Why are Americams so obsessed with The Free Market

>"the invisible hand is ridiculous because the economy is too complex to run by itself"
>"what we need to do is to have government bureaucrats who are working with incomplete knowledge plan it instead"

t. market fundamentalists

except that nobody talks about the free hand of the market, they talk about Pareto improvements, which are calculable

Just before his death in 1946, Keynes told Henry Clay, a professor of social economics and advisor to the Bank of England[65] of his hopes that Adam Smith's 'invisible hand' can help Britain out of the economic hole it is in: "I find myself more and more relying for a solution of our problems on the invisible hand which I tried to eject from economic thinking twenty years ago."[66]
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Keynes

I AM SILLY

>Why are Americams so obsessed with The Free Market

Because sons-of-bitches keep trying to fuck with it

Americans thrive on exploitation

>free market
>capitalism
Pick one

No one talks like this, but I have surely seen socialists who actually do treat their economic ideology as a religion

It lets people of ambition and skill to climb up and make good fucking money and accumulate property at tax rates which are very favorable compared to socialist countries like Canada, France, and the UK where your salary is basically eviscerated by taxes so you can do well but never great. You also have pretty great autonomy over your business so you can fire and hire at will, negotiate benefits, and outsource your labor, whereas its nearly fucking impossible to do the same in France or Germany or any other state with strong worker rights. Also important is that America is a multiethnic state where if you're a white or chink, you don't want to set up a gibsmedat fund for fucking niggers and spics because fuck them, why should they eat from your sweat?

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Why can't foreigners fuck off? Why are /int/ template threads not banable?

>socialist countries like Canada, France, and the UK

This is as socialist as you can get without a starvation.

Wew lad
What about socialism causes starvation?
>inb4 "breadlines" you conflate Stalinism and Marxist-Leninism with all of socialism

What about anarchists?
Anarchists are socialists. Do they worship the all powerful government?

>this is what Americans unironically believe

Wait so libertarianism is fucking nazis to you people? how Insane you are?

You realize Libertarians and authoritharians are literally on the other side of the spectrum but again

Hi Neogaf kid...

""""Libertarian"""" capitalist are really just individualist authoritarians

>Individualist
>Authoritarian

There is a contradiction there and you know it.

>Do they worship the all powerful government?

No, just warlordism.

Really? So how come there are tardy ancaps worshipping absolute monarchy?

I really don't know about those, but if they do that and claim to be ancaps then they aren't being good ancaps.

Capitalism is inherently authoritarian
Private property ownership
Wage labor
It's fucked

Americans are possibly the most brainwashed populace on the planet.

Ask Maduro

I'm not arguing capitalism isn't fucked, I'm just saying that to argue for minimal state control over an individual is very different to argue for everything inside and for the state, which is the definition of Fascism.

As for private property and wage labour, those will always exist, even in communistic states, the way real life works is very different from die hard socialist utopia. Most democratic socialistic countries nowaday such as the scandinavians have both of these things because for wealth to be distributed it must be generated on the first place.

The Scandinavian countries aren't even as socialistic as a lot of people think they are. They are essentially free market economies with high taxes and a welfare state.

t. Norwegian.

>Wages must necessarily follow a linear path with productivity, even when said productivity has nothing to do with improved work on the part of the laborer.

I must know though what the author calls "productivity" and how he measures it. Odds are, all increases in "productivity" are actually increases in wealth which in fact is actually the result of speculators getting rich off of the Federal Reserve's largesse and credit bubbles.

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They work pretty well though, much better than your traditional communist state when put to practice, though Idk how you could export this model for other countries.

I'm saying this before /pol/ gets to it.

Fucking immigrant tax leeches

This is supposed to prove what? That people are stupid and have no idea about their ideological definition.

Also I'm a lefty and even I hate Antifa, thanks fucking christ we don't have them here in Algeria, as if this country didn't have enough problems already.

That ancaps gravitate towards fascism. I literally seem them all the time. Just go on any Nazi music video on youtube and youll probably seem some ancap or libertarian flags in the comments praising them. Or the Pinochet worship for example even though executed tens of thousands without a trial. They orgasm at the thought of killing their political enemies. I don't like antifa either, that wasn't the point of the picture.

