Does anyone think the Jewish version of God makes a hell of a lot more sense?

Does anyone think the Jewish version of God makes a hell of a lot more sense?

*God is schizophrenic, petty, and his emotions are always at 11. All the chaos in the universe is the result of having a psycho in the driver seat.

*God is brutal, hardcore. Seriously do not fuck with that guy. If he likes you he might just ruin your life for disobeying him. If he doesn't like he'll have your children enslaved, your wife raped, and he'll make you watch. If he's really in a pissed off mood he'll do it to your entire tribe for a couple of decades.

*God refers to himself as the source of all evil. In Genesis he is described as creating disease and war. There's no Devil or other deities to appeal to btw. Your stuck with this bastard-maniac. He is the final authority on all moral issues.

*Oh and there's no afterlife either. The good guys don't go to heaven and the bad guys that don't go to hell. Your life can end from any number of accidents at any time with no compensation.

*Not only does is he completely brutal but sometimes he doesn't even have a motive. You know the flood story? Do you know what the actual text says his motive for it was? The reason he whiped out 99% of all life on the planet including animals and tribes that didn't even know he existed? For no reason at all, that's right. Eccelestias directly states he made life without meaning or justice.

*God occasionally shows symptoms of suicidal depression, regret, and nihilism.

>You know the flood story? Do you know what the actual text says his motive for it was? The reason he whiped out 99% of all life on the planet including animals and tribes that didn't even know he existed? For no reason at all, that's right.

That's wrong.

There's no reason given in the text.

Christians try to say it had to do with homosexuality or some other moral failing. But if you read the text without any prejudice you'll see there isn't any justification.

People have been conditioned to think the Old Testament God is supposed to be about justice and morality in the same way the New Testament God is. But they are worlds apart.

Hello! You've discovered gnosticism. Well, the demiurge style kind of it, anyway.

DESU I feel like the Jewish god mostly a reaction to the babylonian captivity. The Jews went a little cray-cray. Or perhaps their patron god did.

>no reason given in the text.

Re-read Genesis 6.

So here's Genesis chapter six verse five in the King James;

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

There's the reason. Please don't waste our time with "evil is subjective" either. You are wrong, there is a justification. You can read it yourself in this post without prejudice. Now you can tell me that it's a shit justification, you can tell me God is evil but you can't tell me there's not a reason for the flood in the Old Testament.

There's also some more stuff about his motive in...

>11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

>12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

>13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

I'm not a Christfag or a monotheist, but if you're going to speculate be accurate.

Look at that and try to tell me it's anything to do with justice. There is some vague mention of "evil" or "disobdience". This isn't evil as in 'things that make life worst' it's evil in the Old Testament way which means 'doing anything God does not like whether or not he told you he didn't like it'.

The thing that is making life worst IS the Old Testament God. He's mentally unstable.

>The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

>“I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.

This is a cry for help.

>Look at that and try to tell me it's anything to do with justice.

Senpai, I'm literally a pagan but this isn't what you said in the OP. You said he doesn't give a reason, when he is very clear about his reasons.

Looking at it 'without prejudice' my first thought is 'Man, a story where 'the flesh' is some sort of cosmic horror in constant conflict with the spiritual would be cool'.

Old Testament God is basically a Jew who acts like every Jew who ever lived. Petty, vindictive, sadistic, sociopathic, materialist faggot. It's only with the New Testament which is thoroughly Greek when more nuanced, spiritual and philosophical concepts get introduced.

"There were evil" is about as fucking vague as you can get. Also keep in mind this is BEFORE God has given very many commandments. The people are not even TOLD by God he is unhappy with them.

The thing is that the Old Testament's definition of Evil is different than the New Testament guys.

Old Testament: Evil=disobeying God even if he never gave you the instructions, even if his commandments offer no benefit to anyone.

>God is evil

He admits in Issaiah "I create evil"

There is no devil in the old testament. God is solely responsible for everything. The reason life is shitty is because he atrociously bad at planning.

I am Jew and I am not vindictive or sadistic or sociopathic and I'm only slightly materialistic lol

You're still looking at it with prejudice. There isn't even a concept of "spirit" in Genesis! Everything is flesh, including God himself. He is described as walking around the garden or wrestling with Jacob.

