So.. what caused it, Veeky Forums?

jokes being good or not aren't dependent on you getting them

yeah, theyre dependent on how funny you are
youre not funny

>youre not funny
i didn't make the joke you dumb shit

Northerners thought that slavery allowed slave owners to dominate state legislatures, and regarded Westward expansion of slavery into Mexican territories conquered in 1846 as a sure way to hand control of the whole country to slave owners.
The elite in the North didn't like the disproportionate share in government held by planters, and wanted more power for themselves.

Southroners regarded the steady growth of Federal institutions as a progressive erosion of the United States as they had been originally intended, and regarded it as a growth of tyranny and insult to their patriotic feelings, which more often than not were attached to their home states and not the federation.
Certain upper class intellectuals - many of them slavers - among them regarded the Northern industrialised way of life as degraded, and unfit for white people to live under, on the basis of a critique that borrowed from European socialism in the furthest fringes.
Slavery was the underpinning of the elite in the South, and they refused to see their base of power over their states reduced this sharply by emancipation.

Either way, the Eternal Weevil was coming to feast on their tow. If the South had won, they'd either be crushed by the armies of the W.O.P (Weevil Occupied Plantation) or turned Burgundy, which is to say a brownish shade of Red.

I forgot the Abolitionists, but they are sort of played out, don't you think? Fallout 4 made me want to shit on John Brown's ass.

That said, the pseudo-War in Kansas probably brought the Civil War forward a good bit, since blood was being shed in the name of abolition and slavery, towns were sacked, Slenderman Brown was bopping about cutting off heads and so on.

The southerners were mad about Abe Lincoln and saw the death of slavery in sight so they decided that America can get fucked and thought they stood a chance if a fight broke out

If your neighbor shot at your house for 2 days, would you say he did nothing wrong as long as you weren't killed?

>neighbor shooting at my house
fort sumter is in confederate lands. it was illegal for lincoln to have kept it under union control, plus he mobilized tens of thousands of troops over something this stupid, he was waiting for the opportunity to start "the war of northern aggression"
a better situation would be if i bought a large estate and the previous owner locked himself away in a treehouse in my land, then while im yelling at him to get down and throwing rocks he throws a pipe bomb at me

>civil war was about slavery
lolno

>Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.

What did he mean by this?

who is he?

No. It was on AMERICAN lands.

Alexander Stephens, Confederate Vice President.

>every single state lists slavery as the primary reason for leaving the union
>the civil war wasn't about slavery
really affixes my bayonet

It was about preserving the union, but slavery was the root cause that led to secession. I don't get why these threads keep popping up.

that's like quoting Pence to represent the entire country along with the president. white farmers arent going to fight a war just to let the rich keep slaves you fucking idiot
keep watching your PragerU videos faggot

>SC secedes
>SC is still part of US
lolno

a union which fell apart due to a massive chimpout over election results from slave states

it tried to take a fort when it seceded, that's federal property and stealing it is a violation of the NAP

Loser detected. How does it feel knowing your ancestors LOST? White supremacy lost in 1865 and 1945.

it tried to take it a while AFTER it seceded, as well as after many warnings and diplomatic attempts with lincoln, who didnt even want to call the CSA a country.

my ancestors are south american, not southern american

As the Unionists pushed harder on the slavery issue, the Abolitionist rhetoric necessitated the Southroners begin to justify slavery as a moral good rather than just a 'peculiar institution' which was a necessary evil, or an issue of property rights.

The idea that hundreds of thousands of Southroners died for the sole purpose of defending the property of the planters is simply wrong, and I highly doubt that, had things gone differently, the hundreds of thousands of demobbed veterans would just saunter back into backwoods poverty in a wrecked country.

As I said in my totally ignored post which was the longest ITT and covered more issues than any of you have.

But it wasn't slavery as slavery, it was slavery as it pertained to state's rights.
Wasn't a sudden decision on the part of the Northerners to get this enthusiastic about it, although there were lots of 'radicals' against the practice.

Consider that a lot of Northerners didn't care so much about slavery as the power it gave to the slave owner in the state governments.
If not for the Mexican war, then I highly doubt it would have been so contentious an issue.

It doesn't matter what the white farmers thought. Secession and the formation of the CSA was done by and for the elite planting class, who explicitly stated their motivations (preservation of slavery and white supremacy) many times in documents and speeches.

PragerU is right-wing garbage, why would I watch any of their videos?

>Consummately left wing
>most probably a socialist
>'subjective consciousness of the labouring classes doesn't matter, its all about elite maneuvers and backroom politics!'

Really starves my kulaks.

