>mfe reading about the 9th army and 12th army of the wehrmacht in ww2
>those thousands of deaths to rescue wounded soldiers
>that desperation holdout that saved 25k 9th army men
>those artillery gunners that fought to the death so that women and children coukd cross the bridge
FUCK my feels.
The Sixth Army also is a sad story.
>Taking Stalingrad, the fighting is tough, but they're making progress
>Command neglects the defensive lines around them
>Reds wipe out the Romanians that were holding the flanks and completely surround the city
>Instead of punching through enemy lines and getting the men out, Hitler is convinced by the Luftwaffe that the Sixth Army can survive by dropping supplies by air
>Surprise: they can't because the Luftwaffe lost too many aircraft against the Britbongs
>728,000 men lost their lives
>After their defeat, Hitler called them weaklings and cowards even though it was his decision that led them to their deaths
what did we learn children?
germans are tactical retards
Yeah, let's just pretend that Manstein, Guderian, Rundstedt, and countless other Germans commanders both in WWII and throughout history never existed.
wasnt enough when hitler was a brain dead retard when it came to tactics
never let g*rmans be in charge of logistics either, they fuck that up too
I sure his condemnation was intended to be temporary, and he intended to be like "I was just trying to convince you we can still win, the sixth was actually PRIME EVROPE."
hahaha when will germs learn
Guderian pretty much invented mechanized warfare, the man was a fucking genius tactician. If it weren't for Hitler and corruption with the General Staff of the German Army, he could've done more to help the Wehrmacht in those crucial months after Stalingrad.
Stormniggers will never admit it but Hitler was the worst fucking thing to happen to the German Army, all the talent wasted....
Whoops. Guess they shouldn't have jewishly violated NAP and waged a war of industrial genocide against an entire subset of the white race. None of this is sadder than the siege of St. Petersburg. Or more pathetic than the gutless Allies and their repeated betrayals- the first proper blooding of the Wehrmacht should've been in the Sudetenland.
Leave it to the faggot Huns to ruin Christianity, ruin monarchism, ruin nationalism, and to ruin the EU and embrace Islam the second they're let off the leash. Faggot Stalin should've taken off the kiddy gloves and gotten rid of them for good.
the 6th army was destroyed multiple times, i dont think they were shamed, they wouldnt reestablish it otherwise
hitler was a socialist retard
if he never had an autistic fit then Britain would have kept his empire
Tfw no anne frank gf
>Hitler was the worst fucking thing to happen to the German Army, all the talent wasted....
He was the worst thing to happen to Germany overall
Fuck off with your shitty meme. She isn't even attractive.
>728,000 men lost their lives
6th army had 246k troops at Stalingrad
No way open borders and free welfare for millions of male migrants was a great tactic
I was talking total losses on the Axis side, including Italian, Romanian, Hungarian, and other Germans not attached to the Sixth Army.
>muhh poor german soldiers dindu nufin
Wehrnggers need to die
There's no doubt Germans committed terrible crimes during WWII. But so did the Allies. It's war, there are no rules.
>It's war, there are no rules
en.wikipedia.org
>Comparing industrial genocide to firebombing
Stormfag/10
Wow, a bunch of arbitrary rules made by a bunch of bureaucrats who had never seen the horrors of modern warfare. You would be surprised how fast people abandon their honor when confronted with the situations that those soldiers faced.
I'm not even talking about the firebombing. I'm talking about the rapes, the murder of civilians, the complete destruction of entire communities. Both sides committed these crimes.
Even if the allies had committed twice as many crimes and killed twice as many innocents, it wouldn't come close to moral equivalency for a regime that wanted to:
Wipe out several ethnicities
Enslave and work to death several countries worth of people
Strip a generation of children from their parents
Suppress partisans by eradicating villages
Recruit scum like Oskar dirgelwanger, and then empower him
Create a global empire based on pseudoscience, economic parasitism (see tooze's wages of destruction), and the rejection of any pre fuhrer morality
Need I go on?