He's like your pagans where he has a physical body, emotions, there is no spirit, only flesh.

What the Christian is doing is looking at the word "evil" and thinking it's the same "evil" as his new testament. It's not. At this point in the story the concept of "evil" is so vaguely defined as to be meaningless.

That's what a joo would say!

You don't mention the word "wickedness" does Gods defintion differ from yours on that point as well? Was it not real wickedness? Like the evil isn't real evil in your opinion?
You seem to be trying to prove something about God but all you're saying about him is that you personally have a different opinion, which is fine because you don't believe so, why would you?
As for your justice, removing your personal shame from the world is a form justice. You also miss the part of the text where God creates a covenant with man and promises not to flood the earth again.
There's also the destruction of Sodom where God is begged to save the city if there is but one good man present, and he ageees. Where does that fit into your theory?

>There isn't even a concept of "spirit" in Genesis!

וְהָאָרֶץ, הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ, וְחֹשֶׁךְ, עַל-פְּנֵי תְהוֹם; וְרוּחַ< אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם.

>וְרוּחַ

You're saying all this without evidence.

Like, again, I'm a pagan and you're just... shitposting basically.

I literally believe that yehweh is just a faggot who went mad with power and told his pet humans he was the only god.

You're not even trying to provide evidence though, and you're misrepresenting the dude's own words instead of using actually available evidence.

>There isn't even a concept of "spirit" in Genesis! Everything is flesh, including God himself.

There is ZERO evidence of that. You don't /need/ to have flesh in order to wrestle or walk.

>He's like your pagans where he has a physical body, emotions, there is no spirit, only flesh.

Oh, you have a really weird definition of 'spirit' and 'flesh', okay. Weirdo. Anyway Im basically thinking of him as like a ghost that can interact with shit through telekinesis.

>At this point in the story the concept of "evil" is so vaguely defined as to be meaningless.

Not really? In the narrative eating the fruit of the tree was evil. Because Adam's 'creator', metaphysically his parent, told him not to. There's also some themes there about Adam stepping above his station. Look at other Semitic religions. In the Babylonian religion, humans were literally made to be slaves because the lowest rank of gods were too lazy to do shit like farm. Semitic religion sees humans as slaves who should accept this and be submissive to god.

This is why 'Islam' means submission. This is why Christianity is so submissive and was reeeme by an act of submission (even if self-submission). This is why all sin is because of not submitting.

It's kinda dumb, and seems evil to 21st century liberal democracies, but it is internally consistent.

Piggybacking off of this pagan, the fruit that was eaten was literally "the knowledge of good and evil" so yes, man knew what evil was by the time of the flood, biblically, even if OP thinks it's vague.

This is a good point, it is 'vague' to us because the OT hasn't gone into what is and isn't good and evil yet. However there is no reason to assume the players in the story don't have an internal compass bestowed upon them by the Fruit.

Hell, the book itself even implies we have a comparable understanding of evil to god himself.

From Genesis 3.

>22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

>23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

This seems to be going over your head. I am working entirly with God's own framework here. Put yourself in the of the society God is interacting with. Sodom and Gommorah hasn't happened. There is no New Testament. There isn't even a list of commandments. Essentially these people have not been told a single thing about the nature of evil. And they havn't been told this because the Deity itself hasn't figured it out. The parts you described in Sodom and Gommorah describe a much more mature Yawheh.

Essentially God CHANGES over the course of the bible. He develops, learns, makes mistakes, and grows.

>Anyway Im basically thinking of him as like a ghost that can interact with shit through telekinesis.

And that shows your making shit up when you read the text. Because new testament theology has a very Platonic deity you just assume the Old Testament one must operate on the same rules. Hell you even assume the morality of Gensis is the same as in the other books. Genesis morality is actually much closer to the Babylonians you described. When God wrestles Jacob he enslaves him sort of like a Bablyonian God. Later on the pact is described as more consensual.

You also assume I am saying Yawheh himself is evil which I never said. I said he's mentally unstable.

