Latin America

Stuff like the division of New Granada seems equivalent to if America was divided among the thirteen colonies. I know that autonomy or states rights were important in America and an issue that had to be solved with a compromise, but why didn't the Latinos solve this.

Cities had commerce rivalries, for example Buenos Aires and Montevideo were competing ports. Paraguay was isolationist and self-sufficient already in colonial times. Things like that create national identities.

>same ancestory
Nope.

>same language
Yes.

>same dominant ethnic group and culture
Nope.

Latin America had a much more ,dare I say, "Aristocratic" foundation than the Thirteen Colonies. This meant that all the various territories were ruled much like the personal fiefs of various family lineages who had every interest in keeping things as decentralized as possible in order to preserve their power. Similar issues almost destroyed the U.S at its founding, and these problems were so much worse in Latin America that it's no wonder they never unified.

the UK and later France favored independences too

>>same ancestory

No

>>same language

Same de facto language*, not even close to being a mother tongue in any country

>>same dominant ethnic group

lel

>and culture

AYY LMAO

Also, that's Hispanic America without the USA's territories, not Latin America

Fucking this.

They'll be better off exterminating the natives.

>not even close to being a mother tongue in any country
I agree with most of your post but that right there is horse shit. If Spanish isn't the mother tongue of AT LEAST Uruguay I'll eat my fucking hat.

You don't even know what Latin America is so how is anyone meant to take your questions seriously?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Languages_of_Uruguay

Im pretty sure that doesn't include the descendants of Germans and Italians who like to speak on said languages to be special and shit.

Sure, everybody understands and speaks Spanish, but a lot of people get a little bit defensive when it comes to defend their actual mother tongue.

I´m uruguayan, we speak spanish and a portuguese dialect in the north. I´m bilingual.

Obvious b8 but

>same ancestory
No

>same language
Like Jamaica and USA or Haiti and Quebec

>same dominant ethnic group and culture
No (again). Go back to /pol/, Pedro

>for some reason 20 small weak countries instead of a single powerful one
Like Europe?

>What the fuck happened? The USA managed to unify and become strong, so why didn't these guys?
Considering your american tier assumptions, I doubt you'd be able to even understand an answer to this.

I did some research and apparently Spanish is recorded as the first language of the vast majority of the population. I'm talking 99% territory. Is there any confirmation to that or is it exaggerated?

I'm getting the hat ready in case I'm wrong. I knew about the old immigration from the 19th-20th Centuries and that there were some native languages, but I'd honestly be surprised if there were significant enough presence for it to challenge Spanish as the mother tongue there.

Like I said, Spanish IS the de facto language, everybody not only in Uruguay but Latin America knows it and understands it, that's not the problem. There are many populations that because of many different reasons speak another language, and in many countries those languages were suppressed because they were seen as an obstacle to the "unification" of the populations, muh Spanish unites everybody and so on.

Nobody cares about that any more, but many people is still very mad about said suppression and with the "modern" ideas of diversity and what not, more and more different groups are using their mother languages more and more and ask for said languages to be recognized.

I wouldn't say is a big issue but it is an issue (including people trying to protect muh heritage and what not).

Apart from places like Bolivia or native american populations (which are few), close to 0% of the population speaks anything other than spanish and a very very rough english they learned in highschool. The only people who speak other languages are old people, sons of Italian or German immigrants. I live in Argentina though so that may be it.

Define "many". Because I believe the people you're referring to are a pretty small bunch.

>What the fuck happened?

Excluding the different Amerindian groups all over the continent, I can only talk about my country, Costa Rica.

15% of the population speaks Criollo English (numbers going as low as 6 - 9% but whatever), they were one of the groups oppressed from 1936 - 1949.

Around 5% of the population speaks Italian, specifically in the South. The numbers were higher but they were one of the groups oppressed during the period mentioned above and many of their descendants are trying to "revive" the language in the country.

And of course, around 10% of the population who speaks another language which is still going ~strong and what to preserve it.

>Argentina

What about those Welsh guys?

they speak spanish

Isn't Uruguays native language from the natives the themselves hence the mother tongue? Spanish is a foreign language.

No, guarani disappeared in the late 19th century from rural areas due to public schools teaching only spanish. Portuguese persisted because proximity to Brasil.

