How is it so many cultures independently came up with the concept of a dragon?

I can't remember the sauce, but I distinctly remember reading a case where a Greek farmer dug up what are obviously (to us) dinosaur bone fossils and the whole town freaked out and took it as proof of crazy creatures from the titan age.

Romans when they explored African desert found a now famous dinosaur fossil 'graveyard' with megalodons.

I feel it is partially the inkling that there were giant creatures which roamed the land before people did. You find it in most mythologies. I Gine being a peasant and finding something like pic related?

Humans also generally seem to love composite animals.

The "Chinese Dragon" in it's earliest references is primarily referenced as having an almost serpent like figure. The Chinese word for dragon (龍) began it's life in oracle bone script as a picture of a whiskered serpant. We're not 100% sure where dragon's entered into Chinese culture but they have a lot of overlap with symbolism of a serpent coil. We've found at least one statue that we believe may be a dragon statue from the Yangshao culture (circa 5000 bc), and jade military rank crests that have the coiled dragon pattern from the Hongshan culture (4500 bc) but around 300 BC we're positive that the concept of a dragon exists as historian Chang Qu writes about the unearthing of "dragon bones".
We know now that many ancient Chinese culture's unearthed dinosaur bones of a species now known as Mei Long (or "sleeping dragon") and many of these fossils have been discovered in this "coiled" sleeping pattern Picture. I don't know enough about archeology to know why so many were discovered in that formation but it's clear that this had a huge impact on the dragon concept and symbolism around China.
As we know when myths and stories evolve and get passed down through generations they morph a great deal. Things get added, things get removed and somewhere between the period of 300 BC and the life of Han Dynasty scholar "Wang Fu" (82 AD - 167 AD), Dragon's became less dinosaur like and much more like sea serpents. Example of early Han period sculpture which shows the more long form Dragon.

Cont.

In Fu's writing we discover that there is the long standing myth that the ancient Chinese people believed themselves to be descended from Dragon's, which were seen as a sort of common ancestor between humans and "common animals". This lead to the common description of the "long dragon" which had, according to Fu, 9 anatomical similarities:
Antlers of a stag,
head of a camel,
eyes of a demon,
neck of a snake,
belly of a clam,
scales of a carp,
claws of an eagle,
soles of a tiger,
ears of a cow.

It's likely that the suggestion of a Dragon being a common ancestor slowly morphed the image of the Dragon further and further to show all the creatures represented within.
It's also worth noting that Chinese Dragon's do not have wings (at least in most depictions). The source of their flight, and ability to control water isn't a physical trait, but rather a mystical energy which stems from their "Chinu" 尺木 or a lump on their head.

European Dragon's on the other hand seems to primarily exist due to extended legend rather than any particular discoveries. To understand the British Dragon (what you may know as a "Fire-Breathing Dragon") you need to understand a bit about other European dragon myths as unlike the Asian dragon the British one didn't stem from fossils. For while Greek, Roman, Chinese and Persian scholars had brief flings with archeology, Europe in the Middle Ages is rather a barren wasteland in this field. The few references that we have to fossil's at this time suggest they were thought of as "works of the devil" or remains of "vis plastica" a molding force that God used to give shape to the world.
From what we've turned up, a lot of the European belief in dragon's (specifically the British Fire-breathing dragon) is primarily influenced from other mythical cultures (Greek, Germanic, Norse, and even Roman fables).

Cont.

Most of these seem to stem from the classic Greek δράkων (drákōn) which while little is written about, seems to be very serpent like in Greek classic art Example of a Greek Dragon on a Vase. Which is remarkably similar to the Chinese version of a Dragon that would have been evolving in concept at roughly the same time. One of the most noted examples of the Greek Dragon would be Λάδων or "Ladon", a serpent dragon slain by Heracles, which we hear about in Hesiod's "Theogony".
Throughout the Germanic/Nordic regions of the middle ages the overlap between dragons and serpents continues. In Germanic mythology the "wurm/wyrm" is a type of serpent (often pictured with two legs and wings), in Finnish "lohikäärme" is believed to either stem from louhi (Mountain) käärme (Snake) or the Norse word lógi meaning "fire".

