Why does Veeky Forums never talk about the Sengoku Jidai?

Bring me my tetsubō!

What the hell is that on his head?

>Uesugi Kenshin
>Not Date Masamune

A 140cm tall helmet. 55 inches for Amerifriends.

lewd

*smacks lips profusely*
SO HOL UP HOL UP
*destroys Imagawa*
SO U BE SAYIN
*spreads christianity*
SO HOL UP U BE SAYIN
*burns monasteries*
AYYYOOOO SO U BE SAYIN
*fucks boipussy*
U BE SAYIN
*shoots horsefuckers*
WE WUZ
*dresses in western clothing*
SHOGUNS N SHEEET
*spams Ashigaru stacks*

>4kg

It's like a silly Touhou hat, but real.

yasuke pls go

Who was the best general? Toyotomi or Tokugawa?

Toyotomi was the better general but Tokugawa was the better statesman.

It's not Hitler.

You mean who was the better general between the two? I'd say Toyotomi

>HERE WE GO

Monkey boi? Why him? (Not the guy you replied to)

People talk about Chinese history all the time. Warring States Japan is just uninteresting.

The two arent that far apart honestly but monkey boi had much humbler beginnings and had to deal with more dangerous shit like assuring the rearguard during Oda's retreat from Asakura territory
Tokugawa has his fair share of genius and daring moves but he also had more fuck ups

I see, that's a valid point. Hideyoshi kinda went delusional during the later years though.

Headscarf of the warrior monks.

>This triggers the Oda

Talk shit to me one more time I swear I'll burn your fucking temple down and kill everyone that tries to run!

Ayayayaya

...

Was there a bigger bro than Hattori Hanzo?

In Hyouge Mono Toyotomi is basically behind Oda Nobunaga's assassination. Since he is the one that benefited the most from the situation, do you think it's possible he really had a part on this?

I doubt he had any direct hand in it since he as one of Nobunaga's top generals he'd be viewed with the most suspicion from both Nobunaga and the rest of Japan alike. That being said I wouldn't be surprised if he knew of the plot in advance and simply chose not to inform Nobunaga.

Masamune was great as a leader bu Kenshin was practically unrivaled as a military leader. Whooped Nobunaga at Tedorigawa and about the only person who could put the fear of god into him.

>apocryphal stories
Ninja weren't really a thing like that. Also Hanzo Hattori was a samurai, not a ninja.

The two are not mutually exclusive. He is noted to have worked with actual ninjas from Iga and Koga, as well as himself having done special missions like hostage rescues and night time raids.

People just need to realize "ninja" doesn't always mean wearing all black with fucking throwing stars

Cuz Nips and chinks in particular have a propensity to use the linguistic equivalent of fucking poetry to describe their histories, describing battles between people who didn't exist with armies that numbered in the hundreds of mirrions.

The Sengoku Jidai doesn't suffer from inflation of the numbers, but it certainly suffers from the inflation of the individual like most of Japanese culture does, and it's next to impossible to get an honest account that isn't complete revisionism.

Why do some higher class Japanese look so European?

If I recall correctly that painting is not an accurate portrayal of what he actually looked like and it was made by a European which emphasizes the caucasian look.

hi folks I'm just a friendly pilgrim from afar wanting to spread the mikotoba of dainichi :3

I know this is going out on a limb here, but maybe we could have a South East Asia general? Now hear me out before you REEE gents.

There's a lot to talk about when it comes to history in Asia, hell there's tons to talk about with just China, or Japan, and a lot of different eras to talk about. Problem is, not a whole lot of people know a lot about them. I know I'd like to know more about history in the region as a whole, and I can probably educate a little on the Meiji Restoration (particularly the Boshin Wars) and the Russian-Japanese war, since I've studied that period a lot. If we made a general, then we could put our collective knowledge together, build up a good starter pastebin for the popular periods, and just generally have a slow, steady stream of discourse.

Of course there would be memes and shitposting, but look at the state of the board as a whole. I'd be willing to put up with some Cao Cao and Nobunaga posting if it meant someone could actually give me a good starting point to study the Boxer Rebellion, or the rise of the Emperor and samurai as a warrior class in Japan, or anything at all about Korea. I'm sure there's some user here who has esoteric knowledge about what people in Vietnam where doing in 600 BC, why not give him somewhere to talk about it?