IT'S THE END, THE WAR HAS BEEN LOST
KEEPING THEM SAFE 'TIL THE RIVER'S BEEN CROSSED
NICHT EIN SCHLACHT, EIN RETTINGSAKTION
HOLDING THEIR GROUND 'TIL THE FINAL PLATOON
HURRY UP, WE'RE WAITING FOR YOU
MEN OF THE 9TH AND CIVILIANS TOO
DISPOSSESSED, SURRENDERING TO THE WEST
I'm going to guess that you've never stood in a soldier's boots. When you get right down to it, all those Wehrmacht soldiers were fighting for was their country and their people. Does that make them any different from the Soviets or the Americans or the British or the French? When you're in that environment, with death around every corner, sitting on the other side of every hill, it doesn't matter whether your actions are good or evil. All that matters is living, and coming back alive to your family and friends in the end. What I'm trying to say is that soldiers are judged based on the infantile concept of right and wrong by people who have never been in their position. War transcends right and wrong, there's no morality to it, just the living and the dead.
>hitler was a socialist retard
t. american that thinks privatization of industry is socialism
>tactical nihilism
>soldiers know no morality, even though Germans consciously treated different groups better or worse depending on if they felt like following the conventions that day
>most of the killings were done by non Wehrmacht units, but were sanctioned by the heer
You're really using the "war is rough, so even our purposefully genocidal actions are ok even though they often served just to worsen partisan situations and make the world hate us" arguement?
Do you want to claim that operation cottbus was about soldiers worrying about death any day, that the liquidation of the polish upper class was about the average soldier, or that the einzastsgruppen served a legitimate military purpose?
Your weak tactical nihilism and moral relativism is a shitty defense, and you know it.
Reddit will be better for you sweetie
>You would be surprised
>Im a soldierbruh itotally played COD bruh
>how fast people abandon their honor when confronted with the situations that those soldiers faced.
>like when the nazis started bombing Belgrade for no reason and without a declaration of war
>and yet Werhboos complain about Dresden
>Wehrmacht soldiers were fighting for was their country and their people
That's why they attacked Denmark, Netherlands, Belgium, Norway? Really makes you think
Like I said, when your life is hanging by a thread, you're not going to give two shits about what happens to a bunch of villagers who may or may not have been planting mines in the nearby swamps. You clearly don't understand what it's like to fight in a war where every person you meet along the way could be plotting to kill you and your entire squad the moment you turn your back.
Thanks, sweetie, much love to you MWAH
>men of the wehrmacht were evil
Proceeds to tell us how evil the nazi regime in general is. Every nazi was in the wehrmacht but not every man in the wehrmacht was a nazi. Why is this so hard for people to grasp
>Both sides committed these crimes.
>implying the Allies massacred millions of people of certain ethnicity to exterminate them
>it was war it's totally okay to slaughter whole villages cause hurr so grim
Not going to sugar coat war but even the 2nd most barbaric soviet army doesn't even come close to what the Germans did.
>Like I said, when your life is hanging by a thread, you're not going to give two shits about what happens to a bunch of villagers who may or may not have been planting mines in the nearby swamps.
LOL that's from that shitty movie a few years back and this is not what happened on the Eastern front.
en.wikipedia.org
en.wikipedia.org
>You clearly don't understand what it's like to fight in a war where every person you meet along the way could be plotting to kill you and your entire squad the moment you turn your back.
Well said fellow marine brother. I sarved in 666 Marines SS batalion and I know that war is hell. SAMPER WI FI
>Wehrmacht soldiers were fighting for was their country and their people
So who was attacking them on their country? And how did the war end?
>doesn't address the broadly genocidal nature of the Reich
>doesn't address the non military low threat massacres
>doesn't address the ss extermination units
>doesn't address generalplan ost or the hunger plan
The vague shield of "war is rough, so all rules go out the window and all soldiers become genocidal sociopaths, which is not morally judgable" is bullshit.
Americans who fought in fallujah would not have been justified in starving the city, executing all non combatants, throwing the residents in lethal concentration camps, or planning to raze then colonize the area.
The "clean" Wehrmacht aided the ss and extermination groups, and conducting horrifying massacres on the eastern front. They also implicitly supported the hunger plan.
you are an edgy underaged lower than avarage IQ individual, leave or get banned
Literally you right now.
You're comparing the Red Army to the SS. The standard armies of both sides were mostly innocent of what history accuses their governments of.
Don't blame the soldiers for what they were told to do. Your average German soldier didn't give the order to invade Poland, he just obeyed it because that is his job.