For those less familiar with how all these societies inter-mingled in this time period a short (and way too over simplified version) is that Britain in the Middle Ages was a hodge-podge of mainland cultures. There were Roman, Germanic, Saxon and Scandinavian presences here that brought with them myths, beliefs and language from the Greeks, Romans, Norse, and Old Germanic cultures, as well as possibly passing along myths and stories from further reaching cultures and experiences from the Middle East, Northern Africa and into Asia (it's worth noting that while this is commonly listed as speculation as it is hard for us to validate the passing of verbal myths, it's pretty viable that culture was easily spread across "The Roman Empire" which spanned from modern day Egypt, Sudan, Syria & Turkey all the way along to Spain and up to the tip of Britain.

Cont.

In the west the most common view of a "Dragon" is what may be called more formally the "English Dragon" or the "British Dragon". The primary distinction here is that somewhere the British Dragon veered away from the European and Greek serpents and started to evolve an imagery of its own.
There are likely a few things that influenced this, but these are much more speculative than research I've seen about Chinese Dragons:
1) Christianity: With Christianity being a key force in Middle Britain most myth's and commonly held beliefs at the time were quickly used/responded to by the church in order to help with the adoption of faith. In the Bible there is a very strong connection between Satan and the Serpent namely in the story of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:1), where an evil "nahash" (Hebrew: Serpent) tricks Eve into eating the Forbidden Fruit. Later in the Bible (Gensis 3:14-15) God also curses the serpent, although admittedly I don't know enough to understanding the reasoning behind this or it's implications; but it is clear that the concept of a serpent has a very negative image in Christianity. So Norse, Germanic and Greek myths that were translated referring to a "serpent" would take on an evil and negative light in the eyes of a Christian audience. (It's also worth noting that the word Dragon is used twice in the King James Bible, first in Revelation 12:9 and then again in Isaiah 27:1. In both cases "the dragon" is a second name given to the "old serpent" or "crooked serpent" which is a phrase frequently used to refer to the Devil/Satan.
This is also likely the reason why Dragon's were seen as terrible beasts that needed to be defeated. The fire-breathing was tacked on as a symbol of the devil and hellfire, and they started stealing Princesses (as in the Middle Ages royalty were seen as those chosen by God, and an extension of God on earth. Therefore a beast of Satan would want to displace their influence by placing them in a tower or what-not).

2) Bats/Flight: Another way that the British Dragon is different than classic European and Asian dragons is the almost "bat-like" wings it has. When we look at dragon myths in other cultures the notion of dragons "flying" is quite common; and while in Chinese cultures it is explained by their "Chinu" 尺木, it isn't something that is commonly referenced. This tweak to the Dragon likely stemmed from stories of dragons flying across the land. The only things that flew around Britain at that time were bats and birds, when myths of a flying serpent hit the Isle it's not a huge leap to assume that the logic was "if these beasts fly, they have wings. They don't have feathers so it isn't bird wings. Must be more like bat wings". We know the concept of wings evolved later in the middle ages as the early exposure to the concept of Dragons would have come from the Roman presence in England and the "dacian draco", a marching banner carried by some Roman legions.
In fact the first reference we see to a dragon "flying" in this part of the world is in the saga Beowulf (700–1000 AD), but it's worth noting that there isn't a single mention of wings or any mechanism of flight which becomes very common imagery later on.

3) Spitting Cobras: Another unique trait of the British dragon is the fact that it spits fire. While nowadays we refer to them as fire "breathing" dragons early texts suggested that spat, flung or even belched fire. When the view of the British dragon is so heavily shaped by Christianity it is important to remember that the bulk of Christian tradition is shaped by ancient Hebrew culture both linguistically and culturally.

The "bible" we know in modern christianity stems from the old testament (primarily the "hebrew bible") and the new testament (a greek work). In the Biblical Hebrew we see references of "Seraph [שָׂרַף]" which root words seem to be a blend of "Serpent [נָחָשׁ]" and for something to "burn [לשרוף]" or be "fiery [לוהט]". The commonly accepted translation is that "Seraph" are "fiery serpents" (often which are said to be flying). However, many scholars suggest that the use of the English root "fire" and descriptive "fiery" are a poor translation. The reason the Hebrew words for poison and burn share a similar root is due to the "burning" sensation of poisons; this poor translation could lead to the belief the serpents had some element of "fire" to them when instead they were attacking with a venom.
Worth noting on this idea is the fact that there are a number of venom spitting serpents that lived (and were imported/exported) around Egypt, Jordan, Syria during this time period and so stories of a serpent spitting a "burning" venom was likely what shaped the biblical "fire serpents". The English translation of fire spitting serpents likely seeped into the myth of the British dragon through Christianity.
Note: Also in the bible we have this concept of seraphim which were being's that apparently flew around God's throne. While many Biblical scholars debate any link between the seraphim and the seraph, the description of them makes an interesting case. The being described as a six-winged creature that covered its face with two wings, its legs with two wings and left only their hands and trunks uncovered.