Who are the most numerous/main amerindians in Costa Rica?

That's Paraguay

Every single latin american country has developed a unique cultural identity. Mexico alone is a cultural giant. The only similarity between these countries is the fact that the majority of them speak spanish, yet the many slangs, and dialects vary a lot.

The Bri Bri, around 20 000, then the Cabecas, around 17 000, but these two different tribes are considered members of an "alliance" so technically they are the same "tribe".

You could say the biggest one are the Ngäbe, around 200 000, but they travel constantly between CR and Panamá. Also, all these numbers differ depending on who you ask and what you consider to be a "real" Amerindian (this includes the Chibchas "laws" regarding tribe, clan and so on).

Some say there are around 100 000 Bri Bri, but that's including "mixed" ones or those who don't fill the traditional laws regarding tribe. There is a current problem with the Bri Bris, the Cabecars and the Ngäbe regarding tribe membership, and therefore, land rights.

According to the Chibcha laws, which didn't consider Europeans or Africans, a tribe is defined by your mother, therefore, if your mom is Maleku you are Maleku, if your mom is Bri Bri you are Bri Bri, your father's tribe doesn't matter on this. A clan is defined by your dad, you will always be part of your dad's clan.

The problem with clans is that they are considered your extended family, every member is your uncle, aunt, cousin, whatever, and because of this, it is incest (a very big sin in all of Chibcha mythology because of some reason, like, a very big deal) to have sexual relations or marry them. Clans usually live together, so everybody around you is a "family" member, so people had to go away and find partners. Mixing between tribes or clans wasn't an issue and was actually encouraged, but of course, some tribes were enemies and what not.

Anyway, because of this, many Amerindians who lived surrounded only by clan members HAD to mix with White, Black or Mixed people, to avoid "incest", but thanks to the law, men who had children with non Amerindian women, now had "tribeless" children, and women who mixed with not Amerindian men had non Amerindian kids who are considered "full" Indians.

Because of this, now you have people who is 99% Amerindian but who descends from a non Amerindian matrilineal line who is considered by some non Amerindian, and people who look 100% White or Black who is considered full Amerindian because they descend from a matrilieal Amerindian line.

Now you have them fighting all over about who is a real member of their tribe or "race", who has a right to what and what not. You need to understand that we have reservation here, so this is actually and issue.

There is this case of a man who was Bri Bri and married a Canadian woman, their children are being kicked out of the land because they are not "Bri Bri" anymore, and people who accuse them of not being Bri Bri anymore are equally mixed but their mom is Bri Bri.

Its a fucking mess, the Bri Bri don't want to live with the Ngäbe, they always fight, racism, muh tribe, the UN had to intervene and didn't do shit. A mess.

Patagonian welsh here. We speak spanish, we are argentinians, some more than 5 generations. The language is alive and taught but outside muh heritage it has no use.

Ps: we hate the english 10000 times more than the average argentinian

Jesus christ what a mess.

I'm now imagining a Welshman in Argentine uniform in the Falklands shooting at paratroopers. >"Me taid told me about you fooking bastards! I'll have a tidy swill in English blood, I will!"

Yeah, the worst part is that, as usual, leftists, human rights organizations, blame the government, because of course is the evil >White men government fucking the poor humble Amerindians, even the United Nations tried to blame the government. Its actually sad and funny at the same time, seeing those sheltered commies (actual ones) going there to "help" the poor indians who suffer racism and actually seeing racism for the first time.

A Bri Bri school teacher refused to give lectures to non bri bri children, a woman was killed by his Cabecar father for mixing with a "sub human" Ngäbe (you see, the Bri Bri and Cabecares used Ngäbes as Slaves back then), and there was this time the UN and some commies arrived and there were some teens with some stamps on their necks because they were being singled out from the Cabecar and Bri Bri people.

I agree in the sense that this was the government's fault, but not the recent ones, bu the one which 30 years ago or so thought it was a good idea to make those retarded reservations

>try to do something to appeal to the SJW
>literally start a race war by following the ignorant commie idea of the Amerindians being a single mass of people who dance to the sun and what not

I wont say this is a issue in the rest of the country or with the other tribes, only those three constantly fight.

