>By late 1241, Subutai was discussing plans to invade the Holy Roman Empire, when news came of the death of Ögedei Khan. Over the objections of Subutai, the Mongol Princes withdrew the army to Mongolia for the election of a new Great Khan. The death of Ögedei effectively put an end to the Mongol invasion of Europe
What would happen if he beat the HRE?
Subutai was the only good Mongol.
>you will never see German get MONGOL'd
HRE might collapse completely or Mongols would install various kings with ties to Mongol dynasty to rule over Europe.
Hulagu khan subjugated the muslims in Middle East, or was in the process of it. They were fighting the mamluks in around Egypt I believe at some point.
So if they get both the Christian/Muslim empires to collapse mongols might have much greater impact on the world/society. Its likely HRE/Christian missionaries would influence the Mongols as well, so there might actually be a decent chance of strong mongol presence for a while.
The reason mongols collapsed in our time is because HRE was ignored (and they ignored the Mongols for the most part) and Middle East was pushed. The muslims took the initiative in influencing Berke's religion and politics because they were facing extinction. Since the Hulagu didn't have greater support from Christians and Buddhist Khans were far to the East, he was left to defend against two factions. The Muslims to the west and the Berke to the North whom they allied with. If the Christians had supported Hulagu, this would put an end to Berke's rebellion and Muslims would have been crushed. If this were to happen, chances are Christian Mongol and Buddhist Mongols would likely have greater connections. Europe might be more Buddhist as a result.
A buddhist christian syncretic religion would be awesome
Its called Manicheanism. St. Augustine was heavily influenced by Mani in his early years.
So the notion isn't that far off. The Arabs tried banning it. If the mongols come into power in ME, I think they'd listen more closely, especially since this would tie the two neutral religions Buddhism/Christianity together and create a strong Eastern/Western mongol dynasties.
The mongols were already influenced by Manicheanism before Ghengis rose to power.
And everyone tried banning it not just the muslims. The Chinese called them devil worshipers that need to be culled
>Implying mongols could successfully invade the HRE during the 1200's
Don't be silly
>HRE was stronger than the Jin Chinese, Song Chinese and all the the Middle east.
Don't be silly. The only thing that could have stopped the Mongols was being over stretched. Militarily they would have slaughtered the HRE.
If we consider the Ayubid and the HRE to be equal during the time, HRE would've collapsed easily. Ayubid was easily taken over by the mongols, that was right after the Siege of Jerusalem.
The > was not in any shape or form better prepared for the mongols than fucking china or baghdad were.
hmmm guess they just got lucky at Liegnitz then
Subutai would probably have to face a competent military commander for the first time in his life and then run back to Mongolia
Name one semi-decent commander.
He pushes forward and mows down everything in his path until he reaches the beaches of Iberia. Europe is slaughtered. The Mongols estimated that they could push through Europe in 10 years, and by God, they would have done it. Cultural centers and bastions of Christianity are wiped out, as their rulers make the foolish mistake of refusing to surrender, a mistake which lead to the destruction of other civilizations the Mongols touched. Rome and all that it contains is razed to the ground. Ultimately, advances in mathematics, science, history, are reversed centuries. So much information is lost that it makes the Library of Alexandria fire look like the burning of a bookshelf at the public library. The Mongol invasion means that Europe does not advance enough to become the power that it is today. It starts to look far more like the Middle East or China, in terms of technological and societal development, and our contemporary standards of living is centuries away.
t.eurofag
....Legnica was a Mongol victory.
Your horse nigger dick sucking is cringey.
Mongols couldn't even conquer fucking hungary lmao.
mongols2stronk
>tfw no european/central asian admixture offspring from the glorious wave of Mongol conquest to call your wife
It's like why even live
Ayubid was by that point a hollow rotting shell of its former self.
>Holy
>Mongol
>Khaganate
It actually sounds really fucking cool.
Stopped by the fact there are like castles everywhere, just like in Hungary, even more so in the HRE than usual
>ywn be a member of a travelling order of Tengrist Knights fighting in the name of the Khan of Rome
Fuck my life
Stop being a faggot
Horse archers are pussies, full plate jousting is where it's at
>Ultimately, advances in mathematics, science, history,
As if any of that was being done in Europe at that time.
It was the Islamic centers of education and academia which were pushing those boundaries.
>muh castles
>muh deus vult
Couldnt even fucking stop sandniggers from taking a third of europe. sad
Islam ultimately would not pervade europe, but europe could be overall weaker, and more fragmented.
I doubt the Mongols would have kept the HRE for more than a few decades before a general feudal revolt happened like in Russia or France gets in on the game and grabs a few territories.
