Why did Communism lose its appeal for actual proletarians?

Still all social democratic parties helped and funded the war effort.

>As for religion, observers noted 150-180 years ago how the working class didn't care for religious observance, at least in England.

It was different in Catholic countries.

Prods don't care about Religion?

Shucks, who'da thunk it

>Why did Communism lose its appeal for actual proletarians?
Maybe because the goals of the communists are antithetical to the goals of the proles

Working class is too busy actually working to go cavorting about on revolutions

Yeah, it's totally powerless communists edgelord college students who are responsible for millions of immigrants, not capitalists who want to drive down wages, put pressure on the labor pool, and divide the working class even further. Please sterilize yourself for the sake of future generations

Lenin's Bolsheviks never did this, which is why they split from the Second Internationale

I'm a father so its too late for that desu
You're so ugly nobody needs to sterilize you

regardless, it's edgelord college students that are alienating the sensible members of the dissatisfied electorate; i never claimed they were the ones importing the immigrants. but it doesn't make sense that the party of social justice should prevent the real working class from joining their movement. at least, it doesn't make sense until you remember that social justice is entirely composed of bourgeois coffee shop revolutionaries who've never even met anyone who does hard labor. people with college degrees aren't proles.

>people with college degrees aren't proles.
Nonsense. People who perform mental labor are working class, same as people who do manual labor. You don't need to be some moustached beer swilling miner to be working class.

The working class only supports revolutionary politics when conditions are pretty bad, and as of now conditions for workers are pretty good

mental gymnastics =/= mental labor
Real mental laborers are well paid. They organize companies, design products, teach the next generation of workers how to read and write, etc.
A barista trying to pay off 7 years of student debt she acquired getting a masters degree in _____ studies is not a mental laborer just because in her she writes a blog about overthrowing the white supremacist patriarchy and liberating western women from its rape-cultural clutches by embracing a million north african migrants while making 10 dollars an hour.
The real "means of production" that these "revolutionaries" want to "seize" lies in the acquisition of raw materials, which is primarily achieved through manual labor. Want the poor to have higher wages? How about starting with improving the working conditions of miners and farm laborers. Oh wait, you can't improve the working conditions of those jobs because the labor pool is international. If those workers try to unionize or strike there's a million mexicans who would do the job for even less, and the government doesn't restrict an unlimited number of them entering the country on work visas and staying indefinitely. Hmmm. And every natural resource which can't be locally sourced with imported labor is imported from other countries at ridiculously low rates because global trade laws are designed to screw over american labor. Hmmm.

It's too bad that the official position of these types of leftist agitators is anti-american. If it wasn't maybe americans would be on their side.

Menial labor* As opposed to mental or manual. Menial means repetitive low skilled or unskilled tasks.

The proletariat is by definition those whose main form of income is their own labor being sold and who own no capital. Thats pretty much it.

As for the people Marx is talking about, its the proletariat once they reach a stage of desperation or forsee a stage of desperation where their only option is death or a rejection of the system.

College students aren't at that level. Even if college students claim to reject the system, most if not all continue to embrace and buy into it and just exhibit disdain in a normalized way and within the paramaters of the system.

capitalism got them fat and happy so classist marxism become disarmed. Identitarian/cultural marxism took over.

Leftists? Leftists love Israel shithead.

Also
>not taking account Palestinean Christians

what dimension are you living in where every college campus on the planet doesn't have at least one yearly protest against "israeli apartheid"?

No they don't.

What leftists do you talk to?

Communists hate Israel more than any country with the possible exception of the US.

>There is hardly such thing as a real 'working class' today in an advanced capitalist society.
t. suburban Californian college liberal

Mental "labor" isn't labor, it's sitting on your ass doing nothing.

The leftists that actually matter I mean. Doesn't matter what Billy Cuckson from Ohio says in support of Palestine. What matters is what the politicians say. Our entire government is in support of Israel. Every far left European countries government is in support of Israel. The media is for Israel.