There is a british movie about the Falklands that has a irish-argentine soldier character that kinda talks like that.

Can't remember the title now. It's just one bit though, not a principal character

Dealing with similar shit in the US. To use the Cherokee as an example (I'm most familiar with them, and they're a major tribe), you have near full bloods with absolutely no tribal rights because their ancestors were settlers in Arkansas or Texas somewhere when the Dawes Rolls were being compiled in Indian Territory, or they DID live in Indian Territory and chose not to enroll because "Fuck the government." On the other hand, you have people on the rolls way back when who were as little as 1/32 Cherokee, but them and all their living descendants are entitled to tribal rights. To confuse things even further, many Cherokee (and Choctaw, Chickasaw, and Creek) owned slaves. At the time of abolition, you had black folks in Indian territory speaking fluent Cherokee, with little to no understanding of English. By treaty, these ex-slaves (the so-called Cherokee Freedmen), became tribal members with full rights. Today, in Oklahoma, you can find full-bloods with no vote in the Cherokee Nation and card carrying "Indians" without a drop of Cherokee blood.

The problem here is that it was merely a populist decision back in the 70's. While we are a very centralized country we started, we were even more centralized back then and in the 50's is when everything started to change and to be an actual policy of decentralization. Then in the 70's the government tried to attack the issue of poverty of certain regions, and they saw the places with a big number of Amerindians.

They didn't give to shits about poor people, they just wanted something to take people's attention, so they decided to concentrate on those places and said that people there were poor because of the racism of the past governments against Amerindians. They ignored places were Black, White or mixed people were the majority, and ignored those same groups on the places they now claimed were "Indian towns".

Their solution to the problem was to create reservations, as a way of giving the Amerindians the land so they could live like they wanted... Problem, they already owned the land, with titles and the such, so what the government did was give them a symbolic cent for the property...

Many Amerindians, of course, sold what they could and left (this brings us another problem, third parties with property titles) before of the government's expropiations, but many couldn't, lost their land, and got stuck on "Indian reservations", fighting for everything. Those reservations became like time capsules, while everything around them developed they got stuck in the 70's.

This also brings us to the problem of the administration of those reservations, which has to follow their "traditions", this of course, is used by many for their fights and to steal. There was this case of an Amerindian dude who opened a motorcycle repair shop, someone who hated him reported him because that was against their traditions so he lost his shop and had to get out, sometimes people with more than 30 000 USD on savings has to leave or give it to the "council". Fuckin' shit.

During the wars of independence, there was some sense of a common identity among the former Spanish colonies. However, the collapse of the colonial system pretty much dismantled the previous social order and plunged most of these areas into chaos. The racial policies that had defined the Spanish caste system created a rift between creoles and lower classes, which made representative government difficult to establish. They also no longer had Spain's protectionist economic policies to shield them from competition, which allowed British and American industry to drive their economies to the ground. Costly civil wars and broken economies left most of these countries divided and dysfunctional, which didn't help the goal of establishing a pan-national state.

>not even close to being a mother tongue in any country
Are you stupid?

>crying_Bolivar.png

there aint no way Im teaming up with a peruvian

Here in the NoA a lot of people speak native languages. But only as second languages.

We however use a lot of native words mixed into Spanish.

This is why it's fucking retarded to treat natives as a separate group. Just fucking make them regular citizens of the country.
Let them keep their gay ass languages and traditions if they want, it's not like they are breaking any laws.

San Martin and Bolivar wanted all of South America and Panama to be a single US-like country, with the family of the Inca emperor as the constitutional monarch (because it was the early 1800s). And it would of worked if not for those pesky porteños.

So everyone told San Martin to fuck off, nobody could agree on anything, the British stuck their nose as usual (tho they had it stuck in since day 1 admittedly), the administrative side of the revolutionary leaders went "NUH-UH, WE WANTZ REPUBLIC", Bolivar was also told to fuck off soon after. And everything was horrible forever. The republicans also ruined everything in Mexico a few decades afterwards.

>This is why it's fucking retarded to treat natives as a separate group. Just fucking make them regular citizens of the country.

They are, that's not the issue, the problem is regarding their lands and poverty if they live on a reservation.