If there's any interest I'd be willing to curate (basically just make threads, update pastebins, etc) because I browse all hours because of a strange work schedule.

Think about it Veeky Forums, it could be great. It could be comfy.

Get crucified, cuck.

Build it and they will come.

Was this movie any good?
You think so? I know Veeky Forums pretty vehemently hates generals, but I think one about SEA would be justified.

Because the Chinese did warring states earlier and better

japs have thin faces, that's all it is

If you started a thread with a legit OP, providing sources, suggested reading, and topics of discussion then you could get some posters.

The sources would need to be a collaborative effort, and I'm just gauging reaction and interest. I, for instance, know some very good and fairly easy to read books for beginners about the overthrow of the Tokugawa Shogunate and could even upload a few, but I don't have any sources outside of Mary Berrys Hideyoshi for the Sengoku period, and wouldn't even know where to start with the ROTK.

And what about discussion of Buddhism and Confucian philosophy? Should they be included, or should I shy away from &humanities? Are there anons willing to help out?

It's darkly funny is a way, because the Japanese wouldn't have known about crucifixion unless the Christians told them about it.

"yes yes, very interesting. Tell me more about these 'Romans' and how they executed Christians."

is the film any good

my japanese history professor, who was adopted in japan by protestant family, was pretty excited for it.

Why did Japan become the greatest power in Asia during the 19th/20th century? China was bigger and richer, they should have become the greatest power in Asia instead

Yes it's very good if you like slow films, and definitely a must see if you are interested in Japan. it should have been nominated for the Oscar

It is a good film that takes a lot of strange routes. The movie presents facts that are not commonly known, so I appreciated that much, but it also makes large assumptions and creative decisions. It's a movie though so I let them go

China had been worn down and broken by corruption within and foregin meddling without.

Japan was very aware of this and its leaders were willing to do just about anything to avoid it, So when westerners came they basically bought all the technology they could from them and were pretty much willing to sell out their own culture in order to modernize. The Japanese cultural nationalism of the showa era was a backlash to this.

basically Japan was in a position to learn from China's mistakes and they wanted it more.

China, despite being larger, was divided by warlords that were busying trying to usurp the old style Emperorship kind of government while also balancing out Western influences.

Japan just said "fuck it" and took Westernization with open arms. They force fed peasants a mix of Western values and classical "you must serve the common good" to the point that the Meiji Restoration forged a modern nation out a feudal one within three generations. There were growing pains of course - Fall of the Samurai, the Great Depression, and eventually military junta - but Japan still grew into the modern power that it is today.

The hattori clan were a bunch of sneaky fucks with close ties to ninja.

>were pretty much willing to sell out their own culture in order to modernize.

there's something about the argument youre making rubs me the wrong way.

industrialization =/= westernization.

the qing chinese mid-late 19th century self-strengthening movement aimed to subordinate western technology to help the qing dynasty to defend against aggressive western powers that were brining unwanted cultural/intellectual change,

But that's what makes it fun, their actual historical storytelling sounds like irl Dynasty Warriors.

You shouldn't have done that.

"A History of Japan" By George Sansom (British diplomat to Japan way back, studied their history extensively). I got it from Tokyo but it comes in three volumes(all English) the Second volume covers 1334-1615 fairly deeply, with the Rise of Ashikaga (Takauji), The fight for power between the southern and northern courts, Ashikaga supremacy,The Onin wars, the rise of Oda Nubunaga, The Sengoku Daimyo's, Hideyoshi Toyotomi's Rise to power & political aims, Hideyohi's invasion of Korea, his last years, the rise of Tokugawa Ieyasu, and the early years of the Tokugawa Government.

The first volume won't be of much use for the Sengoku period, though the third book does cover the 1615-1867.

China was trying its damndest to not modernize while Japan went into high gear with it with the start of the Meiji Restoration.

