What exactly is wrong with the system?

What exactly is wrong with the system?
Speaking for western capitalism.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike
thetimes.co.uk/article/big-brands-mcdonalds-ikea-lloyds-tiffany-unilever-dove-shun-straight-white-britain-in-their-adverts-trevor-phillips-lrrfdgtpg
onlinelibrary.wiley.com.sci-hub.cc/doi/10.1111/1468-2427.00251/full
favaretoufabc.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/2015-steffen-et-al-the-great-acceleration-1.pdf
ecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss1/art24/
colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/ecology/readings.htm
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Growing wealth disparity. It needs to be reined in for the good of humanity.

What's wrong with Rich people being rich and poor people being poor?

Government interference, socialist policices.

0/10 bait you didn't even try

The super rich consider minor tax hikes and stronger safety nets to be literal communism, I hope one day they are staring down the business end of a rifle getting accommodated with actual Communism.

>western capitalism
I think you mean global capitalism
Pic related and many more serious issues that aren't existential threats

Our culture wasn't ready for this much prosperity.

Progressive taxes are cancerous, communism is cancerous.

>safety nets

There's no such thing.

0/10 bait

Poor people tend to get pissed and kill the rich people. It's one of the many reasons a large middle class is important.

It is fundamentally unsustainable and predisposed to wealth inequality and the establishment of poverty in either absolute or relative terms.

>i dont have an argument so i guess its bait

>capitalism is unsustainable

False, an outright lie.

>wealth inequality

Historically that's the rule, not the exception. It's nothing new that came with "western capitalism".

Government increases poverty and does nothing to reduce it, capitalism gets people out of poverty.

>i'll just post some nonsense bait

>wealth inequality is bad
Capitalist countries have poor fat people. Do you have a better alternative system?

how the fuck are you going to change the system?

By an armed marxist revolution of course!

Guys, the solution is clear. we need to take the anprim pill and return to the nature ways.

>Government interference, socialist policices.

When this system collapses in the end, but the question is if it will be too late to save anything when this happen.

Is cuff fixing the male version of thott legs?

>PreWar New Vegas and Post-War New Vegas

I like a welfare state, I also like businesses being able to make money.

I think the problem is that while government regulation is necessary, theres nothing straightforward to it, too many intertangling laws.

Corporations having status as people has also allowed them to intermingle with government to the point that the government protects corporate interests instead of the people employed by the corporations.

Meanwhile on the social side people are just statifying themselves into new groups or newer forms of old collectivism so that underclasses everywhere are starting to get desperate, and hate each other.

>redistribution could be achieved without forcing everyone
>forcing everyone could be achieved without some kind of coordination
>coordination can be achieved without direction and planning
>direction and planning can be achieved without a government
How many fallacies can be fitted inside marxist theory?

>Progressive taxes are cancerous, communism is cancerous
Not an argument.
>safety nets don't exist
lol

State capitalism is a necesary stage to socialism.

>taxes are theft, say the capitalist

Sure let's go back to the days when government kept out of business and workers had the choice between getting shot for unionizing, dying in an unregulated workplace, and/or starving.

>government regulation is necessary

jews. it is just that simple. reomve the jews from the equation, everything becomes simple

Being fat is just as awful as starving if you suffer from diabetes, kidney failure heart disease or any accompanying diseases or sumptoms that come with that. Not to mention the social stigma

>t. the ancrap

>not an argument

Literally an argument.

Taxation is theft, progressive taxation even more so.

kys

Profit is theft

Fuck off lame troll, at least post some arguments

plus niggers...

>I like the welfare state

Why would you like something so inferior to the market?

Government regulation is not necessary.

Move to Venezuela if you don't like profit.

>le troll

Great argument.

>they're the only ones who actually fell for the ancrap meme
REALLY makes me THINK

The workers always had a choice to stop working at a factory with such bad conditions, but of course because the government interfered in the free market with regulations and taxes it meant fewer companies and therefore less competition, allowing rich industrialists to create monopolies and securing favours with the politicians. Also, just like today in third world countries, people chose to work in factories even with bad conditions because the alternative was much worse. And to add to that just take a look at the statistics. Capitalism managed to get millions of people out of poverty in just a century and it still does.

>warlords using force to coerce people
>somehow ancap

Completely and utterly btfo by

It may have managed to birth millions of people out of poverty and provenly into it, millions more.

>provenly into it, millions more.
You're pulling that out of your ass.

