I know people like to give Hitler shit about attacking USSR but it was completely justified
>USSR was biding it's time by signing Molotov-Ribbentrop pact so they can reform their military after purges
>military reforms were well underway by 1941
>Stalin constantly probes Eastern Europe by undermining Rumanians and Yugoslavia thus threatening Axis only supply of oil
>Hitler knows this and fears that by 1943 his army wouldn't be able to stop the Soviets so he launches an preemptive invasion before the Soviets can join the war properly and are still weak
>destroying Soviets, Britain loses all hope of victory and sues for peace
He only fucked up when he launched a total war of annihilation. Stalin was very eager to sign a Treaty of Brest Litovsk version 2 by October 1941
I know people like to give Hitler shit about attacking USSR but it was completely justified
>I know people like to give Hitler shit about attacking USSR but it was completely justified
I believe the main point is that Hitler launched a war that was genocidal both in its intent and execution.
Hitler might have faulty intelligence about USSR, but nowadays it's pretty established that Stalin had no intent for a full scale war. The Red Army was in no shape to conduct a war (and Barbarossa showed that). Stalin wanted to fuck around here and there in order to squeeze some more concessions (mainly in forms of technology transfers), but fuck he didn't want war, at least not yet.
There is literally no evidence that Stalin was planning to invade Germany. Also, people would be a lot more sympathetic to Hitler's invasion of Russia if it had simply been to remove Stalin from power rather than a deliberate effort to depopulate the USSR.
Germany prob would have WON ---- If not for Hitler - they should have killed him or stuffed him in a little box --- and just destroyed Moscow & USSR!
ALSO - we should have helped
Literally the best-case scenario for Germany in the 1930's is if Hitler simply never obtains power and the Weimer Republic is preserved.
>Also, people would be a lot more sympathetic to Hitler's invasion of Russia if it had simply been to remove Stalin from power rather than a deliberate effort to depopulate the USSR.
To be fair, I have read a theory somewhere that a "lightweight" war against USSR was simply impossible. The logistics would never allow the Germans to transport enough supplies from the Reich to the front, even assuming that Germany was capable of producing enough supplies for many millions fighting men. IRL the Heer on the Eastern Front was largely fed and clothed by what could be squeezed out of occupied territories by terror, aided by millions of slave laborers abducted and sent to work in German farms and factories. Had the Germans been more sympathetic towards the occupied territories, they would never be able to support such a huge army in a far away country.
If they had a reasonable leader they could have united all the german people under one country without sperging out and ruining it all
>Germany prob would have WON
Nope, it wouldn't. It is a myth created by German generals after the war. In their memoirs they presented themselves as new Alexanders and Hannibals and had to explain how they still managed to lose the war.
Documents show that there was no serious disagreements between Hitler and his Generals until late 1943. By that time the war was already lost.
To add to this, a lot of the eastern bloc were sympathetic and grateful to Germany until they went full genocide. Stupid ass way to handle a war.
>Stupid ass way to handle a war.
Read
Did Stalin really want to sue for peace after Barbarossa was launched?
Yes, he was probing for a peace in 1941/42, offering quite extensive concessions. One of such overtures took place via Bulgaria which, although an Axis power, was neutral in the war against USSR.
What was he? A SJW autocrat? Justified doesn't mean shit in grand strategy.
Quints can't lie.
Interesting, doesnt seem like a Stalin thing to do though, getting betrayed asking for peace
Then asking *
Fun fact - Stalin suffered a mental breakdown during first week of Barbarossa and spent it in complete isolation in his Dacha. Only after Molotov and rest of Politburo came to him to ask for his leadership (Stalin at first thought they were going to arrest him)
Seriously? Source? Who sits around and cries like a bitch for a week at the start of a war?
To be fair, the war on the Soviets was justified, but they did it in a shit way.
Maybe if someone other than shitty Hitler was in charge of the operation they would have won.
Maybe just bypass Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad and just fight the Soviets in the open where the Panzers were best.
But lord no... Less try to take Leningrad, Stalingrad, and fortified positions in Kursk where the tanks are no good.
Really. In order to win against the Soviets, Hitler would have to had died early in 1941.
There is literally no way that they could have won. The USSR is just too fucking big.
They beat the Russians in 1917.
Had they decided destroy armies rather than land occupation was the goal, they could have just kept killing armies. I'd say they only need to kill 3-5 million more and Stalin would have white peaced.
Though the best strategy would have been just let the Soviets invade Poland and then fake join the allies.
