Icebreaker by Suvorov

>In November 1940, during the visit of the Soviet Foreign Commissar Vyacheslav Molotov to Berlin, Ribbentrop tried hard to get the Soviet Union to sign the Tripartite Pact.[220] Ribbentrop argued that the Soviets and Germans shared a common enemy in the form of the British Empire, and as such, it was in the best interests of the Kremlin to enter the war on the Axis side.[220] He proposed that, after the defeat of Britain, they could carve up the territory in the following way: the Soviet Union would have India and the Middle East, Italy the Mediterranean area, Japan the British possessions in the Far East (presuming of course that Japan would enter the war), and Germany would take central Africa and Britain.[220] Molotov was open to the idea of the Soviet Union entering the war on the Axis side, but demanded as the price of entry into the war that Germany recognise Finland, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey, Hungary and Yugoslavia as within the exclusive Soviet sphere of influence.[220] Ribbentrop's efforts to persuade Molotov to abandon his demands about Europe as the price of a Soviet alliance with Germany were entirely unsuccessful. After Molotov left Berlin, the Soviet Union indicated that it wished to sign the Tripartite Pact and enter the war on the Axis side. Though Ribbentrop was all for taking Stalin's offer, Hitler by this point had decided that he wanted to attack the Soviet Union. The German–Soviet Axis talks led nowhere.

The USSR was probably going to invade in 1942 or 1943 at the eraliest. In 1941 far too much of the Red Army was below combat readiness for invasion to be credible. Stalin's forward deployments were just bad defensive strategy.

Secondly there is no indication that Hitler thought the Soviet invasion was imminent so it was not a pre-emptive war in any respect.

There were zero evidences exist proving that the USSR planned to invade Finland yet they did invade. The USSR was a secretive totalitarian state.

>I am retarded.

sourcebooks.fordham.edu/MOD/1939pact.html

> Secret Additional Protocol.

>Article I. In the event of a territorial and political rearrangement in the areas belonging to the Baltic States (Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), the northern boundary of Lithuania shall represent the boundary of the spheres of influence of Germany and U.S.S.R. In this connection the interest of Lithuania in the Vilna area is recognized by each party.

But oh sure, a secret agreement with Finland's major patron power recognizing the country as within the Soviet "pshere of influence" and allowing for a "territorial and political rearrangement" isn't evidence of a planned invasion.

>Germany
>Finland's patron power
>in 1939
You must be clinically retarded.

The USSR had been mobilizing forces and demanding concessions from Finland for months. No such preemptive preparations were being made in 1941.

>It is true that in June one of the Moscow agents sent a report that the Kremlin was discussing a plan for such a strike, and that it was postponed.
A.M. Nekrich, 'Doroga k voine' [The road to war] Ogonek 27 (1991) p.8.

>According to the 1941 mobilization plan, first-echelon forces in the West, which included 114 divisions and first-line fortified regions, as well as 85 per cent of the Air Defense forces, air assault forces, more than 75 per cent of the Air Forces, and 34 regiments from the Reserve of the Main Command, were to be fully mobilized between two and six hours from the moment that mobilization was announced, using attached personnel and vehicular transport from nearby regions. Some 58 second-echelon divisions were to be fully mobilized in two to three days. An additional 60 divisions were to be full combat-ready in four to five days, and the remaining 71 divisions in six to ten days. The Air Forces were to be fully mobilized in three to four days; all combat units and rear subunits servicing them were to be brought to combat readiness in two to four hours, and first-echelon Air Defense forces in two hours.
>The Red Army implemented no defensive measures on the borders, nor did it even have plans to implement them.
>measures which were, in fact, implemented within the framework of the 15 May plan, and the formation of the Polish division by 1 June unambiguously prove that they had begun to carry out the plan for a preventive strike, and that the invasion was intended for the beginning of July.
Sandalov, The First Days of the War (note 56) p.106.
Mne bylo prikazano byt' spokoinym i ne panikovat" [I was ordered to be calm and not panic], Neizvestnaia Rossiia [Unknown Russia] 2nd ed. (Moscow: Istoricheskoe nasledie 1992) p.101.
V.D. Danilov, 'Gotovil Ii Stalin napadenie na Germaniiu?' [Was Stalin preparing to attack
Germany?] (note 60) p.15.
Suvorov wasn't the only one talking about this.

