How and why did Switzerland become a Republic when the rest of Europe became feudal?

Why? Any city can train up pikemen and crossbowmen, guard a mountain pass and say "lol fuk u".

True enough but you asked about places becoming republics, not the ones reverting back.

Na man, I asked how they managed to do that when everybody else was going full feudalism.

Yes, but only Swiss cities did, why them and not other mountain peoples? theres tons of mountains in Europe.

They were never assigned a noble as ruler but ruled by the emperor immediately. This allowed them to form their own communal government in a way they saw fit.

The city or communal league eventually deposed their imperial leader.

>when the rest of Europe became feudal?
Most of Italy and half of Germany were going republican at the same time dude.

The climate is a bit different. They straddled wealthy Italy and densely populated France and HRE with tributaries to the Rhine, Rhone and Danube. They possess a flatter agriculturally rich region protected by the Alps and Jura mountain ranges.

Name examples then for territories that went republican in the late 13th and 14th century.

What makes them different from Bavaria, Tyrolia, Carinthia etc.? Same people, same mountains, even same Habsburgs.

The villages, towns, cantons, whatever you want to call them were so isolated that having large scale feudal societies would burden them more than organize them. As neighboring empires and states came to subjugate them, these small populations banded together based on their population's willingness to fight. If they want to go, they went. If the war was unpopular, then only volunteers went to join the other warring parties.

There were nobles still. Rich people do what rich people do. They were the major candidates during elections, swayed votes, and sometimes kept oligarchies in a few Swiss regions.

...

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>what is Italy for £20

Those aren't lords but just standard bearers

Something that did not exist at the time and didn't exist for another 600 years?

Okay what happened to the iron kingdom of Lombardy

>isolated
You think the City of Zurich or Bern where isolated at the time?

t. sjws that cant handle a community that isnt a personal safe space

Many things. What is your point? Italy was one happy republic at the time? Not really, they had some city states but just at that time Nobles took over the republics, the rest was either papal state or feudal southern Italy.
Now think again.

It is not about safe space, it is about stupid people. People that are so stupid that they think Denmark is not in the EU. People that are so stupid that they think they need to start a political discussion about current events in a history thread. Those fucking idiots really need to get removed from the gene pool.

>iron kingdom of Lombardy
something that happened at least 500 years before the Swiss?

this desu

>what is venice

A city in Italy?

>what was the Serenissima Repubblica di Venezia
Happy now?

Still a city in Italy. How is that an answer to the OP post?
Oh, you came here to tell us that there was Republic a few 100km away. Thats great, thanks very much.

>serenissima repubblica
>a city
Huh?
>How is that an answer to the OP post?
The answer to a part of the OP question is that the Swiss weren't the only ones that didn't ge feudalized in Europe

Venice was a republic from since the migration period and was never a member of the HRE. Switzerland emerged at the end of the 13th century from some form of rebellion inside the HRE.
Venice is simply irrelevant to the question.

Actually somethink like 99% of the mainland venedian territory was rightful imperial clay.

Thats why the whole League of Cambrai BS started

That still doesn't make it relevant to the OP.

>legitimately conquered
>rightful clay
If conquest doesn't count, then that's rightfuly Euganean clay.

>Thats why the whole League of Cambrai BS started
A conflict between Venice and the Pope started because of imperial land? No nigga, the idiotic imperial clay issue (>implying it wasn't just a vile land grab) came at the end of the conflict, it wasn't why it started.

Ravenna was stolen something like a hundred years before the League of Cambray was signed.
It was mostly a league for the HRE and the French to get their rightfull land back, with the french clay as imperial investiture

It was a region that was strongly independent of much larger entities around them. It was not totally isolated but even large cities like Bern were not a huge destination during the 15th century

Noted. At least they didn't skip leg day

Didn't Geneva turn into a Calvinist theocracy or something?

During the 15th century, 70% of the trade and travel from and to Italy was via Switzerland. Control of that trade route was one of the major sources of conflict. They might have been isolated before the 12th century and the opening of the Gotthard pass, but after that they had one of the biggest trade routes of the time.