>Let them keep their gay ass languages and traditions if they want, it's not like they are breaking any laws.

Literally not a problem for anybody who is not a raging Latin American commie.

Having them on a reservation excludes them from being "normal" citizens. In the US they literally do not answer to the federal goverment, but rather their own goverment, and are treated as an independent nation-state that exists within the boundaries of the US.

>Having them on a reservation excludes them from being "normal" citizens

They don't have to live there, and I understand what you are saying, but reservations work like any other Canton of the country, but with a different "political" organization.

What I'm trying to say is that besides living there, they are no different than other citizen, but they do have a disadvantage. They don't own the land, if they do something that could be called "non traditional" they can be kicked out, if they marry someone of the wrong race their kids can't live there, and so on.

Shit nigga, this Amerindian woman who became a doctor (and was hailed as some kind of trophy by the left of the country) was kicked out of her home because becoming a doctor was against the "traditional medicine" of the Cabecar so she broke the rules and had to get out of the reservation.

I agree, reservations doesn't work, but its more complicated than that, its a mix of politics, corruption, weird religious and cultural ideas, and what not. If someone tries to abolish them and give the people there property titles, the left would probably call them "Nazis" trying to destroy their culture and heritage. You need to comprehend that the Latin American left idolizes poverty and a weird idea of what being "Amerindian" is, and I'm telling you this because this is a current discussion regarding reservations, and one of the arguments against abolishing them is that the "Indios" would then mix with everybody else and become "modern", losing their traditions like magic medicine which kills many of them every year.

I am fully aware of what the latin american left is like, don't worry. I'm just can't help but point out how retarded they are.

This

...

I am Uruguayan and a german descendant too. Spanish IS the mother tounge of the vast majority of the population.

>let them keep
They learn their language by their mothers. If you want them to be isolated then don't let them vote. The unique way to escape poverty is financial education and spanish language learning.

I've seen the same "let them be ignorant and be themselves" many times in the last half century. How do you think there are amerindian quechua fags that have degrees and bussinesses? They got it thanks to superior education.

>
Shit nigga, this Amerindian woman who became a doctor (and was hailed as some kind of trophy by the left of the country) was kicked out of her home because becoming a doctor was against the "traditional medicine" of the Cabecar so she broke the rules and had to get out of the reservation.

Are the elders, caciques or whoever rules the place simply retarded? One thing is to abuse the system for your own benefit, just classic latam behaviour (partially imported from south europe). Another very different shit is to shot at your own foot by literally antagonizing people that could bring you benefit. Everyone with some brains could see how benefical is to have this super cool doctor native woman even if it's just to show it to the lefties.

>get doctor to the tribe
>suddenly papa state cuts your sanitary gibs and inserts his nose on your young ones who want to become doctors too.

There is not an authentic commom european sentiment. There is not an amerindian commom sentiment.

Normal people just want gibs and don't change things.

SA was liberated by Bolivar and San Martín, followed by a select group of military commanders. Both had the same plan and are alleged to have known each other before the war.

Suposedly, the original plan of the south american revolutionaries was to create an ethnostate inspired from the incas. Of course, when the push came to shove the second best option choosen was a republic.

However, they failed to account that non-coastal cities where way more autonomous than the rest of the virreinato territories. Caudillos (basically warlords in peacetime) ruled supreme and wanted no leaders but themselves.

Bolivar was relatively successful and managed to keep his virreinato, which was under much closer scrutiny than the south, united.

San martín however was instantly rejected by the caudillos, the Provincias del Sur goverment (proto-argentina) refused him a proper army despite San Martín saving their collective ass, and as soon as he crossed the Andes began to fight between themselves and eventually splintered into paraguay, uruguay and other argie provinces.

Given that San martín had no political back to make Chile join the provincias del sud,he abandoned the plan and proceeded to aid any revolutionary force he found

Eventually Martín and Bolivar met in Peru, where they allegedly discussed why their plan failed. Bolivar's success in the end was also relative: Gran Colombia splintered due to internal strife

tl;dr the revolutionaries wanted to be a unified state but the caudillos won't let them

literally the only places where spanish is not the mother tongue is north paraguay and parts of bolivia, and that's only because guaranis where left alone for most of their history.

seriously how can gringos be so ignorant about this

>mexican empire

latins never do anything right, see the problems they cause when they enter functioning societies in large numbers

Because the collapse of the imperial government. The only country that wanted to be part of spain at the end of the napoleonic wars was mexico, but king Ferdinand was an autist with a low iq. Instead of forming a new kingdom in mexico ruled by him as emperor, he wanted to keep the system that was completely outdated.