>people having sex is the fault of capitalism

>>redistribution could be achieved without forcing everyone
It could. All that needs to be done is to eliminate the force that maintains the current system.

>>forcing everyone could be achieved without some kind of coordination
Any type of large-scale coercion would require a considerable degree of coordination.

>>coordination can be achieved without direction and planning
Nonsense, they're basically one and the same.

>>direction and planning can be achieved without a government
Any entity capable of doing so can reasonably be called a government.

>Taxation is theft, progressive taxation even more so.
Not any more then rent is. You consent to paying taxes by choosing to live in a country. Thinking you have a "right" to live in a country without paying taxes is like saying you have a right to walk into a store and take stuff without paying.

Markets by themselves do not consistently fulfill the needs of the entire populace.

The workers didn't have a meaningful choice, because the choice was either work at another factory with similar conditions, or starve. And besides, it's absurd to claim that regulations and taxes are worse than poor working conditions - if poor working conditions are "okay" because the employees can always go and work somewhere else with better conditions, the same is true of the factory owners themselves. If they don't like regulations, why don't they move to a country that lacks regulations? It's their choice.

Warlords go against ancap ideology, however an ancap society would have no ability to prevent warlords from taking power unless that society was willing to go against ancap ideology. In other words, ancap ideology is flawed because it is unable to defend itself without violating its basic principles.

the people in charge all know each other or cooperate in organised groups

the rest of us dont

hence we all get fucked, while they profit

can the retarded ancaps pls leave?

there are good arguments to defend capitalism as a system (and against certain regulation, tax etc) but your idiocy helps to turn people away from it

>you consent

No I don't, I'm forced.

Except the store isn't forcing me to give them 50% of my income.

>markets doesn't fulfill the needs of the entire populace

And neither does the government, in fact the market provides much better than the government in every aspect.

>stupid people don't like capitalism
>stop arguing why capitalism is the best system of all time people will turn away from it

Let retards be retards, there's no helping them.

>the workers didn't have a choice

Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there. Regulations and taxes cause more harm than low skilled jobs.

Indeed it is true for business owners, hence why regulations and taxation are so bad.

the version the ancaps sell is just as retarded as anticapitalists

Its the best we have. That there are imperfections that occasionally hurt people is not an argument against it because there is no better alternative.

Social democracy is not an alternative, its a variant, possible in countries flush with cash and possessing trade offs of its own

>the choice was either work at another factory with similar conditions, or starve.
They weren't going to starve and I already explained why the conditions weren't that good compared to the factories today. Again take a look at how life was for the average person before the Industrial Revolution and how it was after it. Capitalism made the lives of millions better, do you have an alternative system that can achieve better results?
>If they don't like regulations, why don't they move to a country that lacks regulations?
And that's exactly what's happening today. There's an excessive amount of regulations and taxes making big companies move to other more business friendly countries, thus increasing unemployment.

There's no need to regulate factories for better working conditions, it's going to happen naturally in the free market.

>but of course because the government interfered in the free market with regulations and taxes it meant fewer companies and therefore less competition
Monopolies existed precisely because of the lack of regulations preventing such monopolies.

>Capitalism managed to get millions of people out of poverty in just a century and it still does.
Yeah, after governments worldwide enacted regulations and taxes.

>Memezuela

>it's not an army,they are just heavily armed guards

>falling for the usury meme

Top kek, there's a reason every religion banned that shit

Where does this meme come from that capitalism created modern civilization when it was clearly oil and coal

>not fair!!! Gib me free stuff!
There's welfare for that. You don't need to earn the same as business leaders, i.e., people who actually do useful things.
The state of Burgers everyone...

We're living in the 21st century. Whole new sets of rules, bub. Banks are good for stimulating the economy.
Don't be a butthurt reactionary drumpfling who wants to get rid of 'muh evil banks' even though your god emperor loves 'em.

>No I don't, I'm forced.
Only if your country actually forbids emigration. You can leave any time.

>Except the store isn't forcing me to give them 50% of my income.
Neither is the government. You're consenting to paying that much by choosing to make use of that government's services. If you think their prices are unreasonable, you're free to look for a different government.

>And neither does the government
I wasn't advocating for total government control and abolition of markets. Just that the government should step in when markets are failing to meet the population's needs.

>Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there.
Right but there is no choice other than poor working conditions or starvation. Saying poor working conditions are okay because "you can always work somewhere else" doesn't work when ALL places have poor working conditions.