I really don't care what happens to the Muslims and Jews. I care about the Christians, who were in far better shape before the Jews came and took their land. Also to add the fact that Christians have hardly any rights in Israel. You're not a citizen unless you join the military and kill Palestinian kids, which a Christian can't do.

How about you go to Israel? I was talking with a priest from a local Greek church that has been all over the world, and we were discussing Israel. He's far from a lefrist, he's actually a Greek nationalist, and will tell you the same things I'm telling you

Who is 'the working class'? The union factory worker with a pension and higher than median salary? The truckers? The modern farmer with a degree in agricultural and a sophisticated relationship with big gov and modern finance? The retail workers who consider it a temporary gig?

>workers aren't workers as long as they're unionized
I mean think about what you just wrote for two seconds.

>The leftists that actually matter I mean

So no leftists then.

The left has been neutered and powerless since the 70s at least.

Do you believe they conceive of themselves as 'working class', like they're one unified front along with the fast foot service employees who are worse off than them in every way?

conservatives in US and UK are more pro-israel than the left parties, left parties in other european countries, especially the scandinavian ones are either tepid or range from mildly to very hostile to israel.

>Why did Communism lose its appeal for actual proletarians?
People saw it in action and decided they enjoyed eating more than murdering child royalty.

Their self identification has nothing to do with whether they are a working class or not.

>Leftists? Leftists love Israel shithead.

In America everyone loves Israel. Left, right, religious, atheists, everyone trips over himself to suck jewish cock. I think it must've been genetically engineered into their DNA, I can't think of any other possible way.

>Mental "labor" isn't labor, it's sitting on your ass doing nothing.
soon enough most people are going to be sitting or standing still as automation takes over. even in factories today most of the most grueling labor has been delegated to machines. emotional and mental labor are real and are only going to become more grueling as people come to expect spotless service in the few jobs left that are left to humans, creating an arms' race, so to speak, of who has to act the politest. you may say "so what" but that kind of psychological dissonance is awful for your health over time. it's made even worse by rating apps, which i wouldn't be surprised start to get extended to employees who's labor gets rated by stars and reviews in realtime which then aids management in whether to hire or fire workers. there are advantages to this but the price of efficiency is greater human misery.

Are you daft? It's a central part of what communism doesn't appeal to them, because they don't have class consciousness as part of this unified 'working class', but rather specialists in a unique industry with a union that caters to its individual concerns.

????? You mean the one's that are winning the culture war? Those that "don't matter"?
The U.S election was literally who can suck Israel off more. Didn't matter what politcal party, you still had to blow Bibi. Hillary and Bernie were both deeply in bed with them. More to add to the list would be Ginsberg, Chuck Shumer(actually fought in the IDF despite being American; but he is Jewish), etc. Most the liberal Israel supporters are naturally Jews.

Working class doesn't have to be united in order to be working class.

Are you politically blind, or just retarded?

No, you sitting in an office sipping coffee isn't labor, you're objectively doing nothing. You only think of it as work because we automated mankind to the n-th degree but still hold to the idea that everyone needs to be employed, so we artificially create nonsensical """jobs""" that require zero physical work to perform.

>Communism almost universally reviled in the west
>organized labor broken
>people's lives revolve around mindless consumption and worship of capital
>the left is winning

I fucking wish.

