How pre-indo-europeans in Scandinavia looked like?

Pre-Indo-European Scandinavia was G2 country and they looked like Sardinians.

It has two distinct cultures there who interbred less than Swedes and Somalis do.

So how it happed, that Finns are fair skinned and often fair haired?

Because Finns are Iron Age Estonians who crossed the bay and raped some Saamis.

Karelians didn't come from Estonia though.

Yes they did, originally. Karelians split off from Finns near the coast of the Gulf of Finland. That's why it's almost the same language and even closer than Estonian.

Nah, that's complete nonsense.
We Karelians are Vepsä folk whose language was gradually patched to be more or fully Finnish but our genetics are the same as our Vepsä brothers.

Anyway, at the end of the day Estonia isn't the Finnic homeland but just one place where the locals were unusually receptive towards Volga Finnic dicking.

Lol, even that plot shows Karelians and Veps are just a confused Finnish offshoot (and ultimately an Estonian offshoot pulling towards Saamis, not Volga).

The Volga isn't genetically the same as it was 3000 years ago when Big Volga Bulls discovered Estonia and Estonian women who were dying to learn a cool language and give birth to Finnic babies.

...

So whose invention are blue eyes, and blond hair? Uralic people's?

Guys but the if a protoeuropean like a Sardinian knocks up a Nordic girl do them give birth to a modern European?

Even if it isn't, it won't make a difference since Karelians descend from Estonia rather than directly from Volga.

The genes have been found in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers, and living people who have inherited those genes bred for them because it looks good.

This is autism, what the fuck does this even mean?

Both Sardinians and Scandinavians already look like modern Europeans

IMO it went the other way around.
Volga Bulls similar to Veps are the reason why Estonians are pulling towards them on the PCA.

The cucked Indo-Europeans of Estonia are of course your primary ancestors.

Nope.

Vepsians are distinctly Estonian+Saami genetically too, recent immigrants from the Gulf of Finland region, and the oldest branches of Finnic are spoken in Estonia.

So stone age northern Europeans already looked "nordic"?

wat
Finngols got there soon after the ice receded far enough, way before brpnze age.

Proto-Finnic people were a mixture of Siberian(haplogroup N) invaders and various Indo-European cultures, mainly from the Volga but also the Baltic and Scandinavia in our case.

Fantasies about Lithuanian-like Proto-Baltic-Finnic people are amusing but very out of touch with the racial reality.

Let's keep in mind that Finns, Vepsä and Karelians all have Indo-European maternal lines.
Saami don't, they have mainly Paleo-European related maternal lines.
I guess Estonians colonized Karelia and Vepsäland with their women.

Only some of them, since that was before the long period of selection modern ones went through.

. Estonia has plenty of N and R1a to colonize Vepsia (former Saami territory). Even Lithuania would. The genetic and linguistic reality is that the ancestors of Finnic people came from Volga to Estonia through Tver and Moscow regions and expanded from there, while Karela and Vepsaland are old Saami lands. Vepsians as a people are no older than 1500 years, even their language demonstrates this.

>In particular, the onomastic evidence (e.g. Saarikivi 2007a; Teush 2007) shows that Finnic spoken in North western Russia was subject to all the Common Finnic phonological developments and that it also shared many of the same Germanic loanwords as the other Finnic languages. Finnic must therefore have arrived there from the Gulf of Finland region, east of which there seems to have been no Germanic presence until the eighth century AD (see e.g. Carpelan 2006: 88–89)

Saamis maternal lines are not Paleo-European, they are bottlenecked and have eastern lineages Z1 and D too. The same ones found in Sweden, Finland and so on

>Even Lithuania would.

Lithuanian N1c VL29 L-550 belongs to Baltic-Finnic group that expanded over Corded Ware R1a.
Estonians also have VL-29 for the most part, not the Z1934 of Karelians.

yfull.com/tree/N-Z1934/

This line probably wasn't among the ones that conquered Estonia.

Lithuanians are not N1c people despite having N1c, it's just a testament of the local Indo-Europeans being inept little cucks compared to for the example the ones that conquered India.

Loan words don't equal genetic admixture. It just means that people from one edge of the newly conquered Baltic-Finnic realm were in tight contact with the others.

The Finns did, though.
Karelians and Veps split off at the Neva, the Finns came by boats, later.

Haplogroups are irrelevant to overall ancestry. Estonians and Finns have some East Asian/Siberian drift which doesn't show up in Lithuanians.

See Genetic History of Northern Europe.

>The statistic D(Lithuanian, Baltic_BA; X,
Mbuti) reveals significant positive results for many modern Near Eastern and
Southern European populations which can be caused by Lithuanians having received
more genetic input from populations with higher farmer ancestry after the Bronze Age
(Supplementary Information Table S8). As this applies to nearly all modern
populations besides Estonians, especially for Central and Western Europe, limited
gene-flow from more south-western neighbouring regions is sufficient to explain this
pattern.

>In contrast, the statistic D(Estonian, BA_Baltic; X, Mbuti) gives the most significant
positive hits for East Asian and Siberian populations (Supplementary Information
Table S8) as previously suggested2
.