Not him but the Japanese DID kinda equate industrialization with westernization for a period. They were so in love with western culture for a short time that some Japanese were actually considering having europeans impregnate their women so that the superior western seed could create a more powerful next generation (since eugenics was all the rage back then). Needless to say this proposal didn't go over well.

this was posted in other threads. its a bibliography made by a cambridge professor listing all the major english language works on japan in all eras
intranet.ames.cam.ac.uk/jbib/

Nobunaga is pretty awesome, I need to find a good book on him to read.

In the minds of many Japanese at the time anything western was superior.

Unlike the qing self strengthening movement they realized that western technology would not be enough without also adopting the sciences, business and academic methods that created it and drove it.

An unfortunate consequence of this is that many at the top started to see Japanese things as inferior. The martial arts nearly died out for example because they were seen as backwards and outdated.

There was a German doctor in Tokyo who noted youth of the upper class did nothing but isolate themselves reading western books and suggested martial arts as exercise. His efforts were poo poo'd by the Japanese themselves untill he took the extraordinary step of joining a kenjutsu dojo and making connections with jujutsu practitioners, including a young Kano. One reason judo became big was that Kano styled it as a "scientific" and "gentlemanly" jujutsu.

large numbers of the samurai from Iga were ninja and/or bandits. The line between Samurai and peasant was really fucking blurry during the Sengoku Jidai, and only began to properly developed under Toyotomi and the Tokugawa Shogunate.

I'd say it's a combination of a couple of factors. First, Japan had a really powerful unifying factor in the Emperor, who was far more revered than his Chinese counterpart (mainly because the Shogunate copped all the crap when shit went wrong). Second, that Japanese did a far better job of removing potentially resistive or counter-revolutionary elements during the Boshin War and Satsuma rebellion. Third, Japan was really rich per capita, and had a fairly well developed middle class that could finance their development. Forth, Japan was geographically much smaller than China, which made it easier for the new government and bureaucracy to administer the country, especially with the introduction of steamships, railroads and telegrams. And finally, as far as the westerns were concerned, Japan wasn't anywhere near as desirable as China, so they never tried to carve out spheres of influence and "leased' territory. This gave Japan the time and security to modernize, which China never got.

Who was the actual successor to the Han dynasty?

>Gets BTFO at Komaki-Nagakute
>Afraid shitless of Tanuki
funny monkeyposter

The thing about "ninja" is that its mostly a modern catch all turn for any spy, assassin, special forces, ect.

In the period there were multiple terms with varying meanings.

Iga was a place full of low ranking samurai and small land owners rather than a major daimyo, It was also very mountainous so the warriors there used very different tactics from the large armies of ashigaru under people like Nobunaga

>Why does Veeky Forums never talk about the Sengoku Jidai?
There's a thread on it at least once a week. Out of all the topics about Japan, it's the most discussed behind WW2.

I think a lot of the problem is just that there hasn't been a serious study on the Sengoku Jidai in the west. The only books are bullshit "LEGENDS OF DA SAMOORYE" stuff or Turnbull who's a "MUH BUSHIDO BADASSES" enthusiast. A serious, legit work that people could reference would probably help hings considerably.

>who was far more revered than his Chinese counterpart (mainly because the Shogunate copped all the crap when shit went wrong).
And more importantly, due to a lack of a Mandate of Heaven, the Emperor of Japan has been one single continuous family line for 2000 years.

So is it true that the Satsuma Rebellion was basically fought over the samurai wanting to keep their right to abuse and kill peasants whenever they felt like it?

It's a tricky situation, that's obviously much more complex than that. Saigo Takamori, who lead the Satsuma rebellion, was a nigh-legendary figure of the Boshin war, and had actually been the Imperial Army's first field marshal. He retired to Satsuma, opened up a few schools that basically became paramilitary organizations, and started to become disgruntled and angry about what was happening in Kyoto.

He started to believe his own hype basically, and decided to march his army to the capital to see why the Emperor's cabinet was disrespecting the warrior and leader class the way they were. He actually thought that once he took the field, a bunch of smaller rebellions would pop up all over Japan spontaneously, and the Meiji administration would crumble. The crazy thing is that if he had actually sent agents out and made plans, this could have happened, or so we believe. It's hard to overstate what a big deal he was at the time, but he didn't plan his rebellion properly. A few other rebellions actually did crop up, but they were too small to affect anything.