The capitalist class learned from what happened to the old monarchies and figured out that stick+carrot is better then just stick when it comes to dealing with potential or actual unrest.

read bourdieu :^) class isn't

that's unsurprising that jewish politicians support israel, because the jewish community is majority pro-israel (though this is eroding). there are just as many right wing jews that shill even harder for Israel, though. Sheldon Adelson, the casino magnate, visits israel, funds rightwing israeli newspapers, bankrolls rightwing parties, heartily endorses and often talks with bibi (who is basically a republican party clone except PM of israel, who was even in finance in the same company with mitt romney, who he openly supported against obama, who was actually pretty neutral on israel bordering on condemning of their palestinian policy). besides adelson, there's Norman Braman who LITERALLY created Marco Rubio, bankrolling his whole career and nothing less than Rubio's puppetmaster. And surprise surprise, a deep supporter of israel who probably has funded israeli organizations and the like. a quick look at google shows he donated 300k to a nonprofit supporting israeli construction in the west bank. In other words the Republicans are even MORE deeply compromised on the israeli question than democrats

literally every far left party in the world supports Palestine and the PFLP is anti-Zionist as fuck

>No, you sitting in an office sipping coffee isn't labor, you're objectively doing nothing.
all of this is baased on the assumption that sitting jobs require no work, which is a fucking retarded assumption which has no basis in reality, unless you can provide hard proof to the contrary. for whatever reason your butthurt at the idea of sitting jobs.

Human greed.

let me say i don't mean to make this a pissing contest, i realize democrats also have their interest in supporting israel

>Republicans are even MORE deeply compromised on the israeli question than democrats
I will agree entirely. I was just telling the kind folks on here that liberals also love them. Dems and Reps are both AIDS
>literally every far left party in the world supports Palestine
Literally not true

It's simple: Life got better.

t. non bourgeois

working class as a unit of analysis and as a potential force for political action is absolutely meaningless if the body of people that you call "the working class" does not imagine itself as such. Class exists only insofar as a group of people believe that they all share that class identity, and in America that sense is conspicuous in its absence.

>Literally not true

Any 'far-left' party that supports an illegitimate , ethnocentric terrorist regime over a people under the boot of said regime is a pretty shitty far-left party.

>actually being proud of being bourgeois

Capitalists gave more benefits to people And they stopped giving a fuck

I think the main problem lies in how Communists want to achieve their goals. Socialists wanted to work within the existing system to gradually make life better for the working class, but Communists were completely opposed to this and wanted the proletariat to live as shitty of a life as possible so they "awaken" sooner and rise up to overthrow the system. If I was a worker, why would I support to the guys who want to fuck my life up and revolt for the promise of a better future when I could just support the guys who just want to make my life better without revolution or upheaval?

that's a gross oversimplification of the israeli-palestinian conflict and you know it

This, the original commies have been headfucked accelerationists. Thoroughly jewish ideology trying to tear down all existing structures at all costs. In comparison, the Marxists-Leninists were actually the more sane ones because they just installed a generic dictatorship.

>Thoroughly jewish ideology
/pol/ pls. the rest of your comment is fine but there's not need to introduce "da joos" into this

Because working class people actually don't care about the delusional theories of that crazy kike. All they want is a decent living standard, which capitalism (and the creation of unions and collective bargaining) permitted.

Workers were never communist, communists have always been upper class bourgeois intellectuals, just like today.

It's the essential part of it, the jewish desire to deconstruct and destroy. Try reading Kevin Macdonald.

I do understand your critisim of limousine liberals and how they are out of touch with working class but
>permitted
top fucking kek, capitalist gave concessions by force, mostly due to leftist fights.
8 hour workday, weekends etc are socialsit gains, mostly gained from fighting tooth and nail, for every ford you had 100 factory owners who would work you 7 days a week 15 hours a day.

There is also an interesting theory, the thatclaim USSR was an effective force in improving the condition of workers in west. Fearing people would go socialist they improved the working class conditions, nowadays with ussr and the threat of revolution is gone, they are beginning to take away the benefits. This is one explanation of the decreased purchaing power/benefits that seems to correlate with the decline and the fall of ussr

>top fucking kek, capitalist gave concessions by force, mostly due to leftist fights.
>8 hour workday, weekends etc are socialsit gains, mostly gained from fighting tooth and nail, for every ford you had 100 factory owners who would work you 7 days a week 15 hours a day.
I have nothing against collective bargaining. None of those things were obtained from snooty upper class homosexual intellectuals wearing horn-rimmed glasses, but by gruffy trade unionists.