Well said, you've clearly been in their shoes and know what conditions they went through. You are hereby certified to pass judgment on all soldiers from every war.
Are you arguing that one can't pass judgement on a group that aided and abetted multiple simultaneous genocides without having been in their shoes? That's top tier moral relativism.
It would mean for instance, that the nazis had no right to judge Jews, never having been. Jewish in Europe. Or that I couldn't judge you personally based on you 10" long swastiska patterned dragon dildo.
Ironically, hitler & his crew of barbarians detested this sort of relativism with a genocidal passion
They alway had a chance to get captured and even to enter some of the anti-hitlerite German units that were formed you nigger.
He's on a muh clean Wehrmacht, muh soldiers are the only ones who can judge war, tactical nihilism, morally relativistic bender.
Nothing you say will get through to him, because he can always say " but maybe Hans from Frankfurt is just a tortured soul you callous anti genocide anons can't understand"
>Are you arguing that one can't pass judgement on a group that aided and abetted multiple simultaneous genocides without having been in their shoes?
Yeah, I am.
>It would mean for instance, that the nazis had no right to judge Jews, never having been Jewish in Europe.
Correct.
>Ironically, hitler & his crew of barbarians detested this sort of relativism with a genocidal passion
You don't say? Hitler was a literal fucking retard who started the most destructive war in human history over his own perverted views of racial supremacy. Blame Hitler all you want, but don't blame the soldiers for following the orders they were given.
It's a lot harder than that. You would simply drop your weapon and give up on your own government that had revitalized your nation? The Wehrmacht soldiers didn't know about the genocides and the horrors of the camps. The most they saw of it was captured soldiers being sent West in shackles. They didn't think anything else of it because it wasn't their job to.
>invade countries without war declaration and enslave and murder the population
>"we were just defending our fatherland!"
Stormfags logic
Nah Germans are Tactical masters but strategic mongs.
Anglos are vice versa so Anglo always wins.
Strategy>Operation>Tactic
Finngols managed to be pretty moral in WW2.
Yeah, they were totally good guys, especially when they would prop up dead Soviets as scarecrows.
Like I said, don't blame the soldiers for the high command's crimes.
>clean Wehrmacht
>moral relativism to the point of devaluing all morals
The last refuge of stormfags.
>They didn't think anything!!!111!!
Things like Barbarossa degree were top secret amirite?
>Dont blame soldiers for crimes they commited
>Like I said, don't blame the soldiers for the high command's crimes.
So firing squads consisted of staff officers?
>We were just following orders!
>The standard armies of both sides were mostly innocent
No. This has been proven wrong countless times.
en.wikipedia.org
>So firing squads consisted of staff officers?
They consisted of soldiers who did what they were told, because that's their job.
Bingo.
Ok.
>muh morals that I've developed in my clean, perfect suburban life
The last refuge of people who've never had to struggle for anything in their life.
Yep.
Investigations done by the victors, and books written by those who've never fired a shot in anger in their entire life.
>Like I said, don't blame the soldiers for the high command's crimes.
Orders don't make killing of civilians legal. Germans firing at them broke the German law and their oath.
>Ich schwöre Treue der Reichsverfassung und gelobe, dass ich als tapferer Soldat das Deutsche Reich und seine gesetzmäßigen Einrichtungen jederzeit schützen, dem Reichspräsidenten und meinen Vorgesetzten Gehorsam leisten will.
>that guy from history class
>"actually, professor..."
>Investigations done by the victors,
>hurr durr ad hominems
>belegen neuere historische Forschungen ab den 1980er und 1990er Jahren anhand von Zeugenaussagen, Prozessunterlagen, Feldpostbriefen, persönlichen Tagebüchern und weiteren Dokumenten die unmittelbare und systematische Beteiligung der Wehrmacht an vielen Massakern und Kriegsverbrechen, speziell in Ost- und Südosteuropa, sowie am Holocaust
Actually most of the research is done by Germans i.e. not the viktors and a good chunk of is based on diaries and letters by Germans who fought. So yeah you just showed that you neither understand how historical science in general work nor how research on the Wehrmacht particularly is conducted.
You can shit post the whole day but it's not going to work here since I have been in the archives and read those letters.
>you neither understand how historical science in general work nor how research on the Wehrmacht particularly is conducted.
No, but I know how soldiers think.