>

Lad, check yourself before you wreck yourself. Germany sold them out. Only once Hitler decided to backstab Russia, Finland proved useful again.

What about these authors ? Sandalov was a Soviet colonel-general according to the wiki while Nekrich lived during Stalin's regime, his works were even banned and he moved to the U.S.A.

Impossible. Stalin applied to join the Axis in 1940, but Hitler refused. He was still trying to establish the basis for a long-term alliance with Germany in 1941, sending huge shipments of oil, grain, and metal to Germany in return for expected improvements in relations. It seems insane in hindsight, and only makes sense when you take into account Stalin's "national bolshevik" anti-semitism. He sincerely thought it was possible team up with Hitler against Jewish international capitalism.

Also, Stalin's cautious personality would never allow him to make such a massive gamble as invading Germany.

Stalinism was more focused on "socialism in one country" than world revolution. If Trotsky was the Soviet leader, the invasion would have started in the '20s.

>On the basis of these intelligence data, a plan for a preventive strike against Germany was prepared on 15 May 1941. It envisioned the main attack by Southwestern Front in the direction of Krakow, Katowice, where 152 divisions were to destroy 100 German divisions. An auxiliary strike was planned for Western Front against Warsaw and Deblin, and by Southern Front against Romania, after Southwestern Front shifted to the offensive
Voenno-Istoricheskii Zhurnal 2 (1992) pp.18-20

When the Germans invaded, Stalin gave the order to his troops "not to give in to provocations", resulting in a number of Red Army divisions being encircled without a fight (since they thought resisting would disobey the order). Why would Stalin do this if he wanted war with Germany? If he was planning to attack anyway, why would he tell his troops not to "give in to provocations"?

It's obvious to anyone who studies the subject that Stalin was doing everything possible to avoid war with Germany.

>Nekrich gained fame for his sensational work June 22, 1941; Soviet Historians and the German Invasion, a study of the Soviet-German confrontation during World War II, which was critical of Stalin and the Soviet leadership over their failure to prepare the country for an anticipated German onslaught.
I think you missed the guy's point

>The Red Army implemented no defensive measures on the borders, nor did it even have plans to implement them.
I find it hard to believe Soviet officer would be unaware of the Molotov line.

>measures which were, in fact, implemented within the framework of the 15 May plan, and the formation of the Polish division by 1 June unambiguously prove that they had begun to carry out the plan for a preventive strike, and that the invasion was intended for the beginning of July.
Sounds like taken out of context or manipulated. Do you have link for pdf?

The plan was refused by Stalin

>Molotov line
Sorry, I forgot to mention this was about the Southwestern front (i.e Ukraine) That is why Molotov line was not mentioned:
>Thus, Lt General I. S. Konev, Commander of 19th Army, which in mid- June 1941 was moved from the Northern Caucasus to the Ukraine […]
>At the beginning of June, assigning a mission to the 19th Army commander, Timoshenko was already talking about a counterstroke: 'The Army must be in a state of full combat readiness in case of a German offensive in the southwestern theater of military operations against Kiev. The Army must be ready to launch a flank attack and drive the Germans into the Pripiat' Marshes.'
I.S. Konev, Zapiski komanduiushchego frontom [Notes of a front commander] (Moscow: Voenizdat 1991) pp.53-9.
And no, sorry, I do not have link to PDF as of right now.

>Viktor Suvorov

From his articles in "Do rzeczy: historia" I have learned he finds
>Peter the Great an overrated asshole
>Catherine the Great an overrated asshole
>Nicholas II a holy martyr
>Lenin an overrated asshole
>Stalin an overrated asshole
>Zhukov an overrated asshole
>Putin a satan

>citing literal kike ((((viktor suvorov))) to justify your neo-nazism
literally lmaoing

The document didn't only say "not to give in to provocations". It warns of potential invasion. The not give in to "provocations" at the same time had written to be ready to stop an attack as well as other things (deploy aerodromes etc). This same document was signed by Timoshenko and Zhukov. You ignored a huge part of Stalin's statement.

The Molotov Line ran past Lvov though.

>At the beginning of June, assigning a mission to the 19th Army commander, Timoshenko was already talking about a counterstroke: 'The Army must be in a state of full combat readiness in case of a German offensive in the southwestern theater of military operations against Kiev. The Army must be ready to launch a flank attack and drive the Germans into the Pripiat' Marshes.'