Yep, Zurich and to a degree Bern also turned into protestant semi theocratic city states.
>fun strictly verboten

kys

It destroys a lot of their value in the first place. It's a hard sales pitch for your protection racket in a place where grandma can fend off a thousand men.

Theres dozens of mountain ranges all over Europe, yet this was the only instance somone said no thanks to the protection racket.

The pyrenees had some pretty independent people too.

Did the managed to create a state of some sort?

They're questioning you because what you're saying has literally nothing to do with what the thread is asking, and don't know shit about the current situation anyways nig

Navarra, Andorra, Foix, the Cathars

But thats a Kingdom, not a republic.

Never claimed they did. I just said they were independent people.

Andorra was ruled by some kind of parliament btw

They stole all the pikes obviously.

absolute legend hahah

I think stealing has always been a major motivation for the Swiss, they are a thieving breed.

no shit fucking theives the lot, first land then wome, then pikes, now its gold.

sounds like they smart

You shouldn't project modern ideas into medieval Switzerland. Switzerland had local rulers and serfs just like any other European country at the time.

>Switzerland's success
Switzerland was for the majority of its history exceedingly poor. Switzerland's success story began in the 20th century and it was only possible because it is surrounded by larger, non-hostile countries that provide safety, stability and prosperity from which the banking nation can profit. If there were no European Union in the sense of European powers working together and not fucking Europe all the time, Switzerland would be in a much worse position.

Its not 'smart' to steal shit and hoard it. What goes around comes around.

primarily two reasons

firstly its in the fucking alps

secondly the swiss were crazy warlike poeple and no one could get them to serve

>no one could get them to serve
>Swiss Mercenaries

>Switzerland had local rulers.
Name one

Well, they payed them to do that.

>Switzerland was for the majority of its history exceedingly poor.
This is simply not true, Switzerland was average, some regions even where rich.

There was that guy who tried to execute all dogs in zurich

You not only need choke points but the population to defend it.

Switzerland has a plateau encapsulated by the Alps, Juras mountains and lakes Geneva and Constance allowing a more sizeable population.

Tyrolia is basically all mountains with only tributaries to the Danube. While defensible it had a lower population and Habsburgs used their diplomatic savvy to influence it.

Bavarian alps were right next to flatter Germanic lands.

Carinthia's flat lands are exposed.

Swiss were Imperial citizens but vassals of only the emperor for most of their cultural beginning
Then technology advanced so the alps were far more prosperous so had dukes but by this time you had the canton system so they would fight together

Up to the late middle ages Switzerland was ruled by various competing Houses (Habsburg, Kyburg, Zähring, Froburg, ...) in a completely normal and feudal manner, so it's not a matter of Switzerland "becoming" republican while everyone else "became" feudal at the same time.

But thats wrong. Switzerland emancipated itself from exactly those lords during the 13th and 14th and 15th century.
The Habsburg for example where ousted from their former Swiss territories in a series of bloody wars.
Pic related, the Habsburg itself, the ancestral seat of House Habsburg, conquered by the Swiss in 1405

Waldmann? He was elected mayor of a city, and he ended on the scaffold with his head between his feet.

>Habsburg
The Swiss fought those guys from 1315-1499, the even fought them after they became Emperor
>Kyburg
Died out 1263, before Switzerland was founded
>Zähring
Died out 1218, before Switzerland was founded
>Froburg
no such thing

>But thats wrong. Switzerland emancipated itself from exactly those lords during the 13th and 14th and 15th century.
If you had read more attentively you would have noticed that I said "up to the late middle ages".

>The Swiss fought those guys from 1315-1499
See what I said above regarding the late middle ages. The idea that Switzerland was 'progressive' and 'republican' while everyone else was stuck in feudal hell is ridiculous. Switzerland was feudal at the same time when everyone else was feudal.

