Determinism

Except its not remotely irrefutable.

The very notion of causality is extremely suspect. The only evidence to any kind of logical link between events in the past and events in the future is the empirical fact of constant repetition. When two things appear together often enough we say that the former caused the latter, but there is no logical reason this has to be so, there is no inherent link between the concepts.

Every second of torture, preplanned

Every act of senseless violence is actually part of a grand scheme

Every rape and murder ordained on high

If predeterminism is real, then god is not just, merciful or loving

>when it is irrefutably logical that everything is already determined from the first moment of the big bang, and my percieved free will is just an illusion caused by the innate narrow scope of human perception?
So?

Even if the universe isn't causal, free will still has no logical basis. It's very difficult to explain how free will arises in humans without being vague or saying "God gave it to us."

We have free will, just not complete free will. You can will just about anything in your mind. Nothing from outside can alter your will.

The reason people think we don't have free will is because there are rules in this universe that you must obey. You can go against them but most people don't because we are conditioned since birth.

English Standard Version
Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Think of a city. Any city. Did you pick one?
You probably only thought of a few cities, and then picked one that felt right. What about all the other cities that you know of, say, Beijing, but did not even remotely conceive? Where is the freedom in that?
Alright, now think of something you absolutely love. Food, person, God, whatever. And in an instant, try to turn your love into absolute hatred for that object. Can't do it? Ok, here's another test.
Try to go 20 seconds without thinking. 30 seconds...1 hour...1 day...
You can't even do 20. You see, you do not make decisions, you just witness the decisions your brain makes. All actions are the perceived path of greatest pleasure, pleasure is based on desire, desire is chemical and therefore follows physics, therefore your actions are as causal as explosives. How can the self be free from the world, when the world composed the self?

>How to go on living when it is irrefutably logical that everything is already determined from the first moment of the big bang, and my percieved free will is just an illusion caused by the innate narrow scope of human perception?

but it isn't

The fact that we're all going to die no matter what means it's not really worth worrying about as you can't do anything about it.

I simply act upon the hypothesis. That it's impossible to know things for sure and calculate risks. The problem with Idealists is that they are sure they are right. Which causes entitlement, nihilism.

The fact that you are limited does in no way negate the fact that you are making a choice.

If I tell you to take a pen and write either the number 1 or 2 on your forehead, the conceivable outcome is incredibly limited, yet you still are willfully impacting the direction of your reality.

I'm still curious how you think free will arises. Could you explain the specific mechanism? You will surely have to base your mechanism on supernatural phenomena, because the natural world is either causal or random, with no room for free will. You say that free will is limited. This is based on the fact that our genetics and experiences do shape our behavior. But what reason do we have to suggest that the 1% of our free will exists? Where does this autonomy originate? Whether or not you're right, you have a difficult position to defend when I can just say that we are determined and that we only have the illusion of free will because of our lack of knowledge about our own brain's decision making.

I understand what you are pointing out but I can point out the opposite direction using the same logic.

Think of a persons decision to buy a dog. What kind of dog will it be? Will it be a small, medium, or large breed? Will it be a breed that sheds and digs? Do you want to buy a puppy and train it into adult hood? Do you want to rescue a strange mut from the highway?

With all the choices in acquiring a pet, you are limited, but you can research what others know to make a better decision. Once you decide that you want to care for a dog, either by choice or maybe you felt obligated to rescue a stray, you are now bound by your own responsibility for it's fate. This is not new, it has been this way since the beginning.

You grow up and decide to be responsible. Or not. You have free will.

It's not an illusion. Even if your decisions are determined, your mind is still what's determining them. Why that would discourage you, I don't know.

From our Creator.