Daily reminder that criollos and mostly spanish mestizos have culture more spanish than people in spain.

>Are the elders, caciques or whoever rules the place simply retarded?

There are no "elders" or kings, just an organization of corrupt faggots who want to take all the land they can for themselves and keep most of the other "indians" literally oppressed and uneducated. They saw an opportunity on that girl becoming a doctor, they could kick her out and her family, take her house and their land.

This happens all the time, football players, dudes who open a business, people who earn some money, etc. There is a ring of corruption between them and two of the commie parties her

>hey, you can't take her home because you went to Uni
>MUH TRADITIONS, THE WHITE MAN TRYING TO DESTROY OUR CULTURE
>the press of course eats this up

Then again, this only happens on the reservations of the South, where the Bri Bri, Cabecar and Ngäbe live.

> Charruan Languages
You didn't even bother to check their wikipedia pages, they are all extinct, no one speaks them and all Charruas were killed.

>Spanish Language, Rioplantense Spanish, Uruguayan Spanish
They are all the same, NOT different languages.

>Lunfardo
Old slang that came with the italian immigrants, you can see it today in Tango. Not many expressions have survived. IT'S (old) SLANG.

>Plautdietsch language
2000 speakers? Impressive.

> Uruguayan portugese; Portuñol
Spoken by people who live near the border, it's not a formal language by any means it just happens to take place because of the interaction with people that speak a different langauge. Happens in every single border anywhere.

>Versre
Can't believe this is listed in Wikipedia. It's part of our slang, something we do while SPEAKING SPANISH.

Some people do speak their langauge as heritage but they don't really care, it's useless here and most immigrants lost their language when they came here in only one generation.

You said it yourself, you live in the north.

We use lunfardo expressions constantly, boludo.

My bad, when saying old I didn't mean extinct, It's just not as prominent as it used to be, we are switching to more modern expresions fastly.
We use many words and expresions from Lunfardo but not as many as we used to and some of them were simply forgotten.
Lunfardo came to be in a time where some social classes and certain groups of our society where actively creating new slang, today new sectors of society have taken that role so no new Lunfardo.

>Versre
There is something like that in french, interesting i didn't it existed in spanish too.

You can't avoid them. That's why your race is being replaced. Get over it.

Because they are spics

there aren't enough spics in the world to replace the people of this country

kys

Reggaeton and perreo are neither spanish or culture.

Ferdinand was indeed the worst little shitbthat Spain ever had to suffer.

I believe that if it wasn't for him, or if he had accepted criollos into the government without being an autist we would have a nice catholic hemisphere full of comfy towns

>mexico
And Peru

Simple enough. Masonns hate catholicism and morality so they couldn't tolerate a catholic powerhouse. That is why masons planned from day 1 to destroy the hispanic monarchy,the last force of good,justice and morality on the planet.
First of all masons trained that weird old guy called Miranda,but he sucked so he achieved nothing.
After that masons waited until Napoleon chimped out 2 send 2 monkey like people (San Martin and Bolivar) to cause havoc.
As the monkey like people were total failures,masons had to restore to agent Riego. Riego with his sheer autistic brilliance lost a war on purpose and blamed everything on king Ferdinand. He forced Mexico to proclaim independence after Royalist had stomped independentists and he never send reinforcements against San Martin which would have saved Peru.
After that masons spreaded more monkey like people throughout the continent to create 23 irrelevant shitholes.
There is nothing more to the conflict

Ferdinand did nothing wrong you post masonic brainlet faggots

Anglo trandions and learnings
Same reason England is a powerhouse econmany today and Spain is shit.