Leftism's place is in the trade union, not in the government.

Again I'm not saying the disengagement of intellectuals is not a problem nor talk about how the socialsit states bastardized revolutino or something and how effective were those rich intellectuals in these events is a matter of debate, my beef with you is that it is as if you sugarcoat the past, the barganings, the strikes, the taking of rights were quite brutal it was neither agreement nor permission, workers "took" it, by blood for most of the time.

Take a look at "collective barganings" of late 19th and early 20th century, most of the """""bargainings""" were supressed, army shot workers who were protesting/striking *

I'm a libertarian myself but I have to give credit where its due, without their blood we probably wouldn't have weekends and other rights, which ironically are slipping away right now

I'm just a side note plz ignore me, gosh I shouldnt have wrote in the first place. just deraield it sorry. Off I go to bed

>you sugarcoat the past, the barganings, the strikes, the taking of rights were quite brutal it was neither agreement nor permission, workers "took" it, by blood for most of the time.
I don't? Where did I sugercoat it?

My first post in this thread was :
>Because working class people actually don't care about the delusional theories of that crazy kike. All they want is a decent living standard, which capitalism (and the creation of unions and collective bargaining) permitted.
>Workers were never communist, communists have always been upper class bourgeois intellectuals, just like today.

Is it my usage of the word "permitted" that triggered you so? Fine, replace it with "allowed to happen under", or whatever else you want to replace it with.

And you do know that weekends off is a Christian tradition right? The only countries I know of where Sunday wasn't a day off was Stalin's USSR and Revolutionary France.

Anyways, sleep tight user.

My father was a construction worker for his entire life and raised 5 kids on less than $30,000 a year. He was the sole provider for our family, due to childcare costing more than my mom would be paid at any job. We lived a very comfortable life and had everything we needed. Nowadays you can't get away with poor treatment and terrible pay for your workers. I'd say workers rights and people overall instating programs that try and prevent the poor from starving have given just about everyone just about everything they need.

>reading someone who unironically writes of an anti-semitic white nationalist mouthpiece
"no"

He's one of the most brilliant scholars on the issue discredited only because of oy vey.

>He's one of the most brilliant scholars because he agrees with my world view
I believe this is what you meant to say

Working classes generally realize you can't trust the government.

The end goal of theoretical communism may be to create a stateless society but it is expressly stated in the communist manifesto that the communist party is to take over the gub and in practice that is what they try to do.

>2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
>5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
>6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
>7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
>10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

You don't have to opine over politics for hours to realize that a bunch of people ranting and raving about creating a utopia if only you give them an enormous amount of power might not actually do what they promise once they are in the saddle. Our working class person might be a disgruntled factory laborer but their sister's husband's small business is doing well and they are happy for them, he doesn't want to ruin that. He wants his country to be an open society bustling with tourism, trade and activity so he can be a little more prosperous, he has more options in life and it is a little more difficult for some generalissimo to violate human rights without foreign journalists finding out. For that you need some level of economic freedom, he might support nationalizing oil but not full communism.

every example you offered

Not an argument.

yes for the vast, vast majority of them.

Because they saw it didn't work

>left
>winning the culture war
what fucking planet are you living on

and why should i take your opinion seriously? how can you say he's "brilliant" if he's probably the only """scholar""" you've ever read? have you really read opposing views that present their arguments in systematic faction to question whether he is the alpha and omega on the subject of jews?
the obvious conclusion, as that other user points out, is that you chose to read him because he interested you, he interested you because he confirms your worldview, and you formed that worldview with hearty dose of /pol/ propagandizing.

meant

Quite the opposite, he formed my world view.

Name a single leftist pro-Israel party

I read some of his books and they're pretty interesting. The most interesting part of Culture of Critique is his analysis of Stalin's anti-semitic purges of 1953. Even in a communist society, the Jewish impulse to deconstruct, critique, and debase the foundational pillars of society remains.