You were the one bringing /pol/ into this, you know, by whining about them in every thread...

There's a reason i am always nagging you on every thread, because you are more annoying than effective, that is if your mission is even to stop the stormfags, you are just coming off as buttblasted and for the lack of a better word "triggered".

Let them shit themselves and just ignore them, it's not like you are fighting a new nazi uprising, you are literally yelling at trolls who are loving your butthurt.

Take note, T. fellow Lefty.

Yeah I get it there are edgy kids who call themselves "ancap" without realizing what it really means (If you look at the actual ideology "ancap fascist" is a contradiction, just like "Communist corporativist".), also take note that not everybody interested on nazism and the history of WWII is an actual Nazi. For example i'm interested on the Africa theater because i'm from Algeria and my grandpa literally lived through it, same reason i'm also interested on the colonial French period despite not being a colonialist.

>They work pretty well though

They have for about 40 years. Whether they will continue to do so for another 40 years depends a lot on future generations' productivity.

Yeah but what I mean is they're sure better than the alternative.

I'm sorry, but seen too many examples of this happening. A large amount of ancaps and libertarians have sympathies with fascists, and a good number also support a monarchy as well ironically. This isn't me being a hysterical lefty or exaggerating. I'm just stating what I've seen.

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Then they're not good ancaps/libertarians, that's what you get for looking at videos of underage kids from youtube

You take this place, and the internet way too seriously man, like you're fearing the next Kristallnacht is gonna spring from here

It won't, don't worry, if you see a fascist or a troll just ignore them, only engage if they are polite enough like in the one thread we had about fascism here a few years ago where fascists and non fascists managed to debate without shit flinging. As for /pol/acks, the same thing, just ignore them, it's not like everyone is forcing you to go to the threads they post, and it's not like anyone takes them seriously.

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Man, I wish it was the same in France bud. The "not having Antifa" shit I mean.

Won't say it'd sound like paradise, but I'd get less headaches. Fuckers go around the neighborhood everytime there's some retarded reason for it.

We have some far more fucked up problems than Antifa though Francobro, but yeah, not having those shits whining histerically about the most inane and stupid stuff is good i guess.

Salutations d'Algérie!

Why are foreigners so obsessed with Americans?

Yeah you missed my argument with the NeoGaf kid and the part that i'm not a libertarian actually

Nice meme though, I'm stealing it.

I think the people who are both ancap and fascist are people who are most likely american, and have confusion reconciling their Ron Paul and Trump hard-ons.

On a related note, I'm willing to bet most Trump supporters (not internet people) where Tea parties/Glenn Beck fans just a few years ago and they never stopped to think about how their past and current ideologies don't match up. Same reason why they didn't realize their social conservatism was at odds with their libertarianism-leanings.

Are you trying to imply that there haven't been countless historical and contemporary examples of traditional and pre industrial civilizations that were absent of wage labor and legal constructs protecting private property(absentee ownership, land capitalization) as well as industrial examples such as anarchist Catalonia, and the small pockets of mostly unrecognized anarchism to be found throughout the world?
The problem is the states part

Also the Nordic states are more welfare capitalism, i guess they think dem soc sounds better

I'm not afraid of them lol, they're fringe idiots not capable of anything.

And I'm afraid I disagree again. I've seen plenty of mainstream libertarians have authoritarian tendencies. Even from the main main himself. Here is just one quote
>Again: unleash the cops to clear the streets of bums and vagrants. Where will they go? Who cares? Hopefully, they will disappear, that is, move from the ranks of the petted and cosseted bum class to the ranks of the productive members of society.

Also pic related

It's a reaction to the more histerical,for the lack of the better word "college left" that permeates your country and doesn't really act like leftists but more like a spoiled elite of entitled brats who think themselves the absolute purveyours of truth and justice and saviours of the universe while they are actually a bunch of whining kids who still live with their parents and aren't much better than the "nazis" or "alt righters" they are supposedly against. I'm willing to guess that the way that these people act is one of the main thing driving those young people towards the populist right mainly because the college left won't let them address their issues and they find those right wing outlets the omly way for them to vent their frustration.