I'm not a communist either. It's true that the rank-and-file fought for different reasons (vague notions of "honor" or "defending your home"); that simply means they were duped into fighting a rich man's war. Said rich men, people like Alexander Stephens, made their motivations for the war very explicit.

>done by the elite
>secession was extremely popular among the southerners
>doesnt matter what farmers thought
>farmers were most of the population
use your head

>they were duped into fighting a rich man's war

Same for the Northerners. They fought so that an industrial rather than agricultural elite could fuck them silly.

>vague notion of honour and defending their homes

For the Southroners, it wasn't a 'vague' notion at all, it was far more concrete than what most of the Northerners were fighting for.
General Lee fought so that Virginia wouldn't be made a battlefield, was he not rich enough to count?

Please tell me who Stephens gave that speech to before you use it to smear everyone who fought for the South as a duped bumpkin.
And tell me, who among the dupes burned whose homes? Who was being attacked and who was defending themselves?

You're absolutely right that on a macro level it was a rich man's war, I will add on both sides, but we don't live on that scale unless we ourselves are monstrously rich.

FUCKS SAKE
these were the causes of the civil war:
SS Central America sinking
uneven population in north and south
Morrill Tariff
Lincoln
states' rights

dubs dont lie, fuck off yankeefags

Fort was on land SC sold to the federal government.

Try again.

>muh industrial capitalists are as bad as plantation owners who literally had human beings as property

Fuck off.

>And tell me, who among the dupes burned whose homes? Who was being attacked and who was defending themselves?

Well why was it necessary for the Union to invade eleven of its states? Why did those state governments choose to leave the United States and form a new country? Maybe you should look at the Confederate Constitution or the state documents of secession.

By the way, it's very dishonest to imply that all ordinary Confederates supported the cause. Leaving aside the four million who were held as property, there were many Unionists in the South, with the common thread among them that they lived in Appalachia/the Ozarks and did not own slaves. Also note that Sherman's army *grew* as it marched to the ocean.

I suppose Chiang Kai Shek ought to have respected the colonial concessions then?
After all, the Qing sold the land to the Brits, French and so on.

Please don't talk to me about unfairness, its a contract and should be honoured. Shanghai is British clay.

...which they seceded from
i dont know where youre getting that information from, fort was supposed to be under confederate control after secession.
>everything under northern control should stay under northern control, i dont know what secession is

>secession was extremely popular among the southerners
But was it really? A big chunk of Virginia which was mostly composed of poor white farmers and miners literally seceded and joined the Union as a new state. Virginia itself wanted to keep slavery, but also strongly wanted to stay in the Union and originally voted against secession, which they overruled later after discovering Lincoln would eventually abolish slavery. Kentuckians weren't very keen on keeping slavery and were more pro-Union than pro-CSA but their opinion wasn't really accounted for since both Union and Confederacy treated them like useless peasants and doormats. Missourians joined the Union in far greater numbers than they joined the Confederate ranks. Really, it was mostly the Deep Southern, nigger-infested shitholes like South Carolina, Louisiana and Georgia where secession was overwhelmingly popular since their entire economies relied on the presence of nigger slaves.

>b-but not in ALL states!
VA went confederate anyway, along with Lee. the war wasnt just about slavery and the elites
i dont give a fuck if a state like KY didnt join, it didnt join, the ones who DID join did so with the support of the people

God, imagine if the Union had gone all the way with Radical Reconstruction--executing every commissioned officer and Confederate politician, implementing land reform (mass confiscation of plantations and redistribution to freedmen), and actually enforcing the 14th and 15th amendments. Forrest wouldn't be alive to start the Ku Klux Klan, white Southern children wouldn't be fed lies about a noble Lost Cause, and Jim Crow would be averted entirely.

Virginia originally voted AGAINST the secession. I'm not sure why so many people forget about it.
>i dont give a fuck if a state like KY didnt join
Because you're some inbred quadroon retard from the snake infested swamps of Alabama completely oblivious to the fact the Upland South wasn't really that much on board with your nigger escapade.

no, the civil war would have expanded into a world war, britain and france wouldnt like that kind of behavior. honestly, 99% of northerfags and slavesstartedit tards dont know what the hell theyre talking about

If Britain and France were ever going to intervene they would have done it while the Confederacy had a chance of winning, not during Reconstruction.

>upland south
im talking about the actual south, KY wasnt a confederate state, the ones who were were supported by the inhabitants
in the end VA joined the CSA anyway, so what they originally wanted doesnt matter, Hitler was ORIGINALLY just gonna reunite germany

>General Lee fought so that Virginia wouldn't be made a battlefield, was he not rich enough to count?

But then it did because of his actions?

>if the union had gone along with radical reconstruction
did you read even your own post???

