Why do Catholics so frequently depict Mary without Christ? We Orthodox only do that depictions of the Annunciation...

Why do Catholics so frequently depict Mary without Christ? We Orthodox only do that depictions of the Annunciation. Also, Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and the Throne of God, which is why we often depict Christ on her lap; but in the Guadalupe work, Christ is confined to and Mary is rather using him as a throne. Why? And isn't it heretical to call Mary "co-redemptrix"? True, she gave birth to Christ, but while the birth makes redemption possible, Christ's births part of the redemptive act, which is the Crucifixion-Resurrection, and Mary did participate in that.

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Not catholic anymore but I will try to answer.

Catholic art does not follow the rules of Iconography. So there is no rule spoken or unspoken that she has to be put next to Christ.

The co-redemptrix thing is controversial. The advocates of it do not mean to imply she is equal to Christ but that she played a role in Christs redemption of man. I think the last pope didn't like the term and called it misleading.

Now if you're asking if many Catholics go beyond the traditional limits on saints and in practice worship Mary I would say yes. Though Catholic doctrine would consider doing such heretical

Christ is God. Mary is the Mother of Christ, hence the Mother of God. Hence her importance and long standing rite in Catholic tradition. You can look up on the Dogma of Mary in the Catholic Church.

>Catholic art does not follow the rules of Iconography.
Not even when it used in churches or for veneration?

Mary is the Mother of God in Orthodoxy as well

Accept the goodness of Our Lady into your heart, take her as your personal confidant, express your love for Christ through her and keep a sense of her presence and blessing with you all day, every day during our sojourn on this earth and you shall never, ever fail or stumble.

Make the right choice, my brothers and sisters, whatever your denomination may be. Our Lady is waiting for you. She has always been waiting for you.

I love Our Lady more than words can express and will resolve from this day forth to always serve her. My own wants, vanities, and delusions mean NOTHING and I pray that Mary my mother may occupy every inch of my soul and edge out these foul human vices and fill that space with her own holiness, her own perfect humility, her own serene peace, her own perfect union with her Son our Blessed Lord, of whom every blade of grass, every grain of sand and every wisp of breath in the cold air proclaims the presence and the glory.

O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

Pray for us, oh Holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Then you should understand her importance alone by herself.

No Mary, no Jesus
Know Mary, know Jesus

>MOMMYY

Semiramis is a goddess on her own right user.

I understand her importance, but I do not understand these Catholic practices. How does her importance as the throne of God warrant Christ being confined to the margins of Guadalupe and serving as HER throne? How does her importance as the mother of God warrant iconography of her without Christ? We would never follow these practices

Like many of the trappings Catholicism adopted, depictions of the Mother Mary were adapted to appeal to pagan religions, and more particularly the religious practices of various regions in Latin America.


Jesus wasn't born on Christmas day, and he wasn't crucified on Easter Sunday either, they were all picked up to market the religion.

Why do you guys depict other saints separately from Christ on icons?.

Because worshiping a dude is kind of gay so we made ourselves a goddess instead.

And co-redemtrix isn't a dogma of the Catholic Church. It's a theological opinion which some hold.

Because South and Central Americans are fucking insane

Neither the virgin nor the saints were born or lived most of their lives being holy, this makes them feel slightly more approachable to the common person.

Because she is the Mother of God. If she's the Mother of God, she's pretty great herself. Look that shit up.

she is a waifu for otherwise celibate monks.
they need something to wank to.

because mary a CUTE, orthofags would never understand

>he fell for the yeshua meme

1000 years in the future people like you will worship El Che as a God

Because most saints aren't venerated specifically for being his mother. That is, after all, what puts her in a special category beyond even the angels in holiness.

Just read Aquinas the thread

She's the mother of God to us too, we generally depict her above the altar, hold Christ, sometimes with the words "more spacious than the heavens" since even the heavens could not contain God. We pray to her every Sunday service, and kiss her icon in reverence. But we are still put off by Catholic practices

Well then you're weird.

this, Mother Mary is the original pure waifu

Icons for us are expressions of mystical facts. We identify beauty with truth. Maybe that is why our aesthetic is consistent and isn't everchanging to pander to the Zeitgeist

>our aesthetic is consistent
Lol, fucking bullshit. You're not making pics like the early middle ages, so calm down Ivan.

Christ was risen on Easter Sunday, which among the Orthodox is called "Pascha" and uses lunar calculation to take place after Passover.

Christmas was calculated by the date of John the Baptist's conception (six months before Christ's in the Bible).

store.ancientfaith.com/icons/

Well you're fucking weird. Perceptions change, so does art. Get you shit together, Nikolas.

We have no use for relativism in the Church. Sacred art should exalt the Absolute, not the relative

Men are relativistic by nature. Art is meant for men, not God.

no

Not in Orthodoxy. In Orthodoxy, art is a part of worship, which is oriented toward God, not man.

This is not art then, but entertainment.

You will never please God, you dumb creature.

Didn't know that.

Ever notice how these Orthodox LARP threads are never by people claiming Greek Orthodoxy, but always Russian/OCA types?

Slavshits, don't entertain their nonsense.

It's just Constantine sans his trip. He came back from his horse orgy and will shitpost for a few weeks before being driven away by people who actually know what they're talking about.