>Froburg
no such thing

>The House of Frohburg (also Froburg) was a noble family in medieval Switzerland, with possessions in what is now the canton of Solothurn.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Frohburg

>Switzerland was feudal at the same time when everyone else was feudal.
Yes, and they rebelled against those feudal lords and became a republic while everyone else kept on being feudal.

The 'golden age' of the feudal period were the high middle ages, and Switzerland was feudal at that time. By the time of the late middle ages it was by no means uncommon for cities and their vicinity to follow a different model. Also, it should be considered that this was mostly about Imperial immediacy rather than some modern egalitarian ideas of equality. The cities (and Swiss cities were by no means unique in that regard) wanted to maintain their privileges.

1315-1499 is late middle ages. And yes, Switzerland once had noble lords, but then they rebelled against those lords and became non feudal and quasi independent. Thats not exactly typical behavior for the time.

Yet, they where the only ones succeeding at such an endeavor at the time. Plus Switzerland was not only cities but also rural cantons that also managed to break free from their noble lords. Another thing that was really unusual.

Italian city states did it much earlier and you also had cities in what is what is nowadays Germany that had elected councils, Imperial immediacy, etc.

>Plus Switzerland was not only cities but also rural cantons that also managed to break free from their noble lords.
Rural communities in Frisia and Denmark come to mind. Not all of them were successful but arguably Switzerland was a hell lot easier to defend. Not to mention that you had cities in what's nowadays Germany get in trouble with feudal lords (e.g. Prince-Bishops) all the time at that time.

Italian city states did not rebel but where often there since the time of Charlemagne, and no German city rebelled against the Habsburg emperors and took their turf.
Why do you try so hard to deny that the Swiss revolted and turned away from the feudal system?

Uri and Schwyz where not some cities, those guys where cow herders that suddenly started to beat the crap out of the Archdukes of Austria.

Again, Switzerland managed to get independent from the HRE in 1499, albeit de jure this was only 1648.

So there is some guys during the 14th century that turn away from Empire, Emperor, Noble lords, feudal order and all that and instead start a federation of independent mini nations. To complete this they take the best turf of the mightiest nobles at the time, wreck their armies, kill a couple dukes, steal their gold and get away with it.

>Italian city states
Where reverting back to feudalism at the time, 1395 Milan became a duchy.

>no German city rebelled against the Habsburg emperors and took their turf
The German cities had imperial immediacy. Why would they rebel? The Swiss on the other hand were about to have their rights taken from them which led them to rebel.

>Why do you try so hard to deny that the Swiss revolted and turned away from the feudal system?
Because that distorts the historical reality and projects modern egalitarian ideas into it. The Swiss revolt was not led by poor rural peasants that had egalitarian ideas and wanted to get back at their 'betters' but by city states that had the privilege of imperial immediacy and didn't want Habsburgs (with an interest in the well-being of the House of Habsburg rather than the well-being of the whole Empire) meddling in their affairs.

>Uri and Schwyz where not some cities, those guys where cow herders that suddenly started to beat the crap out of the Archdukes of Austria.
Again: the incentive came from the cities. They had something to lose here.

And yet they were republican before the Swiss. The point I'm making is that this isn't unique. Switzerland was merely blessed with an easily defensible geography - that's why they got away with it. Not to mention that the point remains that plenty of city states had elected councils, imperial immediacy, etc. - and all of it without fighting. Chances are had the House of Habsburg tried it through diplomacy rather than a foolish military attempt they would have been more successful and maintained their influence over Switzerland.

>The Swiss revolt was not led by poor rural peasants that had egalitarian ideas and wanted to get back at their 'betters' but by city states
The Swiss revolt started with the battle of Morgarten 1315, lead exactly by those rural peasants not willing to bow their necks. The first city state joined 15 years after the first battle.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morgarten

>Again: the incentive came from the cities. They had something to lose here.
Again, the cities where not even founding members of the Swiss confederation and joined decades after the show got rolling.