>only CSA states are the real south xDD
Kill yourself.

>Britain and France giving enough of a fuck to start a war across the Atlantic ocean against a battle hardened and experienced nation which had little to give them.
>Instead of continuing to focus on fucking over everyone else through imperialism.

ad hominem nigger
KY isnt dixie. dixie is the south

it was a meme

>Fuck off.

Oooh, so decisive! You go, queen! Slaaaaaay!
I'm sure that the average Northern soldier was soooooooo passionate about industry, and was painfully eager to get back to his shitstained slum and mutant family.
That's why they didn't have to sell the invasion as a moral crusade, because hundreds of thousands of men would practically dance their way into the grave for the sake of a squabble among propertied men.

>Well why was it necessary for the Union to invade eleven of its states?

It wasn't, because the states - shock - were not the property of the Federal government. I thought owning people was wrong?
They chose invade to impose their authority.

>By the way, it's very dishonest to imply that all ordinary Confederates supported the cause.

Even moreso to throw that out there to insinuate that the CSA was forcing people to support it.
The majority clearly did, otherwise it would not have been so bloody, contentious and embittering.

>Leaving aside the four million who were held as property

They were property. Born property, lived as property, and didn't do a fucking thing to change that, a fact that has born a compensatory anecdote for each slave who didn't rebel and rightly kill their owner, even as the South was burning.
Millions of them ended up on the same plantations after the war as serfs rather than slaves.

I'm sure it was supposed to be the figurative sort of forty acres and a mule, right? Couldn't be that pious Northern people cared more about Ulysses' drinking problem than four million ex-slaves, right?

>the common thread among them that they lived in Appalachia/the Ozarks and did not own slaves.

Two of the least populous and productive areas of the South.

>Also note that Sherman's army *grew* as it marched to the ocean.

And? You act as though massacre and counter-massacre never happens. When one side loses territory, everyone who was not sincerely on board takes the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon.

They half-assed it. All of the elites got off scot-free and were able to take back the South through a campaign of violent terror.

KY, WV, TN and MO are the real South, because they have been populated by quintessential southern people - Scots-Irish, Scottish and Anglo-Saxon descendants. Unlike Dixie which was mostly populated by niggers.

The war was caused by the secession, the secession was caused by the south being butthurt about losing an election(despite it being a fair democratic election) and being afraid the north was gonna take their slaves from them(despite the fact Lincoln explicitly said he wasn't), you can literally read it in their declarations of secession.

you literally have no idea what youre talking about, go back to /leftypol/ to talk about how the elites do everything, faggot

>a country suppressing an armed rebellion is the same as chattel slavery

Also, Sherman's land redistribution was only overturned by Andrew Johnson, a S*utherner.

check the jpeg

Despite, you must mean. It would have been a battlefield either way, you know.

Nathan Bedford Forrest was a Confederate general (i.e. engaged in treason against the United States), was not punished, and was able to organize a guerrilla army which succeeded in terrorizing Northerners and freedmen and achieved its goal of instating the old political class of the South back in power after 1876, which also meant that blacks were reduced to second-class citizens. Do I have to spell it out more?

Reconstruction occurred after the confederates had lost the war, if Britain or France were going to intervene they would have done it earlier

Florida is a shithole and carpetbagger central. The area from the panhandle to Gainesville is the only one that's even remotely southern, Tampa and Orlando areas are nothing but northern transplants while southern Florida is Cuba 2.0. I'm willing to bet your grandparents didn't even live in the South.

'A state has the right of life or death over you if you refuse its authority.'
Generalised slavery.

>a country

A federation, you mean. Not a unitary state.
See the problem?

>armed rebellion

Voluntary secession from a voluntary union.

>is the same as chattel slavery

Drink piss, you. Shoehorning 'chattel' on there makes it no better or worse, people say this to make other forms of slavery sound better and the Southron form seem like ultimate evil, which they were not and it was not.

>half-assed it

Whoopsie daisie! I accidentally my rival's entire economy on a purportedly moral basis, and when they surrendered and accepted my hegemony, I let them off without any punishment whatsoever! Silly old me!

W-what? I-insincere?! FUCKING TREASONOUS REBELLIOUS DIVISIVE EEWEEWEEWEEWEE!

So a Southroner was president less than a decade after the war ended, and you suppose this isn't an indication that the Union was less sincere than you might think? Or was Johnson given a god-vote that allowed him to make himself president by an electorate of one?

Maybe they talked a lot about rights and abolition, formally carried it through, and when they could reasonably say 'job done' they went back to business?

Just for the purposes of transparency: Are you an ancap?