>England is a powerhouse econmany

Spic here withsome knowledge. Argentina and chile were first of all separated by the andes mountains so you had that thing going on and to the other big viceroyalty which was lima by "the Alto Peru" which was bolivia. In that time Bolivia and Ecuador were part of Peru. So in 1810 the Argentinians opt for independence because private parties wanted to freely trade with the brits and at the same time Bolivar and San Martin who were educated in france with the ideals of the revolution come back here with the idea to liberate the colonies wich they do. Chile and Argentina are liberated separately (becausethey were separated by the andes as i mentioned) almost at the same time as colombia and venezuela and paraguay. Because PEru was the main spanish hub in south america theres not an internal movement for infdependence so it doesnt happen until san martin and bolivar realise that in order to properly secure the new states from spanish retake they need to get them out of the continent completely so they go for Peru from the north and the south which becomes independent in 1921. In the folowing years bolivar was governing peru and decides to partition it forming ecuador and bolivia because he was a massive fucking faggot. Uruguay gets independence from brazil around that time too and panama is formed in the 1900 because of American jewry. 200 years later you have different identities which have become irreconciliable in some degree with each other.

>small
>weak

Mexico has over 100 million people and the world's 12th largest economy.

What even is the point of these posts? People are discussing actual history yet you still have to come here with your easy /pol/ narrative. It's like you don't even want to learn.

He was totally real, he was a sperglord officer and had to be sent back to the mainland because he wanted to execute some british POWS and islanders.
I can´t find the name or provide a link, sorry.

>What the fuck happened?
Same shit as Slavs i.e. a bunch of people who are the same insisting they're different. Taco Balkans. Talkans.

>Argentina mostly white

>what are Criollos?

and southern mexico, and the highlands of Guatemala

Half of the us and canada is based on old mexico. Mexico was an empire of nation states. However the northern part seceded because of native americans in the south. And in turn tried to fight native americans into reservations as they were being pushed west and the english colonists and new englanders. However the union bought an economic system and a leverage game. Their lands were robbed. Empires are not good due to regionalism. One side will always want to take more.

Well, not Victorian era white, but definitely not as mestizo as the rest of Latin America. I'd say the average middle-class argie would be indistinguishable from the average euro-mediterranean

As a Latin American, I hate people like you.

During the XIXth century, there has been plenty of civil wars in Latin America concerning federalism and centralism. You deny our entire history, our entire agency, and just blame the U.S. for everything.

In my country Dominican Republic the issues relate to the fact the "country" was really 3 nations with one highly centralized government, with each nation constantly fighting to assert dominance in a rugged, ecologically diverse country with a small population density. Because of this constant fighting and the difficulty in enforcing control, revenues were largely lost and it was difficult for capital to build until the 1880s, when the warlords were brought to heel.

>The North

Economy dominated by smallholder tobacco farmers; democratic in tradition; plugged into German, Danish and French Markets; settled by Portuguese, Canarian, French, Spaniards and Mulatto freedmen.

>The South

Oligarchic shithole dominated by an educated class of rancher barons, New Vegas Style. Debt peonage was common and peons were frequently levied like Medieval peasants to fight wars. Capital highly clustered in a small group. No middle classes to speak of. Plugged into British, American and French markets. Contained the capital however.

>The Southwest

Logger barons on the coast and smallholders frequently outside state control. De facto hill tribes formed by maroons and settlers that couldn't be controlled. Plugged into Caribbean markets.

Now usually the south and SW would just ally to keep the north from dominating; if the provinces were decentralized however, like in America then (and a parliament with a toothless president was installed) then the country could generate the wealth needed to build actual state structures.

Because it was only one king and one overseas, also some idiot rejected the proposal of sending one prince on
on each province that would've made a country search for first mexican empire and gran Colombia

Nobody cares about your nigger infested shithole
What are you smoking?

So eurangutans can't do math? How am I not surprised?
Eurangutan extinction is near.

Incas were supeior to those dirty pestilent euchimpeans. History demonstrates it. And you can't literally mention a single point against my superior fact, you subhuman monkey.

You cared enough to shitpost a comment.

We can't even keep Mexico ducttaped together and you want a huge state formed from a billion and a half of clashing individuals. My city of three million people has recently been given a issue that half of the city wants to be recognized as a new municipal entity, good fucking luck uniting just my state alone.

Criminally underrated