Had the leadership of the Mongols stayed united however, Poland, Bohemia, Croatia and Hungary were certainly doomed, as they could not beat the Mongols in pitched battles. The HRE was a lot less centralised and therefore had better overall chances of long term survival, they could build coalitions based on the duchies, free cities, and bishoprics and wreck the Mongols with their superior technology. Also HRE had many more castles and fortifications than Poland or Hungary.
Yeah, the castles that horseniggers couldn't bypass.
>Europe had better technology than China in the 1200-1300s
Weak bait
They already did that a lot, just not forming a new religion from it. And don't say something would be "awesome" for "aesthetics" when you aren't one yourself, that's cringeworthy and why people hate history 'fans'
It's funny how this is acknowledged as a voluntary retreat while Ain Jalut isn't. Most of their army was gone before the battle for the same reason.
The chances of them beating the HRE the usual way are slim, it would require a campaign on the scale of the campaign in China over years despite being far from their homeland and having to keep to peace in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.
Their best hope would be allying with the papacy (against the HRE antipope) by converting to Catholicism (if just for show) and using shock and their European allies to usurp the Holy Roman Emperor. They would then have to negotiate with the states of the HRE, the Pope and other Europeans to preserve their position because while they are a formidable force that could lay waste to vast areas, they could never take all the castles and river crossings while losing an elite soldier to crossbows every so often, it is risky and they would eventually be driven out.
Besides southern china did the mongols conquer any land in which the terrain didnt hinder hprse archery. It seems that the mongols were about as close as they could be for the maximum expasion of steppe empire.
>Deus Vult mentioned no where
>still reply to it
By sand niggers you mean Iberia i assume, they used more mass infantry than cavalry, if you mean the balkans and lower Hungary then those were weak states against an empire
Frederick II
They and their Chinese/Persian siege engineers would blow through like 10 or 12 castles, but their horses would run out of grazing land well before they'd gotten through all of the HRE and then they'd fuck off to richer lands.
Korea (which is pretty mountainous), India if you count the Mughals,
Ain Jalut happened after Hulagu left but Ain Jalut was still a battle that the Mongols lost, followed by the battles of Elbistan and Homs, and eventually Marj as Saffar, which they also lost. They only defeated the Mamluks once
Except the Mongols had those too. Mongol lancer wee fully armed and armored, and used a two hand lance that was longer than contemporary European lances. Mongol lancers would also aim for the horse rather than the rider, because dismounted melee troops are of zero threat to the mongols.
wrongo
They had lamellar not full plate or did thinking about the holy Khaganate of Rum make your head fuzzy
>we live in the world where autistic, nomad-loving faggots were deprived of this retarded fantasy
And all it took was the death of one Khan. Stay irrelevant Mongolcucks.
is this really the attack this knight would choose to make with that weapon?
>The mongols could take walled cities
>this is proof they could sustain thoudands of individual sieges on the thousands of castles in Europe
As much as its an interesting idea the logistical requirements would be insane.
Sure its easy to capture a handful of well defended cities in China, the middle east and eastern Europe but the deeper you get the more autistic Europeans were with their castles.
Their best hope would be a few decisive battles shattering the HREs unity so they could divide and conquer and make more client states diplomaticly.
Europe didn't have full plate in the 1200's. Mail shirts were still the norm, with some leg/arm armor being plate.
> Sure its easy to capture a handful of well defended cities in China, the middle east and eastern Europe but the deeper you get the more autistic Europeans were with their castles.
Most major cities in China were walled. Song dynasty records state that a major city (metropolitan population of > 50,000) without a wall was the minority. Some cities were more fortified than others, but the protection of the big cities (Xian, Luyong, Beijing, etc.) were comparable to that of Constantinople.
What a colossal mistake, holy shit. If ancestor worship was correct, those princes must be gnashing their teeth at thought of how they fucked their own empire in the ass while thinking they did the right thing.
His point is the Chinese had high pop density and thus easier to take out than the Europeans
Nothig since mongols were btfod by stone castles already in hungary. You cant siege castles and towns with horseback archery so that
You realise the Mongols had Chinese siege engineers, right? They were perfectly capable of taking out fortresses, as they did across central asia and China.
How did the Mamluks beat the crap out of the Mongols?
They didn't, they beat a small garrison and captured a single fortress.
Could Central Europe support the sheer number of horses the Mongols would bring with them? How much grazeland would the HRE even have--enough to support the multiple sieges to get through castle autism?
There is this theory that unseasonable rain turned hungary into a swamp and that is why the Mongols left. Reasoning that they didn't even leave a garrison behind to keep Hungary.
Before that neither the Huns, Avars, Magyars and several other nomadic tribes settled beyond Hungary.
In China the mongol army became a conventional infantry force that included more Han chinese than Mongols by the time they conquered the Song dynasty. In Europe they'd have to do the same thing.
10 seconds before that knight loses an arm.