>Shoehorning 'chattel' on there makes it no better or worse
This. I constantly see this argument from nigger lover
>well yeah other people have been enslaved but it wasn't CHATTEL slavery so it's no big deal, now pay reparashuns

>voluntary union
>psyche you can't leave anymore
You realize we used to say "the United States are" rather than "the United States is"?

Well, yes. The Union was in the right in the relative sense but, contrary to the wishes of Radical Republicans, didn't go far enough in putting their money where their mouth was. We'd be in a much better place if the planting/political/military classes had been liquidated and the 14th and 15th amendments been properly enforced past 1876.

>fort sumter is in confederate lands
It literally never was Confederate, since the adjacent CSA State (South Carolina) never owned it, at no point of history. They asked the federal government several times to hand it over but it was refused each time.

>ask neighbor to give me his car
>he says no
>ok I'm at liberty to blow his car up now

>He isn't an ancap

Good, its a silly idea and Triple H is as bad a theorist as he is fine a heel.

A slave is a slave, an escaped slave is an oxymoron. If you let yourself be a slave, you are a slave.
Not a 'person held as property', not an 'imprisoned person', a fucking slave, and you'll be free when faggot massah tells you so.

...

Doesnt matter anyway. Theres no such thing as "confederate lands". Theres land administered by the legitimate government and land that was being occupied by rebels

It was just for the sake of argument - even if we recognized the secession as legal, then South Carolina would have been allowed to secede with posessions that belonged to the state of South Carolina. Not with federal posessions.

Fair point. They had literally no justified argument for claiming Fort Sumter

>white supremacy lost
No, the enslavement of other human beings lost. Northerners at the time had as great an anti-black sentiment as their peers in the south. the vast majority of northern whites disliked blacks migrating to their states.

>Northerners were not white supremacists
Tip top kek

>Appalachians fought for the UNION GUYZ!
I would love to see any stats that back up the notion that a significant portion of southern mountain men fought against the south, because in my experience that's completely false.

What is West Virginia? Eastern Tennessee also made a serious attempt to secede.

>t. I visited Florida this one time on vacation

>in my experience that's completely false
>my experience
Didn't know you served in the Civil War or talked to the veterans you fag.

Florida is such a shithole it's not even worth vacationing in.

No but my family tree certainly speaks volumes.

>fought against the south
They were the South and they fought against CSA. Stop treating the South and Confederacy as synonyms you Dixie mudblood ape.

Which state? Eastern KY here.

So you've never been to Florida, yet you claim that nothing south of Gainesville is southern? Let me fill you in my friend. The big three counties of south Florida, the area that Orlando occupies, the area Tampa occupies, Duval county (aka nigger central), and Tallahassee area all have a large population that range from fresh outta Quebec to inbred welfare nigger on the political scale. The other portion of the state is Florida crackers, rednecks, farmers, and methheads.

Nothing was supposed to be under Confederate control. Secession was a legally meaningless joke, and the Confederacy was an illegal confederation the States were specifically barred from creating. The argument that there's nothing in the Constitution barring secession is fraudulent, and easily dismissed with the Supremacy clause of the Constitution, and the argument that if they won that wouldn't matter holds no weight because they got the shit beaten out of them, and rightfully so.

tl;dr The South was wrong, their actions were illegal, they lost their war, and Sherman did nothing wrong, burn in hell Southaboos.

My family has made its way elsewhere but my grandmother and all her family is from Corbin, Kentucky. During the civil war, They were all from Lee county, VA.

Anglo-Saxon/Norman-Cavalier ethnic hostility. Only true answer.

You know exactly what I'm referring to and its been used synonymously with the CSA by more accomplished people than anyone who has posted on this board. Stop being so autistic.
>Mud blood ape
I'm painfully white, user.

...

>voting red makes you a southerner
Oh right, I forgot, being southern has nothing to do with your ancestry, ethnic background, history and culture, it's all about who you vote for. I guess Michigan and Ohio are both southern now, and Pennsylvania too.

No, the CSA = The South meme was started by Dixie cretins who feel like they're at liberty to monopolize the entire South for themselves. The ethnogenesis of the American southerners began in what is now Virginia, West Virginia, Tennessee and Kentucky, not in Dixie. What really gets a good laugh out of me is when some half-French half-nigger swamp trash from Louisiana claims to be a more authentic southerner than the uplanders, which is just pure comedy.

I'm giving you a broad idea of the liberal areas of Florida, which happen to coincide with the major metropolitan areas where most Northern and Californian blue state refugees come settle. If you paid attention I mentioned Duval as being increasingly glutted with libs as well, which isn't represented as blue on that map. Go ahead and google the other counties if you don't believe me.

Forgot to add North Carolina.