>IRL the Heer on the Eastern Front was largely fed and clothed by what could be squeezed out of occupied territories by terror
any statistics?
In 1917 they had completely different win conditions.
Which was why I said, Hitler had to die in order for the Germans to win against the Soviets.
Who wants useless Ukrainian clay?
>useless Ukrainian clay
that "useless Ukrainian clay" is the most fertile grain soil on earth
Not the guy you where replying to but I always wondered how the Russians fed themselves when they lost all the fertile land to the nazis , especially in the winter
>Who wants useless Ukrainian clay?
Low development means easy cultural conversion and then you can upgrade the development quite rapidly due to quite a bit of farmland and grassland terrain.
They didn't lose "all their fertile land". The Volga banks are also quite fertile; maybe not as rich as the stuff around the Dniepr, but it's hardly like the entirety of the country is tundra.
If Iowa became irradiated and barren due to some accident that didn't spread further, that would be bad for the U.S. agriculture, but it wouldn't mean that sudenly everywhere else is gone too.
The Russian Empire and the USSR were completely different. Germany didn't beat Russia, Russia collapsed on itself and then Germany started occupying territories until Lenin signed a peace treaty.
The USSR, on the other hand, had very little dissent, and had a huge will to fight. Unlike Russia, they were also supported by the second largest industry in the world, and were producing more tanks and aircrafts than anybody else.
Yeah fight where tanks are most effective, against the country that invented the T34
>The Russian Empire and the USSR were completely different. Germany didn't beat Russia, Russia collapsed on itself and then Germany started occupying territories until Lenin signed a peace treaty.
This is so wrong holy shit.
>The USSR, on the other hand, had very little dissent
Which is why they had to execute hundreds of thousands of people and deport millions to gulags, right? Which is also why they spent about a decade dealing with partisans too. Because there was literally no dissent towards the USSR.
>muh T-34
target practice for German Tigers and Panthers
>target practice for German Panzers and Hetzers
FTFY
>This is so wrong holy shit.
It's entirely right. Russia was doing badly, but they only actually lost during their civil war.
>Which is why they had to execute hundreds of thousands of people and deport millions to gulags, right? Which is also why they spent about a decade dealing with partisans too. Because there was literally no dissent towards the USSR.
They had no dissent because they were harsh with traitors. Was there a civil war in the USSR during ww2? Was there any large-scale rebellion? Any large-scale strikes or protests?
No to all of that. They were a pretty united country. The only thing close to dissent were a few people like cossacks and some Ukrainians who volunteered to help Germany because they were still butthurt about the socialist system.
>Stalin signing peace
He'd move all the way to Krasnoyarsk if he needed to.
>they were very unified as long as you ignore the millions of people that weren't and were brutally murdered for opposing the goverment and everyone else who dissented-to-rule to the very last day
Holy shit that makes sense. I guess Nazi Germany was pretty peacefull and unified too as long as you ignore all the kikes they had to gas.
they managed to win just 2 decades earlier without mass genocide tho
OP why don't you be honest you got those ideas from Hitler and Mannerheim recording and Suvorov's Icebreaker?
eh, the attack was more for the resources of the USSR rather than fear of the Soviet Union proper, all the propaganda against Communism and fears of a Soviet first-strike made it reasonable to attack outright.
Hitler's real fears was Germany's reliance on the USSR for oil and iron shipments, which was agreed upon in the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact that the Soviets would supply Germany with the oil they needed to prosecute the war in Western Europe.
But as the war went on, Germany was still consuming around 25% more oil than they could produce domestically, with the deficits being made up in Soviet shipments, giving Stalin economic leverage over Hitler with the threat of an embargo to grind the Wehrmacht's war machine to a halt within a year or 2.
Hitler's nightmare was the threat of that embargo, and sought to seize the industrial and resource centers he needed to continue sustaining his empire to remove the threat of dependence on the Soviets, or any foreign power for that matter, so the invasion and the eventual colonization of Eastern Europe was drawn up.
The war of annihilation was necessary to Hitler as the capture of Eastern Europe was aimed to be a long term conquest and integration into Greater Germany proper, but setting aside so many troops and war material to carry out all the atrocities against civilians while at the same time taking on the titanic Soviet Union all at once strained German resources even thinner, along with forcing the civilians you're murdering take up partisan action against soldiers and supply lines.
Quints confirm, wehraboos absolutely assblasted
The T34 was either equal or better than its German counterparts at all points in the war.
yes but that was with a very different Russia that they were facing. One in which only one in ten russian soldiers was literate. One where the entirety of the Russian army lacked any organization or infrastructure.