and started a war that killed a million people. And so on.

So when the Arab Spring occurred a lot of people were optimistic. When the Egyptians overthrew their dictator, many in the West cheered. But then it quickly became apparent why previous governments backed dictators in the first place: they're considerably more liberal than most of their population. Egypt, one of the most well off Arab countries, immediately voted Islamists into office and insurgencies started sprouting up around the country. Turns out that the dream of a liberal secular free democracy in the Arab World is an oxymoron when 75% of the population believes apostates should be stoned to death and 95% believes the Jews must be wiped out. And a significant fraction, though no one bothered to poll for this, also think that other tribes in their country they don't like should be wiped out. See also Shia Iraq's persecution of Sunnis.

cont.

Basically: at the core of it, you can have a democratic government or you can have a liberal secular one. You can't have both. The ideal solution would be a benevolent and competent dictatorship, but these are extremely rare finds and can't be relied upon. An Ataturk only shows up every hundred years.

Back to Russia one last time, you probably just spend too much time on Veeky Forums, which is full of Neo-Nazis and proven paid Russian shills. The majority of the world doesn't also believe the Holocaust didn't happen. Or that the US has been ignoring IS while Russia has been fighting it despite every objective indication of the opposite (looking at a map could have told you that). Or that Al-Qaeda is a US proxy. Or that the CIA is responsible for the war in Ukraine. Or that the eastern NATO states only hate Russia because of American brainwashing. I don't think even the Russians believe all that, just like I don't think the Americans actually believe the Paris attacks were funded by the Russian government just because Radio Free Europe (American RT) said it.

>that quote
s-source? when/where/why/context?

I agree with you.
However, i think that liberalism should not be imposed as it is now. It's actually cynical to impose liberalism. I believe that in the middle east specifically the government should not fight what the population believes, rather it should strive to explain the benefits of human rights (etc), to show the people that what they're doing is in their interest.
I think the west doesn't understand that.I often see the media/politicians/ngo-s/eu technocrats appalled by the views of the people. And by far the worst offender is Radio Free Europe. It's beyond cancer. How do you expect someone to accept what you preach when you constantly demonize them. I've gotten this impression by following RFE Balkans. They use every chance to bash the Serbs, and then wonder why so many Serbs hate them and why support for the EU is dwindling. Also, on the off chance they criticize say Croatia, just like Serbs, Croats crawl out of the woodworks and lynch RFE and the west as Serbloving destroyers of Croatia.
They don't present solutions, they don't present the benefit. And they don't understand that pushing people leads people to push back.

>If we really wanted oil from the ME why wouldn't we just go after the Gulf Nations
Because we really want oil from the ME(at a relatively low and stable price), we have a special deal with the largest oil producer in the world. We help them fuck up their enemies(Syria, Iran) and defend them if they are attacked(e.g. the skirmish at Khafji), and in exchange they and their Gulf buddies only do oil trades in US Dollars, enhancing the Dollar's stature as a global reserve currency. This essentially enables us to get away with inflationary policies without actually suffering big inflation.
Look up the Bretton Woods conference

Making deals is cheaper and easier than going in and taking over.

youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

>But then it quickly became apparent why previous governments backed dictators in the first place: they're considerably more liberal than most of their population.

But in the Middle East, Islamists tend to be more liberal than secular dictators, contrary to popular opinion. Morsi was more liberal than Sisi (I don't recall Morsi slaughtering hundreds of protestors), Jaysh al-Islam and Ahrar al-Sham are considerably more liberal than Assad, and Erdogan is more liberal than Ataturk was (I don't recall Erdogan murdering people for wearing clothes he doesn't like). They also tend to be less corrupt

>Morsi was more liberal than Sisi
This might be true
>Jaysh al-Islam and Ahrar al-Sham are considerably more liberal than Assad
How so? They seem roughly equal on the "illiberal assholes" scale to me, just different flavors.
>Erdogan is more liberal than Ataturk
But that's comparing a politician from 100 years ago to a modern politician. The world as a whole has become more liberal in the last 100 years. Erdogan is a lot less liberal than many modern secular Turkish politicians.