Humans have innate fear of snakes.

We have mythology based on some of our primal fears.

So we created big fucking scary world eating serpents.

Then we, as children upping one another started adding awesome and scarey features to the already big serpent.

Imagine a serpent... with WINGS and Claws, And Big teeth and Poison breath and blood, Breeding FUCKING FIRE

the process is somewhat universal

Because they were real obviously

St John of Damascus: St John of Damascus was a syrian monk and scholar which wrote a number of works which could be considered fairly "sober" thought for the time period. In his works, St John refers to Dragons a few times throughout his work:
"Dragons, he tells us, were vulgarly supposed to be huge snakes"
"[he] does not deny the existence of dragons, but maintains that they are nothing but serpents, of greater size than ordinary"
"He quotes the story of Dion Cassius, about the huge serpent killed by Regulus and his army when crossing the Bagradas, the skin of which was afterwards sent to Rome, and when measured proved to be 120 feet long"
Overall he seems to suggest that dragons are nothing more than large reptiles that people have run into on rare occasions and the stories of them have evolved into absurd myths. (In some other works John does seem to contradict himself but those works may not be in their original condition).

Ulisse Aldrovandi: Ulisse Aldrovandi was the father of natural history studies, an Italian naturalist who lived between 1522- 1605 he spent a great deal of time cataloging living specimen (he also became the first professor of natural sciences at the University of Bologna).
Aldrovandi wrote a number of books cataloguing various species, including "a history of monsters" in which he catalogued unproven fables. Yet the fascinating case for this topic is that dragons don't make an appearance in that book but rather a book called "Historia Serpentum et Draconum" (the history of serpents and dragons) in which Ulisse Aldrovandi tells us of a small hissing "dragon" he had been brought to see on May 13, 1572 on a farm not far from Bologna.

He describes the creature as "definitely a reptile" but the first of its kind it had seen. He said it was a small specimen, likely young in age based on its claws and teeth. It was only two-feet long and while it had legs seemed to move in a slithering fashion. It could hold its head up in the air and it hissed like a snake, it's long neck had a series of white markings around it. While the event is often called "the last dragon slaying in europe" - it's an interesting case as the description doesn't sound too far off from creatures similar to a Komodo Dragon, Giant Plated Lizard, Monitor Lizard or even a Nile Crocodile. While most of these lizards (and many other large Lizard species) weren't native to Italy it certainly isn't possible that due to accidently travel (or human import) that a large lizard was simply out of place and brought to life this myth.
Arizona's Winged Dragon:
On April 26th, 1890 Arizona's local paper the Tombstone Epitaph reported that two men had shot down a large winged monster on the Huachuea desert.

Described as a huge alligator with an immense pair of wings, that was 92 feet in length, had a diameter of fifty inches and had two feet near where the wings joined the body. They claim the wing span was 160 feet in length and that the body was simply covered in smooth skin.
While the newspaper story was believed to be a hoax to try and sell more papers, the story stands out as quite interesting as it's a fairly accurate description of the Quetzelcoatlus (a large flying dinosaur that's fossil's have frequently been found in Texas and the surrounding area); and it matches up with local Navajo (native american tribe) stories about a large flying beast called the Thunderbird.

The final note to end the conversation on dragons and how the myth evolved is with some words from Carl Sagan. Sagan once remarked "The pervasiveness of dragon myths in the folk legends of many cultures is probably no accident". Sagan ultimately suggested that the widespread belief in dragons is part of a "fossil memory". They like instincts are passed down genetically through generations of our evolution. We inherited these "memories" from our early mammalian ancestors who had to compete with great lizards, and since then we've been mashing those memories into our own reality and creating myths that overlap profoundly with natural history. Sagan's theory attempts to describe how groups who had not knowledge of ancient beasts could have created myths that accurately described dinosaurs in that region.
All in all Dragon's are a diverse class of creatures in myth. Just like the dinosaurs and serpents on which they are based. Our culture, religion and even language has shaped the pictures we paint of them and chances are they will only continue to evolve as we pass on these stories.