You godless people have no answers for anything. Doesn't that bother you?

aaaand how couldn't that have happened in a deterministic universe? You seem to think that decisions are choices. Think about the infinite actions you "could" do right now. You could stop reading, you could scream, you could stab yourself, move 3 inches to the right,etc. But for this to be possible, your brain must allow your electrical signals to have an infinite number of paths. You would essentially be breaking the laws of physics, since given a certain chemical condition of the brain, you are somehow able to change the path expected of the chemicals. It's actually impossible for you to stab yourself right now, because you have no good reason to. Maybe you want to prove me wrong, but you know that it's not worth injuring yourself. All decisions are the same way. Sometimes we have conscious reasons and sometimes we don't know all the factors that lead to our decisions. You don't have to think about most of your actions throughout the day, such as how fast you walk and where to move your eyes and such, like an autopilot. Think about a psychopathic murderer. It's easy to say a man shot up a school because he has aspergers or whatever mental disease. It was outside of his control, yet he still wanted to do it. Your brain is the same as his; you just have a different set of desires, some more or less extreme than his, which converge into one decision that, while you agree with it, was inevitable and therefore outside of your control. A man can do as he wills, but he can not will what he wills.

Ha>Bringing God in only makes it worse, considering his omniscience and sovereignty. Read Romans 9.

>Doesn't that bother you?
What have I not answered, exactly? Are you referring to the beginning of the universe? If so, I don't care how it originated. I'm content with not knowing everything, but I also would like to learn as much as possible.

Just do what makes you happy because it sure goes by quick.

Sure you can be driven by impulses all day long, or you could read how to make better decisions. The better choices in life are obvious and drive society. The more adept you are at making better choices for yourself then the more power you can be given to make choices for others.

Basically to have more free will try running simulations in your mind based on what you know. If the simulation doesn't work then you probably need more information.

Go ahead and tell me how Romans 9 impinges upon your free will ability to choose from among your available options.

I'll wait.

>If so, I don't care how it originated.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Your comfort with ignorance.

ORIGIN
PURPOSE
MEANING
MORALITY
DESTINY

You have no answers to any of those that pass the smell test.

I guess I have to do your thinking for you, since you're comfy being an ignoramus (latin for agnostic).

You're saying that because God has omniscience and sovereignty, that God could not create human beings with their own sovereignty, and then respect that sovereignty that He gave them.

And your basis for that is.......

Reading how to make better to decisions is itself a decision, driven by an impulse to learn. I'm waiting for you to demonstrate how our decisions are free from internal and external factors. N other words, how is the brain (you) free from the characteristics that affect the brain (genetics and environment)? Free will can't exist naturally. If it is real, there must be a supernatural explanation. But the paradox of the self continues if you substitute soul for brain. Free will is simply incoherent and the reason you don't realize it yet is because our language and your brain has tricked you into believing you have a "choice."

You simply do not have a working definition of free will.

Free will is your ability to choose from among your available options, including "do nothing".

When your will is imposed upon by another, who forces you to choose something you would not ordinarily choose, you would say that person has robbed you of your free will.

They aren't free from internal or external factors. I suppose we agree on that front. We just have to learn based on what we are given, after that I can't force you to go against your will. Your will is free from mine.

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

It's pretty self-explanatory, but I guess you didn't read it.

Oh, you cannot grasp that God sees the end from the beginning.

God sees the end from the beginning.

Work on understanding how He knew you would post this before He made the world.

Did god know I was about to put my finger up my asshole

You need a bigger concept of God. One Who constantly sustains the entire universe He made.

Imagine a universe in which a man's brain is determined to make decisions. However, he still thinks he made the decision. This is where you might call it free will, but I don't. You might have heard the phrase," he did it out of his own free will" when it's more accurate to say, "he willed it and no one else." How can you say that a psychopath with a bad childhood has the same amount of free will as a normal person?

But that supposed choice is just a result of previous factors of learned experiences in your life, your genetic make up, and the predisposed structure and function of your brain.

There is no reason to believe the choice youve made is derived from your own free will

>first moment of the big bang
It was never the first moment and the existence of chaos destroys all determined order eventually.

Because most behavior follows a Bell curve?

My background
My learning factors.
My genetics.
My experiences.
My brain.
My brain function.
My conscious mind.
My subconscious mind.
My unconscious mind.

Who else is involved again?