>go to sleep
>camp gets raided by Hungarian hussars
>all your engineers got killed
>all your engineers died walking from FUCKING CHINA to Austria
>you run out of siege materials or have the wrong type of wood
They didn't, they beat one small fleeing army, but when the crusader states let them pass they got throughly BTFO by the mongols
This implies they learn to change forces and can raise the correct types of trooops who don't fear excommunication
>>go to sleep
>>camp gets raided by Hungarian hussars
>>all your engineers got killed
>>all your engineers died walking from FUCKING CHINA to Austria
This is the dumbest argument ever. Muh Knights are unbeatable.
>Medieval Military Leaders are dumb
>Just like raid the camp and kill the King LOL
And how do they get these engineers to Europe? Maintain a siege while you send a message calling for them, then wait for them to walk to you?
You can't just build a barracks and instantly spawn any unit on your tech tree.
Siege engineers weren't warlocks, it took over a week to breach Kiev's wooden walls with a dedicated army, castles by contrast are not burdened with encompassing a city, are located in difficult to reach places with natural barriers, there are dozens of them dotted everywhere and there is little reward or strategic significance to taking one after you've demolished the fortifications, they are purpose built to fuck with an invading army.
The Mongols could bring supplies with them and live off the land, but they were not going to secure supply lines and control the land as they could on the open steppes.
Well, they kinda took siege equipments and engineers with them during their march. That's basically how they took those fortresses and walled cities in China and middle east.
Mughals and mongols were very different and it would be wrong tovconsider part kf the same phenomenah. Korean and China are both very near to the Mongol Heartland unlike the HRE or the Eastern Levant.
Yes. The logistics problem of a broken Europe was due to having weak centralized power. A strong government center can easily sustain mongol horses in European campaign. A strong government that mongol will install. Its all about governance and the ability to levy taxes. They did it with China, they did it with the Arabs and they can certainly deal with the Europe.
Rain turning away mongols are a possibility. A very small possibility. "Dude Great Khan, ayy lmao the rain man. Its because of rain that we have to abandan conquering the western nations"
Do you know what a joke is? The khan would laugh at Subutai if this was the reason for his return. Here, a man whose total loyal to Khan's vision of conquering everything under the sky, fled the west because of the rain.
LEL.
>Before that neither the Huns, Avars, Magyars and several other nomadic tribes settled beyond Hungary.
The Huns reigned a short while but they pushed well into the far reaches of the Europe. The others aren't organized at all to the degree the Huns were. And the Huns were basically diet-mongols. A greater mongol campaign like the one launched to the Middle East would simply crush Europe. Not to mention the the southern mongol force can help push up north while the northern mongols can push westward. Europe would be fucked regardless.
Problems of supply train a bit of a myth. Mongols controlled all lands in between. There would be taxes raised in Middle East and Europe to fund their war.
>Mughals and mongols were very different
''Mughal'' literally means ''Mongol'' in Indian.
That's like saying the Hungarians are actually Huns.
t. clueless horse nigger
Why does literally everyone ignore the second Mongol invasion of Hungary?
Founder of Mughal is a great-great grandson of Genghis Khan. Its a direct mongol lineage.
That was after the Golden Horde had betrayed the mongols and the mongols were not united. Golden Horde choose to attack their own mongol and ally with the muslims. This defeated the Ilkhanate khanate in Middle East. With their own ally gone, an ally who were in good terms with the main Kublai Khan of the east and the Chagatai as a neutral party, the Golden Horde practically lost all support from mongol branch.
So the reason people ignore the second invasion is because its after the breakup of mongol unity, which happened with Berke(golden horde) attacking (and allying himself with the Mamluks) Hulagu's forces in Middle East due to Berke's islamic conversion.
So you can think of the second invasion as 1/4 of the mongol force without any support from other 3 mongol factions.
there is no beating the HRE
theres is beating austria and conquest of vienna
theres saxony, bavaria, pomerania, brandenburg, cologne, frankfurt and many many many other dutchies that can decide to help eachother or use the mongols to achieve their own goals
its also a challange they havent tested yet, since germany is mainly forrested area with one of the most modern and numerous well financied armies medieval states can field
Damn mongol empire
That's what you get for letting your Samoyed lick your DNA sample
>germany hasn't been challenged
>muh forest
en.wikipedia.org
Please. Don't make me laugh
learn to read please
Germany was tested. Its neighbors tested.
They weren't a challenge despite your ideal pride of superior german army.
>Even fucking Poland started to successfully fight back against the Mongol empire before they retreated
Mongols were super impressive but they weren't the be-all-end-all-death-incarnate. China and the Middle East were conquered due to a combination of brilliant strategy and good luck, you had a divided fighting China and a weakened Ayubid. The defeat of the European force sent to Russia from Europe is due to a split command structure on the European side, good strategy and, invaluably, help from the Russian locals and knights.