When you look at the morphology of Dragons throughout all cultures, they display every predator assets the first men had to look out for. Maybe monkeys (and apes) would believe in dragons if they had the capacity to.

>Scales and fangs like snakes and large reptiles, our most ancien predators
>Claws and sometimes head of large mammals such as lions
>Talons and wings like birds of prey
>They breathe fire, you know that thing that could wipe out your whole hunting ground and kill your entire tribe in excruciating pain

So you combine these 3 predators (serpents, carnivores and large birds) and you get a mythical creature that pops up independantly all around the world. Eventually the folkflore tales and legends about dragons lead to us taking control of the dragon because we as a specie are able to more or less tame these predators.
Saint Georges kills the Dragon representing evil, but the same stories exist in Persia's national epic Shahnameh or in the epic of Gilgamesh, Eastern asian culture started using dragon less as a spooky-monster figure and finally associated it with divine power, with Emperors being said to descend from dragons and putting dragon statues all over the place.
I don't know much about the dragons in pre-columbian america, although Quetzalcoatl:
>feathered
>serpent
>deity

youtube.com/watch?v=6grLJyqIM8E
this

Mesoamerica had the feathered serpent sometimes plurally (as in many of them). Also fish serpents or human/serpent/fish hybrids which were water spirits, sometimes depicted as sea creatures sometimes as mermaid like called Chicchan for Maya and Tlanchana for the Aztecs. And sea serpent monsters, as well in Maya myths. There was also the cosmic serpent which had deer attrributes and represented the skyband.

Actually according to Adrienne Mayor it is this

Probably because snakes were one of our enemies for several million years.

>every culture has myths about dragons
>every culture has myths about giants
>every culture has myths about a world destroying flood
>every culture saw the exact same shapes in the constellations
>every culture has stories of werewolves/men turning into animals
>every culture has invented the bow and arrow

Serpent, winged serpent, dragon, leviathan, behemoth; these would be words people used before the word "dinosaur" was coined in the 19th century AD.

Or of course if they want to call the Komodo dragon a dragon. Or a bearded dragon. Both are dinosaurs.

more info on the forth one? The last one isn't even very remarkable.

>How is it so many cultures independently came up with the concept of a dragon?

innate idea. it was put into the minds of people by a dragon god

Only logical post but I see everyone ignored it

They're nothing alike, Europeans just heard stories about these fictional creatures and thought 'hey, they must be the same thing as our fictional creatures' and called them dragons.

>You will never have absolute belief that there existed a time before where dragons and spiritual creatures existed
Man I just can't imagine how it feels to live thinking there is no border between the mythological realm and the real realm. Would've been cool.

>implying Euro dragons are never depicted similarly to eastern ones

Why do you think they're called serpents and wyrms?

yeah i was also wondering
no way everybody made that scorpio thing

History channel please leave.

The real question, which is the coolest?
European dragon
Asian dragon
Or American dragon (which were more like snakes really but eh oh well)

Why? This is actually a good thread. It's more evolutionary history than history and humanities but there were many facinating cultural myths and stories mention ITT too. Stop being obtuse.

>>every culture has invented the bow and arrow

why do you say stupid shit like this user

Dinosaur fossils

Pretty sure Australian Abos didn't have bows.

I think it's interesting how back in the day dragons weren't majestic and awesome, but small, freaky and disgusting

it would be cool to see these depictions in modern media

another rare george

Nope.jpg

Its just a bunch of unrelated/barely mythical beings labelled "dragons" by people looking for similarities.

I don't think the Chinese "Long" had anything in similarity to its "Draco" counterpart in the west. Even as "reptiles" it isn't, since the Chink dragon is an amalgam of beasts. (Deer antlers, fish scales, serpentine body, dog's head, lizard legs).

In addition it is pretty telling how China used to translate Western Dragons: 魔鬼 (Mogui= demonic entity) instead of "龍" (Long, the Chink dragon.)

Why are dragons and other snake like creatures evil in some myths, but helpful saviors in others?

This kinda has that feel.

no, but they had boomerangs and those are basically bow-shaped

>every culture has myths about a world destroying flood

All early civs were based around rivers

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_dragon
What did they mean by this?

Did they discover some well-preserved dino egg?
Did they realize human fetuses and pig fetuses were the same?
What impressed them to make these?

better picture maybe

Hatred/fear of snakes is a universal thing for humans.