One can say the, for the lack of a better word "SJW" left in america is to blame for the country's push into the right.

Again, I'm born and raised in Algeria, a very conservative and traditionalist country, I know how conservatives act and their talking points (although our conservatives are a tad more extreme than yours), the best thing the left does right now is to dissociate themselves with the "SJW" people and try to address actual socioeconomic issues, identity politics on the american left is also a festering cancer that needs to be dealt with, i don't know much about your country but from my interactions online most american leftists are more worried about identity bullshit than about the problems of the poor or the growing unemployment and homelessness. Perhaps it's time to think back our strategies and act more logically if we want to stop nationalist populism in your country.

As for mine, well I kinda lost hope a while ago...

The reason the left concentrates so hard on identity politics is that the amount of corporate money in American politics has made real reform almost impossible.

>lets people of ambition and skill to climb up

O i m laffin

That means you abandon the fight and alienate your base? What kind of attitude is that? Sure it may seem hard but you still have to push it, there's a reason so many supported Bernie Sanders, it was because atleast from what it seems to me, A foreigner, he represented change from this system and the left in america could use people like that. People who actually reach into the small man and his struggles and not corporatists with a nice liberal facade that seems as plastic as it can be.

The alt right is the bastard child of the identity politics, and I think many in the american left are starting to realize that, as for you, It won't change no one's mind to shitpost about them 24/7 on an anonymous imageboard as if it's the most important threat to civilization.

The reason these right wingers are growing is because everytime you act repressively towards them, you are actually make them stronger and making them seem like a victim, Satyagraha is a thing and they're using it to its max extent. If you want to reduce the right's influence propose changes that will help the little man and the downtrodden, offer people what identitaries (both left or right) can't offer.

The right wing always thinks they are the victim. 'War on Christmas' and such.

Yes, the difference is, you guys are now giving them reason to think that way with the stupid identity bullshit. That's the main point you have to fix, get rid of identity politics and watch that sentiment slowly decline.

Also stop bringing your fights to fucking online imageboards for crying out loud, form a coalition, join a political party, do real action not whining that an imageboard doesn't cater exactly to your own tastes and worldviews.

You look as pathetic as them when you do that and this needs to change.

Oh look, it's not an argument.

>Why do retards exist
Great argument.

Anecdotal evidence, great arguments

Try setting up a business or be an upper middle class professional in any of those countries and compare it to a similar American entity and you'll realize that if you wanna get rich in this lifetime, it won't be in a country with a top tax rate of fucking 45% and pro-labor laws that make it virtually impossible to fire incompetent workers.

>look at me, I nit-pick quotes from authors without doing any research
>I didnt birher to look into the fact that he was almost completely divorced from the libertarian ideology at that point and only mentioned them from time to time to save bis reputation as a libertarian author, despite the fact that his doing so only muddied up the waters as to what they actually believed
>I am going to completely ignore the fact that this quote was from a piece he did for a populist newsletter where he voiced support for white-supremacist, hyper-nationalistic conspiracy theorist David Duke and drafted the various planks of a "A right-wing populist program"
>hurr durr I am not Veeky Forums savvy and will intentionally misrepresent an author and his works to support my own world-views

Also while we are nit-picking literature, here is a quote from the bible I think is exceedingly relevant
>"Judas went out and hanged himself; ... Go thou and do thou likewise."

Read this shit for yourselves:
archive.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/ir/Ch5.html

Yes there is

No, there isn't

Proving the point that ancaps and libertarians gravitate towards fascism...

Rothbard has been given his due for being the progenitor of many of the modern libertarian and ancap schools of thought, but that doesnt mean he isnt heavily criticized for turning prow and heading down another direction entirely and, as I mentioned before, muddying the waters of the ideology.

Saying all right-liberal thinkers drift towards fascism because rothbard was a populist late in life is like saying all leftists drift towards self-criticisng revisionism because Orwell wrote Animal Farm, criticising the Marxist-Leninist.