>Belligerents
>Mongol Empire
>Kingdom of Poland
>Margraviate of Moravia
>Knights Templar
Poles
Moravians
Germans
>Templars
>German
>Even fucking Poland
Poland was pretty strong in medieval period.
The Mongols were beaten by Hungary when they did what the HRE has been doing for centuries already: building castles, relying on heavy cavalry and crossbowmen.
en.wikipedia.org
There is no way in hell the Mongols could have beaten the HRE.
Also, it should be considered that the Battle of Legnica was fought under anything but favourable conditions. The army under Henry the Pious was composed of remnants of a fractured Polish army, a handful of Silesian knights, most of them sworn to his household, and whether there were any order knights were present (e.g. Templars, like the Wikipedia article claims) cannot be confirmed, and otherwise mostly untrained citizens, craftsmen and miners from the city that were hastily mobilised in defence. Henry the Pious could have withdrawn and met up with the Bohemian King who was arriving with an army, but he chose not to in order to protect the citizens - even if it meant having to fight under such unfavourable conditions. The Mongols had roughly 10,000 men under their command, Henry had barely 4000 - and many of them not even properly trained and equipped.
see United mongol was gone. It was now a single faction that was cutoff.
True, but they did have relatively friendly terrain for a steppe people to conquer
China and Middle East were won with the help of the locals too.
Because Russian locals and other local people joined mongols, mongols would be defeated? lol
Mongol recruitment were very effective. So its not a negative for a mongol in Europe to recruit from locals. Divide/conquer is a strategy mongols are familiar with. Europe during the time of the first mongol invasion was completely divided in power structure. Europe would never be able to effectively push back mongols if they decided to push further. Europe's lack of effective central government similar to the old Roman empire is what would make Europe easy for mongols if they had decided to fully invade it.
Subutai's plan for europe before being called by was to conquer Europe within 10-15 years. That was his initial plan, however because of how successful he was initially with the frontiers, the estimate maybe a conservative one. Europe may very well fall within 5-10 years instead if mongols actually continued their plans. Not only would Subutai be leading the European invasion from the east, Mongols of the Middle East would also join in on the raid from there. While its known that Ogedei's death saved Europe from mongol invasion, its also noted that his successor, Guyuk, also wanted to push into Europe. However because of chronic alcoholism within the mongol family, the succesor khan died in under 2 years of his reign.
The short succession led to drift in mongol priorities. While the mongols were still interested in conquering all there is, they were also prioritizing different parts of the world. Mongols wanted the Christians to submit to and fight with the khans because doing so means mongol protection and reclamation of Jerusalem + seige on Bagdhad.
>easy to capture handful of well defended cities in China
lol Most cities in China were well defended. There were not a "handful of cities" in China, but rather hundreds of well defended cities. Not only that, Sieges on these cities could last years if pushed without any supply from outside. If supply line continues, decades. Meanwhile sieges in Europe are measured in months and would have no way to feed whoever's inside if it lasts any longer.
The only reason castles were avoided were because risk/reward analysis wasn't rewarding. A tiny castle with few dozens nets nothing when all the surrounding villagers/village/livestock/food are outside and not defended. Destroying the surrounding area becomes much more effective strategy. Especially when the initial mongol "invasion" was mainly a scouting force.
It would have turned Europe into Islam. There's no way the Mongols would have tolerated clergies bossing them around.
Its adapt or die. There's always people who are willing to adapt. Everyone did to the mongols. Every religion mongols patronized adapted to mongol request.
tfw live in urumqi and go out with qt kazakhs, mongols, and uyghurs on a weekly basis
But they dont have power to siege a castle do they?
>ywn die in a last stand against the golden horde in the 2nd battle of the catalaunic fields
Except they do.
They were really good at it actually
Mamluks sound badass, where can I read more about them?
>tfw fell for a qt kyrgyz half rus half kazakh-kyrgyz grill
Let me tell you my niggas, eurasians are literally the masterrace. Post pics of qt eurasian grills, I need to drown my sorrow.
>The Chinese called them devil worshipers
The Chinese do that to fucking everything.
Falun Gong which practices truthfulness and compassion will get you thrown in prison and literally tortured in modern China.
Canadian Chinese people in China get held there and tortured for meditating indoors.
are east asians and native americans really that similar, genetically?
Crossing of Bering Strait was done by east asians. Their DNA is only about 10,000 years since the migration happened in multiple instances.
>>beat HRE
He can't. Most likely he and his army get ambushed in a forest somewhere in germany and get slaughtered. Furthermore, the mongols could not wage the sort of campaign they waged in china in europe due to the sheer logistical difficulty involved. The mongols can raid the HRE, they cannot destroy it.
>Blue eyes/Blonde hair and asian features
MUH DICK!
>mfw the chinks want to get rid of this
WHY