So you're saying that a programmed robot has as much free will as you? That a bacterium has as much free will as you? Those are your genetics, but you didn't choose them, because your parents gave them to you, but you can't choose your parents. Your genetics affect your actions, which will also affect your environment, which will then affect your genetics. Where does the freedom begin?

I have been braught up to believe that my freedom and free will is what males the human grwst or special.

The fact that i have no choice in my actions or their effect makes me wonder why i should do anything

I have been feeling like you too lately. I became obsessed with the butterfly effect and it makes me analize every action i make (even typing this). I hope it isn't a symptom of a mental illness

It's ok, dude. I didn't think I would get out of it, but it just kind of went away. It took weeks, if not months, though. There are positives, such as having compassion for criminals/idiots (they still need to be punished/conditioned), being humble, and not dwelling on your past failures.

>So you're saying that a programmed robot has as much free will as you? That a bacterium has as much free will as you?
Yes, because all of us have no free will

>Where does the freedom begin?
No where, for it never did begin

Not the same user, but I think you're missing the point.

You genetics/background/mind whatever still conform part of you, therefore those aspects you like to blame on your supposed lack of free will are, at the end, still you. What you're doing at the end is claiming you didn't murdered that woman, it was your hand, but not you. That, obviously, is nonsense, as having the tendency to murder doesn't imply you have to turn the desire into action.

And that's the point. Having someone whispering on the ear what to do doesn't imply the control over your personal life is outside your hands.

Prove it. On second thought don't bother, doesn't change much for me

My post was against free will. Read the post I was responding to

Him killing himself because of despair over the deterministic nature of the universe would also be determined though. If that's what he does.

Do you think people with mental disorders have the same free will as you?

All those factors may be attributed to your person, but they are all still out of your control

The argument isnt about whether or not your actions are you doing them, but whether or not you are doing said actions out of your own free will

This applies to too

Read the thread

Everything is either causal or random, there is no free will

Dude, you should read again my post. I got you were against free will because "muh ghost on the machine is controlling me!", but I was asserting said ghost is still you, therefore, you are controlling yourself, hence we do have free will.

Fun fact: having an external locus of control (AKA: my actions are controlled by someone else to me) is a typical sign for several mental disorders. By example, clinical depression. And the typical therapy starts with the patient learning they do have control over their own lives.

Yes, there are aspects outside our own hands that influence in our life. But that doesn't mean we don't have free will. It may be limited, but we still do have free will. Example: If we're driving a car, we may experience an accident, like a deer on the way, but at least for a few seconds we do still have our hands on the wheel, and those seconds can still made a difference.

And ultimately, many of those aspects are founded or accumulated through your life (why did you have to drive through a forest at night?), so paying attention to them is also a decision on itself.

I would be repeating myself if I argued with you, because you people say the same thing over and over
>we have free will because we make choices because we have free will
It's circular logic with no groundwork, no explanation, no mechanism for free will.
Read

Logic is invalid meme nonsense. There was no 'big bang'.
>believing in a 'narrow scope of human perception' and that a human can determine the origins of so-called existence
Wow so logical.

Basically, you're a meme.

>doesn't imply you have to turn the desire into action
Then there must be a competing desire, which is just as uncontrollable. The psychopath may occasionally remember that he may go to jail if he murders. Take away his memory, his sense of punishment, the retributions from society, and he will murder

The Big Bang is hardly an origin of the universe. Background radiation and expansion point to an expansion, that's it. We don't know how matter was created, who created it, whether or not it always existed, etc. Besides, the Big Bang could be substituted for God or Simulation and causality would still apply. The Big Bang happens to be the most scientifically accurate right now, though, in terms of observation and consistency with how the universe works.

>more STEMshit
'science' is not accurate, it's meme ideology that seems accurate because it is presupposed.

Is anything not a meme to you?

I really enjoy your perspective on life. From one anonymous human to another. Thank you.

Cute JCs on my lap

>when it is irrefutably logical that everything is already determined
It isn't. Quantum mechanics.
Have a nice day, watch a movie or something.

QM is invalid, like all STEMbabble.

Quantum mechanics can only prove a probabilistic universe, not free will