Stop backpedaling towards stances that seem easier to defend and actually contribute a cohesive argument.

*criticising the Marxist-Leninist government of Soviet Russia

Somehow that fell off.

Free market has the same problems communism has. On paper it's quite perfect but in practice the people fuck it over. Free market capitalism requires a perfectly knowledgeable and logically acting population, while we know that the people are very much not omniscient or logical to the max. So there's very much inefficiency and other crap as result.

Wrong. Divide and rule, ever heard of that phrase?? When a society becomes individualist it makes it that much easier for a higher authority to control them all

>socialist countries like Canada, France, and the UK

Wew this free market sure is great when a snakebite puts you 6 gorillon dollars in debt. Also nice unskilled labor having stagnating wages and as well as the existence of unpaid internships you fat homos.

>Capitalism is inherently authoritarian
Only if you don't actually know what authoritarian means.

Pinochet killed may have5k to 10k iirc. Tenss of thousands is exaggerated user

Real talk: its because its all they have.

Okay, even putting a pin in your retarded "warlordism" com commentent, how does this make a person who fully believes in mans capacity and right to self-ownership (and by extension his self-determination) an authoritarian in any way? Because an authoritarian regime popping up MAY be a possible consequence of people behaving in a way that avoids illegitimate coersion wherever possible? This entire method of reasoning reeks of false cause and the slippery slope fallacy.

This also doesnt address how individualism can be authoritarian if it is in its nature to reject all authority by adhering to the universal principal of negative rights, but from what I can tell either you dont know anything about the platform of individualism or hoped to not bring it up hoping that nobody here would bring it up.

>Charles Mansion
>Dow Jonestown
I laughed.

>Anarchists are socialists
Jesus christ

Anarchism is socialist, what else would it be?

Private property requires authority to up hold
Wage labor is a micro command economy

Anarchism was an almost exclusively leftist system until rothbard came along and fucked everything up

The private sector in Venezuela is larger than France's

>laws to ensure people respect private ownership is authoritarian

>owning 10,000 acres of land you never touch and paying people 10.00$ an hour to work it for you so they can afford to eat and have a place to sleep isn't authoritarian.
Property is theft to all who are deprived

Labor is property, without it there is no theft.

>“Crowned heads, wealth and privilege may well tremble should ever again the Black and Red unite!"
Maybe before posting on a history board, read some fucking history

Libertarians are literally heartless psychopaths I recall one of them saying that if old people can't care for themselves then there's nothing wrong if they die if hunger.

Personal property
Except in capitalism, an economic system that allows people to privately "own"(steal) other people's labor

Honestly it's not that libertarians don't care about the suffering of others, its just that we dont like the thought of the state holding a gun to our heads, taking 100 dollars from us and give 10 of it to the old man whilst keeping the rest for themselves.

Also nice anecdote, faggot. Really puts your position on solid ground.

Right wing anarchist thought can trace itself as far back as Frédéric Bastiats pamphlet "The Law" that he published in 1850

>"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it"

Maybe you should stop fellating dead men who didnt understand economics and actually do some research for yourself.

>Extreme circumstances of absenteeism gives me the moral authority to persecute, rob and butcher anyone who not only owns property but anybody who would resist me.

Yeah, those middle-class farmers certainly deserved worse comrade, that will teach them to store some grain for themselves to eat during a famine.

>>Extreme circumstances of absenteeism gives me the moral authority to persecute, rob and butcher anyone who not only owns property but anybody who would resist me.
Who are you quoting?
>making up a straw man to argue against because you can't defend yourself
Pro tip
People are more civilized now than they were at the beginning of the 20th century

>owning 10,000 acres of land you never touch and paying people 10.00$ an hour to work it for you so they can afford to eat and have a place to sleep isn't authoritarian.

Who exactly where you making an example of here? I was simply playing off of your ridiculous conjecture with one of my own.

Also it's the 21st century, retard.

where do most of the world's millionaires live?

this

very few americans give a damn about the free market