Thus "dragon" "concept" is created. Early dragons of east/west are basically snake-like beings. Why did the western dragon grow legs and become basic 4 legged creature? Possibly in relation to the threat caused by lions and combining the two elements together (consciously or subconsciously).

Why the chinese dragon basically stayed the same? Possibly due to exposure to eels?

The concept of dragon is also altered by the mentality of the civilization. The east viewed dragon with revere and a neutral force. The west viewed it as a demonic/evil force.

Westerners are more dumb and superstitious? Chinese are more educated and not? Obviously these are just jokes, don't get so butthurt.

Who knows.

>global flood
>"it's just rivers, goy"

>white people can't control river floods
>blame god for "global flood"

>chinese/egyptians build dams to control their flooding river
>chinese make it their founding story

Really makes you think

>the chinese character for 'flood' is the combination of the character for 'boat' and the number '8' as in the amount of people that were in the ark
makes you think

>Hatred/fear of snakes is a universal thing for humans.

That may be true, but snakes are the good guys in a surprising amount of mythologies. The rainbow serpent is a creator god some African religions, and nagas are usually helpful like in this post: This is a poorly written wiki but it's definitely worth checking out: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

Hebrews made it a evil thing I think.

Possibly why dragons are seen as evil in the west since the spread of Christianity happened.

>The rainbow serpent is a creator god some African religions
I'm pretty sure that's Aboriginal Australian

Serpents were evil in numerous mythologies / religions before Christianity.

See Tiamat

When did dragons go extinct?

Tiamat was a goddess of the sea. She creates many other gods.

And according to wiki, the killing of the Tiamat is a later modification which is attributed to a change in political(religious) climate.

>Implying you have seen evidence for every scientific fact you have been told to be true

In some way, we still luve myths era

They both have a rainbow serpent.

>that pic
>that GET
How did this post go so long without a (you)?

WE

get those voodoo veve's out of here bwana

The only logical explanation is that humans existed while dinosaurs existed, and passed the story down through oral tradition. There's literally no other explanation.

Intresting read. Thanks user.

Australian abos aren't even homo sapiens so what's your point?

Why did so many cultures came up with the concept of the gryphon?

Scythian

Apulia, South Italy.

Persia

Pylos

>the chinese character for 'flood' is the combination of the character for 'boat' and the number '8'
>t. I'm talking trough my ass
"Flood" in Chinese is wrote as "洪水" which has nothing to do with boat and 8.

You couldn't even understand the proof of most things you take as granted, if you are not educated on the subject. That's the beauty of humanity, we just kinda fool ourselves into believing we know facts.

You can know with absolute certainty that there was a time, literally so far into the past that it surpasses even the wildest imaginations of the ancients, where there were fucking giant lizards and fucking giant sharks fighting each other, eating other giant animals and insects.

You can know for a FACT, because you've seen real life images of it, that there are gigantic squids roaming the depths of the ocean, big enough to probably be a real threat to an ancient ship if they wanted to, and there is nothing to stop you from believing some of the gigantic retarded creatures from the past aren't still roaming down there, since the whole "well we've only explored like 2% of the ocean" is definitely a good incentive to do so.
The monsters are still there, now we just call them animals and make them sushi, because we've become big guys ourselves. So big that not even the biggest animals in the world could hope to face us if we have our weapons with us.

I don't get pic related.

Didn't Arabs tought of it first and then Greeks just stole it and slammed their names? I don't know about Asia though

Apperantly Chinese dragons are suppose to be like wise sages or something. Western dragons on the other hand are depicted as being obsessed about gold, like Smaug in the hobbit.

Because a lot of cultures saw scaly animals and flying animals and decided to mix the two together in fiction? Duh? That's like saying "how is it that so many cultures all invented blunt combat tools". Similar environments means similar development. If both cultures need to cut down a tree, they'll both eventually invent something like an axe. If both cultures have lizards and snakes and shit, both cultures will invent the idea of something that's "dragon-like".

>n-no it means that people actually hung out with dinosaurs like Kenn Ham told me!
Do not listen to these people. There's nothing which requires that people have to actually see real dragons to think up the idea of a dragon. Posting lots of pictures of the dragons people have though up doesn't really change that.

nice

That dragon looks like Haku from Spirited Away though.That's why I thought it was some type of obscure meme.

Look mom I'm debunking something that was never implied by OP

there's also quetzalcoatl