I'm literally a communist and l read MacDonald just because it was interesting and I like hearing different points of view. I didn't agree with much of it (his theory about Freud is borderline psychotic) but he brings up some interesting points. Why have the same stereotypes about Jews existed for millenia across such a variety of civilizations? Why did Jews poison Stalin, the one man who saved them from being wiped out completely? (Google "Doctor's Plot") Why are they so arrogant, self-absorbed, cruel and inhuman towards Palestinians and other ME nations? These are all legitimate questions. He's been teaching at a California public university for decades, so if he was really that unhinged he'd have been removed long ago.

Consumerism gave everyone access to whatever they want. Deal with it commies.

>I'm literally a communist
national bolshevist is only nominally "communist"
>Why have the same stereotypes about Jews existed for millenia across such a variety of civilizations?
why did people believe for thousands of years that humors and vapors caused disease, that the sun revolved around the earth? that there are invisible gods, gods residing in statues and geographical features, spirits, curses, monsters? that stars were people or made of nonexistent substances, that they affected or predicted the course of one's life? there are many reasons why people believed and still believe these things, most importantly because they give simple explanations to complex phenomena, phenomena that have affected their life in one way or another and which they can't reconcile with their limited understandings of the nature of things. beliefs about the jews are no different; the beliefs about them are no different to superstition and witch hunting.
>Why did Jews poison Stalin, the one man who saved them from being wiped out completely?
utter lie
>Why are they so arrogant, self-absorbed, cruel and inhuman towards Palestinians and other ME nations?
and what gives you the authority to collectively denounce a collection of human beings? from the way you write i reckon you've met none and only know what you've read on the internet, reading which has most likely been fed to you from biased sources and in such quantity so that you've now made a universal principle out of your bungled "research".
>Why are they so arrogant, self-absorbed, cruel and inhuman towards Palestinians and other ME nations?
this is not a question particular to the jews, but is subsumed under the general philosophical question of "why does evil exist? why do people do evil things (and evil from whose perspective, anyway)?"

Farmers are rich nowadays.

Calicucks should be permabanbed from Veeky Forums

This is only true in America. Far left politics are substantially more popular among wage laborers in Europe, Latin America, and Asia.

Even liberal little Britain saw working class people turn out in droves for a Labour manifesto that was very nearly socialist.

>doctors plot
Beria himself came out and declared the whole the was stupid
real mental gymnastic on your part, bruv.

Because Beria was probably in on it

>everyone who disagrees with me is part of the plot
said every conspiracy theorist ever

>runs the NKVD from 1938 onwards
>he was in on it!
cmon

Beria killed Stalin in the end so how is surprising?

nobody killed stalin, you retard. he died of a stroke, and the reason why he was left alone was because he told nobody to disturb him.

>(((stroke)))
Sure amigo

nah stalin probably got poisoned
he went the same way as robespierre, he promised another round of purges but didn't specify who, so the lot of him decided "it's him or us".

You're the guy who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is a jew, right?
Of course there's zionism and nationalstic jews.
And then there are retarded isreal supporters who just want to piss of muslims.
But we're far away from a race war with jews considering our and their stand in todays politics.
Also, society is more complex ans pluralistic than you think.
There are jews who simply dont give a fuck about politics and there are zionists.
And no matter what kikes or you want to believe, judaism is a religion, not a race.
They arent holy ascendants of some holy tribe, their ancestors got raped over and over again and today there are jews who are even against Israel and nationalist in matter of the country they're living in.
If everyone who this board wants to be a jew would instantly turn into one, there wouldnt even be a need for race wars because jews would already run everything and wenn couldnt trust anybody, because i'm of course a jew, and you surely too.

>nobody killed stalin

>I don't what socialism is all about but I must still post

What does Goering have to do with this?