Basically bronze age Lithuanians lack farmer ancestry that they now have and Estonians also lack farmer ancestry though a bit less and some East Asian/Siberian component which was probably brought by those Finnic speakers.

Z1934 in Karelians and Finns is either from Estonians, who do have highest N diversity in the Baltic (Karelians have the lowest) and expanded through a founder effect or it's a cucked Saami lineage that expanded through a founder effect given how northern Sweden has more archaic variants of it than Karelia.

There never was a Baltic-Finnic realm, a bunch of tribes in forests were never in tight contact with each other once spread out, and the loanwords are there because they came with the original Finnic migration, as the PCA shows too

Proofs?

Z1934 age east of Estonia(Vologda, Arkangel etc) predates the arrival of Baltic-Finnic to Estonia and SW Finland which has been dated through Germanic loanwords and archaeological work by Valter Lang to ~800-700 BC.

Most Z1934 in Estonia is probably related to migrants from Finland, whether there was any among the original invaders is irrelevant since the diversity didn't magically spread east while VL29 which makes up 90% of Estonian N1c didn't.

The PCA only shows that Finns and Saami have more Siberian admixture, possibly from the same source. The difference is mainly in that Finnic people mixed with Indo-Europeans while the Proto-Saami mixed with older paleo groups that still existed in the region, who may or may not have had some Siberian admixture prior to their arrival.
Later on, Finnic people gave the Saami some modern Indo-European genetics.

Estonians being dilluted Finnic people obviously sit at the root of the genetic cline near Lithuanians.

Trying to wish away haplogroup N1c and it's role as a propagator of Siberian admixture in Europe will never work.

Karelian and East Finnish Z1934 is more closely related to North Swedish (Saami) Z1934 than to Vologda & Archangelsk branches. It's obviously from Saamis more likely than some Finnics. Valter Lang, like historical linguists, places South Estonian language as the oldest split of Proto-Finnic. Forget your dream of originality of Karelians.

That PCA shows that the only diluted Finnic people are the Finns/Karelians/Vepsians (by Saamis towards which they pull to). The original Finnic split was in Estonia, and not spoken by Karelian-like people but Estonian-like people. If they were different from the old Volga people, that's because of Corded Ware admixture picked around Tver and Moscow regions.

> that's because of Corded Ware admixture picked around Tver and Moscow regions.

Probably this.

No it's actually more related to whatever the fuck RU-VLA and RU-KGN are by a thousand years.

Saami don't exclusively have Z1934 by the way but in combination with VL29, I1, R1a etc.

You can keep trying to deny that the N1c Siberian blood was dilluted to Lithuanian levels but it's still only a fantasy with no proof.

And keep in mind that no N1c was found in Baltics going up as early as 200AD. By the time Finnics showed up around Baltic they we're nothing like those Proto-Finnic/Uralic speakers that spread from the east autosomal wise.

Until 200 BC and the samples were from Lithuania.
Since Gediminid kings had N1c, it would seem that it became common because the noblemen and kings had it while the commoners had R1a.
Just a theory though but doesn't matter, Lithuanian subclade is still originally Finnic.

There are also plenty of samples from Latvia going to 400BC still they were overwhelmingly R1a.

Kivutkalns was Bronze-age metal working centre in that region and certainly those times craftsmen weren't simple plebians, there were many theories before that study that Kivutkalns will be N1c and that Finnics introduced metal working there and etc.

You're denying the autosomal evidence and you can't read the tree. The upstream relatives of the Vla and KGN are in Finland, and further back North Sweden, so the RU-VLA and RU-KGN guys' ancestors came from there. And obviously haplogroups place no restrictions on autosomal ancestry since Lithuanians indeed are heavily N1c.

Maybe, but they showed up there before they did in Karelia. Valter Lang, who you quoted, says as much. The guys he places on the Volga-Karelia route are the Saamis.

I am a different guy, not the gut who quoted Lang

No, they didn't come from Northern Sweden since nobody comes from there. It's not even Saami territory 3000 years ago but Paleo-European. Saami homeland is in SW Finland circa 200 BC.

They are just old lines which moved there with the Kvens or Saami, who have Finnic admixture.

VL29 also has a basal subclade in Karelia, is that Saami too? I'd say yes.

/balt/

The Vla and KGN guys on the other hand are young lines who moved from Finland or NS to Russia since their upstream ancestors are solidly from there. Karelian "basal VL29" is actually CTS3451 bottlenecked

>The N1c might be spread by Latvians themselves to

How about no?
L550 is from the North Baltic area.
Oldest branches are found in Sweden, Finland and Estonia, not Latvia, Lithuania and Moscow.

There's a thousand year gap between it and other VL29 so we don't know where it was during that time but I would guess somewhere within a few hundred kilometers from the Rybinsk reservoir.

I think it is most associated with WHG (Western Hunter Gatherer), Haplogroup G which is associated with EEF (Early European Farmer) is also in Europe.

There's 500 BC or older L550's and even better L1025's around Kursk and Poland too, so it had of time to make it into East Balts before they came to Latvia which may date to late Roman period, even if the pre-L1025 came from Estonia.

Balts themselves seem prefer the idea that it went to Sweden first and became Germanized.

Central Sweden has a comparatively high rate and diversity of L550 so there's no logical reason it couldn't be true, but we'll see.