How much social mobility was there in medieval Europe, and how did the existence of chartered cities fit in with feudal society?
How much social mobility was there in medieval Europe...
Jack Powell
Henry Wood
Some, but not a lot. Peasants would occasionally marry people from low-level nobility (knightly class), but never something like a prince or duke. Commoners in the cities could acquire wealth/status through economic means, but this is more of a high/late medieval development than an early medieval one. Opportunities to save and invest generally got better through the years.
John Miller
Thanks. Are there any good books about city life in medieval times?
Michael Robinson
There was as much social mobility as there is currently. Source: The Son Also Rises
Elijah King
Really depends on the place, and the time, the medieval is a 1000 years and Europe is cultural pretty diverse.
Also, social mobility worked a lot different than it does today. Please keep in mind that medieval society and mindset was radically different.
A medieval city had something like a caste system in place. The biggest divide in a city was between honest folks and dishonest ones. The status of honest/dishonest was inherited from the parents but also could be lost/gained due to own actions.
As a honest man you could learn a honest trade, become a master smith or carpenter or mason or merchant or whatever. You can vote and are eligible to fight in the towns militia You could become rich, make a political career, become councilman or lead an army into battle. Also, your word counts for something, be it in trade or court.
As a dishonest man you can learn no honest trade, you get flayer, undertaker, treadmill guy, sewage shoveler or dog catcher. You sure as hell can't vote and you live in the designated ghetto, also, you are not allowed to visit public places reserved for honest people, and no honest person will accept you under their roof save for emptying the latrine.
Now there is examples of simple smiths or millers that turned their families into dynasties that became filthy rich and powerful.
On the other hand you had to pull some serious hero business to make it back from dishonest to honest.
Caleb Fisher
I got half a dozen books here about everyday medieval city living, unfortunately most of them are in German.
Jose Peterson
In those days, social mobility was achieved almost entirely by "marrying up." You have to somehow convince/trick/seduce a person of higher birth into marrying you, as task frustrated by the fact that most marriages tended to be pre-arranged by the parents.
Aaron Phillips
>Are there any good books about city life in medieval times?
Thomas Smith
>In those days, social mobility was achieved almost entirely by "marrying up."
Simply not true for the medieval cities. They had some meritocracy in place.
Anthony Collins
>Peasants
are not Burgers friend.
Luke Kelly
I think the idea of marrying into the knightly class could better be described as taken or raped into the knightly class, then again, it's a possibility, a source would be stellar user =]
Lucas Howard
Social mobility never existed and still doesn't exist, it's a spook.
Jack Robinson
William the Conquerer's (a.k.a. the Bastard) mom was a tanners daughter. en.wikipedia.org
Also, social mobility and personal freedom was much higher in the Cities, thats why they kept citizenship as a high privilege.
John Hall
I was about to disagree with you but then I realize social mobility in modern times is shit too.
Jack Kelly
Interesting thread.
Henry Martinez
then contribute something faggot
Zachary Turner
If you're a serf and made it into the city and stayed there for a year, you could be freed from serfdom.
Stadtluft macht frei
Leo Johnson
People didn't give a shit if you were a faggot in medieval times.
Angel Parker
Except sodomites got burned alive for sins against nature, faggot.
>Straff der vnkeusch, so wider die natur beschicht
>Item so eyn mensch mit eymem vihe,mannmit mann,weibmit weib,vnkeusch treiben,die haben auch das leben verwürckt,vmd man sollsie der gemeymen gewomheyt mach mit dem fewer vom leben zum todt richten.
Austin Clark
Didn't it depend a lot where you were?
I imagine the free cities had more lax social rules on stuff like this.
Andrew Cruz
>William the Conquerer's (a.k.a. the Bastard) mom was a tanners daughter. en.wikipedia.org
This isn't really an example he was asking for - Herleva later married a lesser noble because there was too much of a gap between herself and William's father Robert (hence while William was illegitimate.)
Joshua Perez
Depends on where you live desu.
Brayden Thomas
>and how did the existence of chartered cities
They didn't. This is why citizens and peasants literally have different rights. A citizen of a chartered city is a free person. A peasant owed someone. Hence the German saying "city air makes one free."
In large medieval states chartered cities were like a state within a state. They were represented not by a feudal lord, but by a mayor or burgomeister who is elected from the city council.
Even their military contributions were different: feudal domains contained their masters who were professional military men: the lords, their knights, and men at arms. Meanwhile in chartered cities it is often a requirement for citizens to present themselves for militia training and server for a period of time within the militia. During wartime, their militias join the state's army alongside their feudal conterparts.
Grayson Jackson
Yes, after her hubby died. She was mom of a King, a Duke and a Bishop. She is the perfect example of social mobility by marriage.
Brayden Anderson
If you were a woman you could have a noble bastard (being a mistress of a noble gave you a better life than a peasant), they could maybe marry a lesser noble if they were very, very lucky
Peasant men never married noble women, their family would never allow it. They had to gain mobility by being merchants usually
Charles Phillips
Owen Tudor wasn't technically a peasant but he was a low ranking Welshman with very dubious origins, he eventually married Catherine of Valois (he was essentially her bodyguard)
Joseph Perez
Marrying rich widows was a sport back then.
this guy gets it!