Haven't been told a single thing but they have the knowledge of good and evil running through their veins from the original human. From God's own framework.

I'm a maltheistic antinatalist. Pretty sure this is just a crappy simulation being run in a world where universe creation is a commodity

Think of it this way. The old testament people are basically have the moral knowledge of a child. They know there is this thing called "evil" which they shouldn't know.

They know a few examples: don't build tall buildings, don't stop having children. And that's really their exstent of the knowledge. They probably don't even have a real grasp on "do not murder" and "do not steal". And there is no list of rules for these people to check.

And like children they cannot be held responsible for their actions because they don't know anything. In such a situation it would be the fault of the parent (Yawheh) but in this case the parent himself is struggling to know what good and evil are. The parent also has terrible planning skills. He can't handle his children so he kills off several of them (flood). He than kind of feels bad for it and promises not to do it again.

It's a learning experience for both the parent and child.

I think that the universe merchants are mentally unstable.

So your answer is that the reason is he called the people wicked? Because that's all we got. His idea of wickedness is accidentally worshiping false gods because you don't have specific revelation.

If God is subject to his emotions, where did God's emotions come from?

>Essentially these people have not been told a single thing about the nature of evil.

They didn't have to. Adam ate the fruit, and gained knowledge through it. Since at least one effect of this (modesty) continued, there is no reason to assume the others didn't.

> Because new testament theology has a very Platonic deity you just assume the Old Testament one must operate on the same rules.

Dude why are you assuming gods are just dudes with powers? That's dumb. Hindu gods and greek gods shapeshift all the time. That's not matter, that's something else.

>Hell you even assume the morality of Gensis is the same as in the other books.

Not really, it's pretty much all slavery.

Even post-Jesus it's still slavery.

HE ATE THE FRUIT AND IT GAVE HIM KNOWLEDGE.

YEHWEH THINKS THIS TO HIMSELF WHILE USING THE PLURAL FOR SOME REASON.

FUCKING HELL WHY IS THIS SO HARD FOR YOU?

See here.

Their knowledge is so undeveloped that they are still basically ignorant. And Yawheh isn't doing a good job explaining things to them.

This is entirely speculation on your part. You're asking me to discuss and debate your personal opinion now when you started with some statements on the nature of God.

You are literally putting words and thoughts into the people of the Bible. Of course they know not to murder. That is the entire point of Cain, who is like the third human.

Let me dumb it down even more. Say you have a child and you teach him him to add small numbers togeather. He know has "knowledge of math!" but he has a limited knowledge, he can't count higher than 5 for instance.

The fact that Yawheh needs to come up with a huge list of commandments (there are entire books in the bible with nothing but moral commandment) says these people's knowledge of good and evil is about the level of children.

So yes these people have knowledge of evil, an incomplete, uninformed, child like knowledge. And that's probably because at this point in time God himself doesn't know what evil is so he can't teach it.

>promises not to flood the earth again

No its much better that he should destroy it with fire and horrifying scorpion locust men

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever
>knowledge of good and evil flowing through every bit of your body comparable to God.
>underdeveloped
>underdeveloped
>underdeveloped
you aren't even reading the entire thread are you?
Cain knew to lie to God to cover up what he had done. your argument is that he wouldn't "understand" his actions until he read the Ten Commandments.

Pagan here, I feel like you're strawmanning really hard.

It says they have 'knowledge of good and evil', and hey obviously know some things are bad (see the modesty thing). I'm not about to go hunting around in genesis for examples o someone feeling guilt, but that seems the mostly likely explanation to me.

Anyway, remember we're slaves. You don't 'teach' a slave that's being disobedient what is wrong first, you beat the shit out them until they shut up and listen, then you teach.

DESU the OT to NT divide can be pretty easily explained by saying "Jesus died so people could move from Chattle-slavery (like the US had with black people) to Roman-style slavery (where the slave has inherent value and is to be cultivated into an asset).

I thank you for this thread, because it's helped me realized how well this fits.

Since slavery is inherently immoral, it also helps me argue against the Abrahamic religions.