The big misconception is that the Satsuma forces hated Western technology and only used swords and bows out of some sense of samurai ethos. The truth is after the first 2 major engagements they literally ran out of bullets and arms and had to resort to guerilla attacks with old style weaponry that their great grandparents probably used.

Well there are academic histories...

isn't true that Shinsengumi only used swords?

Thats an interesting question. I'm fairly certain that they were generally only armed with swords while on duty but, like most samurai, they loved guns and used them. I know that their vice commander Hijikata Toshiro, aside from being the handsomest and most dapper motherfucker during the Restoration, owned a 6 shooter (Colt Army? Navy possibly?) and wore it on his hip.

Let me do some reading and I'll get back to you on that.

If youre interested in the period, here's a Russian website that has a lot of excellent books for download, you know, what with their very lax copyright laws and all.

bakumatsu.ru/library/en-lib.html

I'd recommend starting with "The Last Samurai: Life and Battles of Saigo Takamori," and "Sakomoto Ryoma and the Meiji Restoration," as good starting points into the period. Ryoma's book is a little boring through the first bit, but stick with it, he's a very interesting figure.

But like I said I'll see what exactly I can dig up about the Shinsengumi.

90% of what I know about the Sengoku Jidai is from niptoons. Are there any good texts (academic or otherwise) that could give an in-depth review of the period?

I've seen Mary Elizabeth Berry's "Hideyoshi" referred to as an excellent starting point for the period. I've read another of her books, which I can't recall for the life of me, and she's an excellent author, her books are fantastic to read.

EArly on they used swords, spears and armor. They eventually armed themselves with modern firearms though I do not believe they used them as well as western influenced militia.

Awesome no wonder they are such a legend. thanks for the site is very nice.

best warband mod Sengoku Jidai.

Gekokoju? Have you seen the new Rising Sun mod?

Jaromír, Duke of Bohemia was assassinated the same way.

In Japan there is a lot of study of the Sengoku ara, with shows and documentaries. Getting translated materials can be tough tho

Who's the most based Meiji figure? I'm reading Making of Modern Japan and am now entering Imperial period with the first elections and the last days of the state builders and stuff and doing more reading I've really grown to respect guys like Ito Hirobumi and Fukuzawa Yukichi. I'm really wanting to read Fukuzawa's autobiography and other writings.

Actually is there a similar resource that covers the post-Bakumatsu/early Imperial era? The closest book I can find is Emperor of Japan - Meiji and His World.

clearly thats a gross exaggeration, just see the amount of books in.
the problem is you're taking what little works on the period you've been exposed to and making a hasty generalization out of it

So did anything important happen during Japan's isolationism? Most history stories treat Sakoku like it was a blank period where it was pure stagnation.

That fucking picture of Nobunaga has always confused me

A picture of a painting that no longer suvives so you assume its an actual photo and your time references get messed up cuz nobunaga isn't from when cameras were a thing

Not to mention as some have said, he probably didn't look quite like that.

You bring up excellent questions that I don't really have an answer to. Aside from basedness, which was this absolute madman.

Nothing super important as far as the rest of the world goes, but the idea Japan spent 250 years frozen in time is largely a myth.

There was a huge population explosion, and huge market revolution, and a slow cultural shift. The Feudal system set up by Hideoshi slowly broke down as samurai went broke and merchants could buy higher status. While most of the famous swordsman of the early Edo era were decedents of the highest of samurai nobility, most of the famous swordsmen of the late Edo were from non-samurai lineages, and only lifted to the rank because of their skills

It's kind of funny reading Jansen's book because I really wanted to read about the Edo Period and didn't care as much for the Meiji yet I found the Edo Period kind of dull while the building of the Meiji state, the rapid and carefully done modernization and emergence on the world stage is probably one of the single most fascinating things I've ever read. It's given me a great amount of respect for the Meiji state builders.

Meme story to justify the turbo-cancer he got from drinking so much.

South east asia is Thailand, Indonesia, etc. Japan, Korea and China are East Asia.

Don't make a fucking general, just make an east asia thread.

Saigo was a big dude. He barely looks japanese.

Sengoku Rance