>You can shit post the whole day but it's not going to work here since I have been in the archives and read those letters.
Oh nice, I'm very impressed. Have you ever had a human's life in the palm of your hands before?
>hurr durr history is shit and reading is for faggots
>war so grim and edgy like me XD
Pathetic bro. Your argument was that "history is written by the viktors" which is theoretically and empirically bullshit and you took that quote from Braveheart.
History is an empirical science; in this case based on the accounts of the soldiers you care so much about. If you really wanna go around and honor them you should take what they wrote seriously, read it, study it, learn from it. But you chose to shit on their history cause you are an illiterate lazy ass stormfag who is afraid of the truth and whose sole historical education are war novels and /pol/ macros. And you don't even speak German.
>Stormniggers will never admit it but Hitler was the worst fucking thing to happen to the German Army, all the talent wasted....
This
He fucked Germany beyond repair
>Soldier Z - 'I killed a Frenchman from behind with a shot. He was riding a bike.'
>Interrogator - 'From close to?'
>Soldier Z - 'Yeah.'
>Interrogator - 'Did he want to take you prisoner then?'
>Soldier Z - 'Naah, I wanted his bike!'
Forced confessions! Nothing it true but Nazi propaganda!
>Have you ever had a human's life in the palm of your hands before?
This reeks of cringe and autism.
>le history is written by the victors meme
When will stormfags learn that this myth doesn't exist anymore?
I've made it clear in my previous posts that I'm not a stormfag, I don't condone the orders given by the OKH or the Wehrmacht. What I'm saying is that the common soldier should not be held guilty for what he was ordered to do, on pain of death.
I've never said that these things didn't happen. I'm saying that we shouldn't blame the soldiers.
The common soldier is as guilty as his superior. Whenever you carry out an order you carry it out with your own personal responsibility.
If you think that blame and guilt are worthwhile categories for historians, you don't understand what historical science is.
Also there is literally no doubt that they are LEGALLY guilty since they broke their vows and the German law as was stated here You just chose to ignore that argument. Now please post something autistic in the vein of inter arma enim silent leges.
This. And this was part of the Treueid they all swore.
You've never been there. When given the order to shoot that bastard in the head, you do it, no questions asked, because he would do the same to you if given the chance.
As I said in one of my first posts, there is no law in war. It's useless to try and justify what happens. War is the complete breakdown of societal and diplomatic thought, and yet we still hold it to the same standards.
>Now please post something autistic in the vein of inter arma enim silent leges.
>there is no law in war.
So why were they following order again?
>You've never been there
Neither have you. Stop saying this like it is an argument. I know a lot more books than you about that stuff, plus some primary sources.
You have no privileged access to the 3rd Reich just because you are a Nazi.
Who said that? Nobody. Get fucked faggot.
>they did do stuff but it wasn't wrong because after careful study of all wars ever (Age of Empires) I came to the brilliant conclusion that there are now laws in war
>so cold and grim XD
Because if they didn't follow the order, then they'd be just as dead as the other guy.
>I know a lot more books than you about that stuff, plus some primary sources.
Good, you sound like a smart kid, just without any concept of empathy towards a soldier. Just like the hippies who would spit on soldiers as they returned from Vietnam. And obviously I have no privileged access to the Third Reich because there are no WWII veterans on this site. But I have been in the military, and I have seen war, and I have had people die because of my decisions. Call me a Nazi all you want, but at the end of the day, you'll still lie in your warm bed while my best friend is fucking dead. It's been good to talk to you.
You sound like a drunk heinlein. Go jack off to Ernst junger
>this fucking thread
>Dey wuzz Good honorable soldaten fighting for their country
>Definitely not Nazis, only da ebul SS did war crimes!
>No they were all card-carrying nazis, all of them complicit in warcrimes
>But the allies did X Y and Z!!!!
>that sobbing naked woman trying to shield her baby, would kill you, so you need to shoot her and the baby first
This is what stormcunts actually believe apparently.
>Because if they didn't follow the order, then they'd be just as dead as the other guy.
Wrong. We have quite a few accounts of people refusing to kill civilians. We don't know of A SINGLE FUCKING ONE who was punished for not killing them. Pic related, get fucked or read a book.
>just without any concept of empathy towards a soldier.