Being Republican isn't unique. Turning republican during the late medieval is what is unique.
The house of Habsburg tried it with half a dozen wars against Switzerland and only turned to diplomacy because they kept getting totally rekt by the Swiss

Being diplomatic is advised when you got such kill/death ratios

You're missing the greater picture there. It was by no means just about Swiss peasants not wanting to bow - in particular because they had to bow to the Emperor already and were perfectly fine with it and would have been fine with it longer. They weren't fine with bowing to someone in-between.

>Again, the cities where not even founding members of the Swiss confederation and joined decades after the show got rolling.
And yet they were one of the driving forces. Also, it was foreign interests that played a role of course.

>Turning republican during the late medieval is what is unique.
No, it's not, because they had their Imperial immediacy at that point already and they were mad about it being taken from them. Also, they weren't the only ones who had this. One might argue that the Swiss revolt was unique in regard to how successful it was at enforcing their rights militarily up the point of breaking away completely - but this was not about some kind of modern egalitarian ideal but about maintaining privileges they already had - and which other places had too.

The swiss did not do away with their Noble lords, they just took power from the upper rung of the nobility. Who do you think held power in all those canton councils? The local big-shot landowners did. Who the fuck do you think the local big-shot landowners were? Well they were pretty much nobility.

In Bern you had the Erlachs for Example, and those would be around long after 1600. The nobility did not differ so much from the nobility in the Netherlands. Where the Patrician class was made up of equal parts nobility and freeman.

>And yet they were one of the driving forces.
Now please bring a source for once. because pic related shows clearly that
-not a single town with 2000 or more inhabitants
-early Switzerland was completely rural
-and they where slugging it out with big bad Austria alone.

If rebelling against the feudal system and building your own state was so common at the time, bring examples. HRE, 14th & 15th centuries. Rest of feudal Europe is also fine.

>Who do you think held power in all those canton councils? The local big-shot landowners did. Who the fuck do you think the local big-shot landowners were? Well they were pretty much nobility.
The lists who held power is pretty detailed int Switzerland. Noblemen where a small minority and the power was in the hand of low born people. Rich low born people, but still low born.

This is more true for the rural cantons, where politics was decided in general assembly, every free born man able to hold a sword had equal rights. This system is still honored in some Swiss cantons.

You got to do some power sharing when you completely rely on militia troops. Serfs don't fight, free man do.

>The lists who held power is pretty detailed int Switzerland.
Can you provide them? I can read a bit of german and french but I would prefer an English translation if there is one (Dutch would be best but that would be a very slim chance).

The Netherlands did it in 1568, it just after the end of what people would classify as medieval, but it shares a lot of similarities

Name the Canton and the time frame then please.
Also, last time I checked the Netherlands where a Monarchy.

>-and they where slugging it out with big bad Austria alone.
Switzerland is easy to defend and Austria has always been shit at war.

Flanders tried it a bunch, Novgorod was a republic, so were a lot of Italian cities. Lucca for example did not rebel directly but managed it the diplomatic way. Cospaia declared itself independent when the pope was busy doing something else so he couldn't intervene. Florence rebelled against Henry of Bavaria in the 11th century.

Amalfi kicked out it's lombard lords before 900 and became a republic.

There's also the Frisians who managed to stave of multiple invasions every century (did my thesis on the invasion of 1396 by the Hollanders) and stay indipendent untill 1550 or something.

>Name the Canton and the time frame then please.
Uri 1400-1500
Glaurus same period
(a friend of mine lives in Zurich and I hiked a lot in both Uri and Glaurus, that's why I picked those).
>Also, last time I checked the Netherlands where a Monarchy.
Yes, after 1815 we became a kingdom, but how is that relevant for this discussion? Before that we were a republic.

The difference between a nobleman and a commoner is actually more fluid than people might believe. Serfs existed in Switzerland too, and what is a rich land owner who has serfs tending his fields for him if not a small-scale feudal lord?

>Florence
turned into the Grand Duchy of Tuscany just at the time. I know about Lombard city states, but they are not related as they develop 600 years prior and most are gone by the time Switzerland shows up.
So the Swiss are pretty much the only ones that manage to shake of the feudal order at the time.