Pagan goddess worship inserted into Christianity, plain and simple, Mary was mortal, still a sinner, and died a physical death (as opposed to Jesus dying and being resurrected) Yes she obviously has a place in the overall story of the Bible , but she herself can't absolve you of sin, pure idolatry , Jesus never said "worship me AND my Mom", it's just about Jesus.

>still a sinner
Mary was born without the original Sin, since she was the Mother of God.
>died a physical death
So did Jesus.

Yeah, I'd been away for a while, but this is definitely Constantine's MO. Not only starting multiple Orthodox "proselytization" threads, but threadjacking numerous others. It's fucking pathetic.

Assbaby

>Mary was born without the original sin
Heresy. Mary was human, and like the rest of us, she had original sin. It was Jesus' divine nature that makes him sinless.

Also: scripture that supports not putting Mary on the same level as Jesus is more apparent in Jesus' own attitude toward his blood relatives during his life.

Matthew 12:47-50
47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

The very title : "Queen of heaven" and "Mother of god" is also heretical-sounding in itself in implying that Mary is even ABOVE God in the hierarchical sense.

Cont.

Bible also says don't pray/consult with the dead, (Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3)

(Deuteronomy 18:10-11King James Version (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.)

(Necromancy (/ˈnɛkrəˌmænsi, -roʊ-/[1][2]) is a supposed practice of magic involving communication with the deceased – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge, to bring someone back from the dead, or to use the deceased as a weapon, as the term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.[3][4])

Isaiah 19:3(KJV)

3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

This is why praying to saints and Mary in general is also heretical because they all still physically died unlike Jesus , who again, died and was RESURRECTED (conquered death itself in the physical as well as spiritual sense).

Hope this helps God Bless...

The only Church that matters is the Catholic Church. Get your heretic Protestant shit outta here.

To be fair, "mother of god" is an entirely orthodox formulation. It's more a theological/christological statement than a marian one. "Queen of heaven," on the other hand, is absolutely haram.

>We Orthodox
Stopped reading right there, loser.

Just let him get his rocks off.

From a psychological/symbolic perspective she represents the ocean (in Latin 'mare' means 'sea'). It's no coincidence Mary Star of the Sea is always depicted as wearing a striking blue shawl and being teary.

The ocean is a symbol for oneness, togetherness, the origin of life, the womb, disintegration, de-individualisation, the place we seek/return to, the unknown, mystery, even death.

Appealing to Mary is a way to engage with these deep aspects of our psychology through a safe symbolic medium. She mediates our dissolution from this existence to the next and guides us through. This is why she is associated with the birth of christ (the transition from the womb to life) and the crucifiction (the transition from life to death). She is present in our own practices at funerals and graves, often more than christ. The Mexicans have turned her into a death god with a skull face which is consistent with her essential function.

Tl;dr she's so popular because she represents the oceanic feeling of oneness and guides us through transitions between different states in life.

2meta4me

Jung had an interesting theological interpreation of Mary. It involves the idea that the Christian trinity is imperfect: partly because a fully complete mind in his system is composed of 4 parts, not 3, and partly because the trinity lacks an inner opposite to balance itself out.

He narrowed down the potential candidates to the 4th part of God to 2 choices: Sophia and the Devil. He eventually went with Sophia.

Now before someone says Sophia is a Gnostic deity, she's actually cannon in the Orthodox branch and in Judaism.

Mary is the earthly incarnation of Sophia. In other words since Jesus is fully divine it must mean both his parents are also divine (if one of them were only human he would be a half deity). This isn't to say that Mary is a distinct goddess but another aspect of the Godhead.

He beleived that the Catholics had unconsciously accepted the divinity of Mary when they cannonized the ascension.

>Now before someone says Sophia is a Gnostic deity, she's actually cannon in the Orthodox branch and in Judaism.
She's canon in Catholicism too. Although not in the way Jung described it. At least exoterically.

Wow it's official than.

You have a 4 part God-head.

God the Father
Sophia/Mary the Mother
Jesus the Son
and the Holy spirit which connects them all

Is there an artistic representation of this, in medieval art for example? Like a Christian mandala? I think i saw some in a book once but i can't remember which.

>ITT: yet another "WE ARE MORE CHRISTIAN THAN X" thread by the Kremlin-cucked Church.

I don't know art history. I know Jung's theory and he sort of views the deification of Mary as something that happened over centuaries, something slowly discovered as spirtuality developed. Her role and power just kept getting bigger through out history, he measured this by some long study that listed the number or miracles attributed to her in each century. He noted their number increases as time went on and really started rising at an expontial rate after her ascension was confirmed. In other words she is getting stronger as people focus on her more.

>needing mary

Cute picture.

The point is that some people will be spiritually alienated from a religion with no image of women in the God-head, in other words they will instinctively reject it and no theological arguement will be of interest to them. They might be someone that wants a spiritual mother or an ambitious seeking an image of power to relate to.

Like it or not attraction to one religion over another is decided by psychological needs.

No, as far as I know the rules on Iconography developed in the east because of the Iconoclasm controversy and never caught on in the west, though occasionally some art is done in the Greek style its meanly an aesthetic choice, and does not hold a special spiritual significance, or at least not one above Renaissance or even modern depictions of Jesus and the saints.