>horrifying scorpion locust men
cool

>eating a divine fruit is the same as limited maths knowledge
You only managed to dumb it down for yourself.

But user, religion is by choice. Slavery by choice is not immoral.

Why do you think Yawheh needs to have 415 laws in the Old Testament? Why does he need to keep sending prophets that add more and more laws? Because these people do not know these moral laws in the first place.

Morality is something developed OVER TIME in the Old Testament.

>religion is by choice
>what is irresistible grace
Assuming we're talking about Christianity.

>religion is by choice.

Technically going by the OT it wasn't a choice for Jews.

The NT got weird. It /implies/ that everyone is already a slave by virtue of being created, but that a nice felow names Jesus negotiated a better contract for you, literally signed in blood.

Just pledge your soul to him on the dotted line.

Why does the blame lay with God and not Man?
That's not every denomination.

except that the laws of the torah aren't intended to be morals for all of humanity. they are the rules of a covenant between Israel and YHWH that Israelites are supposed to follow in return for possession of the land and prosperity.

They didn't develop morality at all. It's more like
>Prophet A says "don't have homo sex"
>WELL WHO CARES, SODOMY IS DELICIOUS
>Prophet B arrives and says "Guys seriously stop having sex with men, it makes God angry, he'll punish you hard"
>NO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT'S FUN TO EAT SEMEN YOU SHOULD TRY IT
>God finally has enough and sends an army/plague/famine/some other shit to punish them
>OH SHIT THE PROPHET WAS RIGHT GOD PUNISHED US PLS GOD WE'RE SORRY WE WON'T HAVE HOMO SEX AGAIN
>2 months later
>THIS GUY LOOKS PRETTY HOT THOUGH
And so on, they never evolved to anything, they just kept sinning and sinning like a bunch of stubborn faggots and even killed some of the prophets if they didn't like what they had to say.

If you don't believe in irresistible grace you don't believe in the Bible. It's right there.

This.

Note that according to the Jews iirc all gentiles have to do is abide by the ten commandments and their god is reasonably okay with them. Literally as good as it gets.

There's a verse in the OT where the people see a literal angel descended from heaven and their first instinct is for young and old to from a rape mob to fuck it.

There's no innocence of ignorance there.

fucking five point calvinist

There is no blame. Man is too undeveloped to be moral and Yawheh seems to have a poor grasp on the topic himself.

Yawheh gives protection and prospery inexchange for obeying his laws. That IS MORALITY in the Old Testament. Like that's literally what morality is about.

The new testament has a totally different concept of morality.

That's just propaganda from the New Testament. It's about as insightful to the discussion as the cartoon where Pop eye the Sailor fights the Japs is to a discussion about politics in WW2.

That's after God has had some time to flesh out what the hell morality is about and the people have grown up. Early Genesis is like a parent with anger problems interacting a bunch of toddlers. Later on the parent matures a little and the kids are a few years older.

>God lays out SPECIFIC instructions on what to do and not to do
>Jews refuse to follow them
That's not NT propaganda, that's right there in the OT.

>That's after God has had some time to flesh out what the hell morality is about and the people have grown up. Early Genesis is like a parent with anger problems interacting a bunch of toddlers. Later on the parent matures a little and the kids are a few years older.

The incident I was talking about predates the Ten Commandments. You have a point, but you are talking out of your ass to prove it.

You've got a cycle in the Old Testament. The Jews fuck shit up. God sends them a new prophet and things are happy. Than they fuck shit up again. It's a cycle of falling away from God than getting back to him.

The new testament propaganda basically says "since you do not accept our theology, which is the correct one, you are not obeying god". It's a propaganda piece

Yeah I'm trying to be general. Point is that Old Testament starts with people with really shitty understanding of morality who receive basically zero instructions. As it develops they become more aware of morality and the rule book gets fucking massive. God himself actually becomes more moral as it goes on. He's less of a psycho the further the story goes on.

The Book of Enoch elaborate's on God's reasoning for the flood, that wicked Angels had come down from heaven and corrupted humanity, teaching them profane practices such as warfare and seduction, and giving birth to the Nephilim who pretty much devoured all life on earth, anyways.