>Erdogan is more liberal than Ataturk
>WE WUZ OTTOMANS
>RECONQUEST NOW

Why don't you look it up?

If someone said "#notallmuslims we need the middle east to keep its UNIQUE RELIGIOUS CULTURE shitlords!" would you point them out of Veeky Forums too?

This also applies to Saudi Arabia. The king is considerably more progressive than the rest of the population. Every time he pardons an apostate or takes measures to combat terrorism exports in his country, more and more Saudi Arabians whisper to each other about him being a puppet of the west.

You are not retarded enough to believe that Erdogan is going to restore the Ottoman Empire and to declare himself caliph, are you? He is just using typical populist rhetoric in order to gain more votes from Turkish jingoists.

This. Members of Saudi royal family are not some kind of religious fanatics as MSM may want you to believe, they are typical degenerate hedonists who are probably atheists in secret, they spread Wahhabism and keep harsh Sharia laws in order to appease fundamentalists and ensure that they do not rebel against the House of Saud.

Yes, because it sounds like some stupid redditor from /r/The_Donald attemting sarcasm

This fpbp

This isn't even remotely Reddit, Reddit is convinced that "moderate rebels" (jihadists) need to remove evil Assad (literal Hitler) from power because some children were hurt in the course of a war they started.

How the fuck does it make it better? And besides, all the kings so far were sons of Abd-al Aziz ibn Saud who was a fucking XIXth century desert warlord. Doesn't matter if he used the Ikhwan instrumentarily, he was still just a dude who raided some caravans, then conquered some land, murdering all his enemies in process, and called it a state, named after himself of course. This kind of stuff doesn't have a place in the modern world, and religion doesn't have anything to do with it.

>And besides, all the kings so far were sons of Abd-al Aziz ibn Saud who was a fucking XIXth century desert warlord.

And?

>Ikhwan instrumentarily
Am i on /a/?

?

English is my second language, I meant to say he used them as an instrument.
And both they and their father consider the state and its people their property. I can't think of another country that doesn't have at least some notion of popular sovereignty at its core.

>How the fuck does it make it better?

Because the alternative is objectively worse for everyone in the region. Most of Saudi Arabia's population hasn't moved beyond the level of medieval goat farmers.

>I can't think of another country that doesn't have at least some notion of popular sovereignty at its core.

The Saudis are just honest about something everyone in the region (except Israel and Turkey) does. Look at Syria for example. Objectively Assad is only as "sovereign" and "legal" as his ability to use force to remain in power. Thus if he can be removed by force, particularly by other Syrians, then they have the same claim to legitimacy as he does. He doesn't draw his authority from any other place.

My guess, as to why the Middle East is full of dictatorship is because of their culture and religion. Islam is an extremely authoritarian religion, even more so than christianity, and has never gone under a reformation. They've also constantly been under dictatorship and have never experienced a truly liberal republic. Similar to Russia, whose people overwhelmingly support the Putin regime, even though it's very authoritarian. Putin also has the Orthodox church behind him, so you can see in both circumstances the large role religion plays in authoritarianism.

Yeah, but the Syrian rebels will only succeed if Assad loses popular support or they have major outside help. Right now, after 6 years of war, Assad has about 47% support rate, which easily explains how he stayed in power. It's also a larger support rate than Donald Trump btw.

>implying secularization and modernization are not western creation
>implying Reddit doesn't hate western civilization and isn't actively working to destroy it

I can't tell if troll or newfag trying to hard to fit in.

>implying progressivism is coherent

It comes down to money. If Assad can't provide food to the people he'll lose, and Putin certainly has no intention of completely covering his bills, he has his own financial worries. I don't know if Iran has the capacity to fund him.

Both are good things you faggot.

If you don't agree, it's ok, don't resort to a primal stage of thinking, we like debate here on Veeky Forums