You are the one denying their agency by saying war has no laws and always is essentially the same. Truth is the Germans were especially murderous in WWII. There is simply no serious debate about this. There also is no debate that they were especially murderous in the East. So even in the same war we have the same army on two different fronts behaving radically different. There is a pattern to this and it is enforced by the nazi ideology calling of the extermination of Jews and the killing and/or enslavement of the Slavic peoples. Not all wars are exterminating wars, not all wars are like WWII. War doesn't stay the same and it changes according to ideological, legal, technical, historical and social factors.
>But I have been in the military, and I have seen war, and I have had people die because of my decisions.
Yeah, so have I. I served in 3 different armies in the last 10 years. Shit was dope, I once shot a guy with my M2 and saw his head pop off. Strangely this experience didn't help me read Germany any better. That shit I had to study later.
>there are no WWII veterans on this site
There are some in hundreds, and hundreds of books, articles and documentaries. Listen to them and examine their statement with files from the archives. This is how science works and I posted enough good books on this already. Read them.
They build roads and the autobahn, a really major logistic "building".
The plans were from the Weimar Republic and they funded it with deficit spending.
>Yeah, so have I. I served in 3 different armies in the last 10 years.
t. Lauri Törni
Germans could've taken Moscow if they didn't divert their forces south. But could they've hold the capital from endless stream of Soviet reinforcements from the East is the different story. They should've focused on the capital and treated Soviet prisoners nicely.
>served in 3 different armies
That is illegal in any country.
If your commanding officer gave you an order to take your unit and execute an entire village of men, women, and children, would you do it? Would you be so morally bankrupt to slaughter dozens of innocent noncombatants simply because a man with stripes on his sleeve told you to?
If your answer would be yes, then you are at least as much a criminal as any one of the staff officers to whom you assign the blame for the atrocities of the eastern front. But perhaps not, as you are much guiltier: it was not them who pulled the trigger.
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
The only way I can rationalize this is if he served first in the army of whatever nation he's from, then a UN Peacekeeping Force, then maybe the French Foreign Legion. The order of the last two is interchangeable, and maybe he did some private military contracting. Still doesn't seem especially likely though.
t. cuckold that betrayed his coutry to Hitlerites
>literally fucking SS
>UN Peacekeeping Force
I'm almost certain that the poster to whom I was referring, the one who said that they had served in 3 armies in the last decade, was not in the SS. Of course, this is an assumption you could have reached on your own if you had basic fucking skills in reading comprehension.
He isn't talking about Lauri Törni you dickwad.
t. red cuck
It was a joke you dumbass
t. american that does not understand Finland was at war with Hitler.
>massacred THIER POLISH ALLIES because ???
>shot down american aircraft and executed american riflemen
>had a few hundred thousand soldiers die chasing surrenduring enemies
>massacre anybody who doesnt fellate you before the war, raping your army and causing millions of deaths
>have an island where you starve people to death
It got to the piont where he was ordering the death of classified weapons test operators and the navy just ignored their orders and saved the men.
I'm North European.
Lauri Törni was fucking pardoned by the finnish President for his "crime".
Lauri Törni fought his motherlands enemies (the Reds) wherever he could be it in the German SS or The United States Army.
>fought his motherlands enemies
in army of nation that was at war with his own
got cucked by them in Vietnam
It was moot declaration that which is probably the reason Lauri Törni got pardoned.
>Two super powers are pressuring you to declare war on a dying shithole.
>Finnish Presidents letter to Hitler
Our German brothers-in-arms will forever remain in our hearts. The Germans in Finland were certainly not the representatives of foreign despotism but helpers and brothers-in-arms. But even in such cases foreigners are in difficult positions requiring such tact. I can assure you that during the past years nothing whatsoever happened that could have induced us to consider the German troops intruders or oppressors. I believe that the attitude of the German Army in northern Finland towards the local population and authorities will enter our history as a unique example of a correct and cordial relationship ... I deem it my duty to lead my people out of the war. I cannot and I will not turn the arms which you have so liberally supplied us against Germans. I harbour the hope that you, even if you disapprove of my attitude, will wish and endeavour like myself and all other Finns to terminate our former relations without increasing the gravity of the situation.
The only reason some soldiers died during the Lappland "war" was because soldiers were being jumpy.
>having feels for Germans surviving
Disgusting.