Sounds like not everyone in Stavka was foolish like Stalin, not like they were planning an offensive.

?
kriepost.org/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=3

This is possible, I believe I once read in a book about Stalin that he was receiving information fron a Russian spy, but still refused to believe it. However it is also possible that it was just another way of writing "Invasion", much like stated here:
>According to a statement by Marshal K. A. Meretskov, it was just this way with the attack against Finland in 1939, which was prepared as a 'counterstroke' within the framework of protecting the state borders […]
K.A. Meretskov, Na sluzhbe narodu [In service to the people], 2nd ed. (Moscow: Politizdat 1971) pp.177-8.

>This is possible, I believe I once read in a book about Stalin that he was receiving information fron a Russian spy, but still refused to believe it.
To be precise, he told him to fuck his mother.

Hitler also wrote him a letter not to be surprised, when he starts amassing forces near his borders, since it is merely a maskirovka to prepare operation Sealion.

>To be precise, he told him to fuck his mother.
Really? I read more of he is a "useless bitch who goes to brothels" or something, since he did fuck around in brothels, are we talking about the same spy? The one I read about was deployed in Japan once
Also that Hitler part is very interesting, anywhere I can read up more on that?

>are we talking about the same spy?
Not sure, mine was in Luftwaffe. The telegraph goes 'You can tell your “source” from the German air force to go and fuck his whore of a mother!'

>Also that Hitler part is very interesting, anywhere I can read up more on that?

>cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol50no1/9_BK_What_Stalin_Knew.htm
In something of a surprise, Murphy reprints two secret letters from Hitler to Stalin that he found in the published Russian sources, hitherto unknown in the West. In these, the Führer seeks to reassure the Soviet dictator about the scarcely concealable German military buildup in eastern Europe. Hitler confides to Stalin that troops were being moved east to protect them from British bombing and to conceal the preparations for the invasion of the British Isles. He concludes with an assurance “on my honor as a head of state” that Germany would not attack the Soviet Union.[2] Some may question the authenticity of these letters, but they are difficult to dismiss out of hand. Assuming they are genuine, they add to what is perhaps the most bewildering paradox of the Soviet-German war: Stalin, the man who trusted no one, trusted Hitler.

Can we have /pol/ threads banned already?

Thanks. Also, checked up a bit more on that Hitler statement, found some more info:
>To conceal the transfer of the last troop train, an article by Goebbels, entitled 'Crete as an Example', was to appear in Volkische Beobachter on 13 June 1941, containing a direct reference to the imminent invasion of Britain. On the night of 12-13 June, the military censor confiscated the issue, with the intention, however, that some copies would be distributed in Berlin and reach foreign embassies. On 14 June, Goebbels certified with satisfaction the opinion of British and world mass media that 'our deployment against Russia is pure bluff, with whose help we are counting on concealing preparations for an invasion of Great Britain'.

Whoops, meant for

Stop crying "wolf", idiot.

Apparently it was the same spy we were talking about, heh.

Apparently Stumbling Colossus by Glantz debunks Suvorov's thesis, but I haven't found an online copy
Is it any good?

He keeps contradicting himself. He states in his book that the Soviets were very close to the border, there was secret redeployment of units, planes were deployed near the border as well with no defensive measures. He even states the Soviet Airforce lacked "a precise plan for the employment of the air forces'" after the Germans attacked Barbarossa (page 195 and 199). Also with the order that forbid troops from deploying any border defences in page 246-252. Fuck, he even states that Timosheko and Zhukov informed Stalin that the USSR should attack the German forces near the border, because the Germans were capable of "forestalling (preempting)" Soviet plans (which he talks about from page 241). This looks more like a fucking preparation for an attack rather than a "defence". He basically shifts the whole topic of "Was Stalin planning to attack Hitler?" to "Was the Soviet army ready in June 22, 1941?". He basically shifted the topic rather than addressing what he originally wanted to talk about.

Even Walter Post's "Unternehmen Barbarossa" has a remark from General Andrey Vlasov who claimed the Soviets were preparing an attack on August-September:
Walter Post, Unternehmen Barbarossa [Operation Barbarossa], p.298