>Indeed it is true for business owners, hence why regulations and taxation are so bad.
No, if you can expect workers to deal with poor working conditions you can expect businesses owners to deal with taxes and regulations.

>They weren't going to starve
They would if they chose not to work. Otherwise, why would they agree to such poor working conditions?

>And that's exactly what's happening today. There's an excessive amount of regulations and taxes making big companies move to other more business friendly countries, thus increasing unemployment.
And that's how markets are supposed to work. If anyone manages to stay at the top for too long, they should be scrutinized, because that's a sign that there is a lack of meaningful competition.

Cringe

When you impose high taxes and regulations you make it difficult for the little guy to start a new business or manage to compete with big companies, thus creating a monopoly for them. But without them, there's nothing stopping a bunch of guys to open up a new company if they feel that the other ones are exploiting the workers. Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.

Everything was getting better long before governments started enacting regulations.

lmao are facts too hard for you? You call something bait because you dont understand it and make arguments like
>False, an outright lie.
that is literally impossible to translate into logic, as no rational or factual basis
dont respond, i dont want to talk to you. Mocking you is all i want to do.
no we need technology to get out of the mess we made with it. we need anarchism of course, we also need deep ecology and radical luddism. Ted and I think alot alike

Economic control of the means of production, which will only become easier for new economic systems as global society collapses, your basic anarchism focused on ecology.

>When you impose high taxes and regulations you make it difficult for the little guy to start a new business or manage to compete with big companies
That's less true when the taxes are imposed in proportion to the size or income of a company.

>Everything was getting better long before governments started enacting regulations.
You mean during the gilded age and second industrial revolution? When railroad executives were knowingly allowing their employees to get killed and mangled on the job because it was cheaper than buying brakes that actually worked? Yeah, if the free market is so great for the workers, why did any feel the need to work for companies that were literally killing them? Where were the entrepreneurs with the idea of starting a railroad that DIDN'T treat its employees as an expendable commodities? It really gives one a lot to think about, you know?

i agree
Property is theft!

Wow it's like taxes are progressive or something? With tax and labor law exemptions for small businesses.America has more small business starting up today than ever.

>But without them, there's nothing stopping a bunch of guys to open up a new company if they feel that the other ones are exploiting the workers. Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.
Without laws and regulations there's nothing stopping big corps from hiring armed forces to violently dismantle small businesses and attack striking workers.

>Those big corporations can't send in the police to stop you or make you pay taxes so either they will have to compete with you or get bankrupt.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_Strike

>That's less true when the taxes are imposed in proportion to the size or income of a company.
It's still a problem though, it creates a huge bureaucracy that will easily get corrupted. It's better to just have a low flat tax this way you avoid loopholes.
>why did any feel the need to work for companies that were literally killing them?
And yet they still worked, didn't they? Because all the other jobs available were much worse. You seem to think that the 19th century working conditions could have improved to the ones we have today in just a few weeks if the government regulated the free market. Take the example of modern sweatshops in Asia. They are horrible but if the other alternative is to work the whole day in the fields for just a bowl of rice or to resort to prostitution, then most people will of course choose to work in a sweatshop. But liberals, to show everyone how good and empathetic they are, they'll try to force the companies to close down their sweatshops. And when they close, that's a disaster for the people in these Asian countries as they'll become unemployed or get a job that's much more worse than the sweatshops.

Yes, the government is forcing you to pay taxes, therefore it is theft. Taxation is not voluntary.

>governments should step in

Every time the government 'steps in' everything goes south. 1930 is an example of that, the crisis of 08 is another example of that, not to mention the current ongoing terrible state of the world economy due to governments stepping in. Government should leave markets the fuck alone, all they do is fuck things up.

Zero facts have been posted.

You claim that capitalism is unsustainable, yet you provide zero proof. Why? Because there's no proof of capitalism being unsustainable, it has been going strong since day one.

>if one company does something really well the government must step in because that's not okay

literally fucking kill yourself so that you don't spread your retarded genes

thetimes.co.uk/article/big-brands-mcdonalds-ikea-lloyds-tiffany-unilever-dove-shun-straight-white-britain-in-their-adverts-trevor-phillips-lrrfdgtpg

there are mountains of facts
ill give you a taste
onlinelibrary.wiley.com.sci-hub.cc/doi/10.1111/1468-2427.00251/full

favaretoufabc.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/2015-steffen-et-al-the-great-acceleration-1.pdf as referenced hereecologyandsociety.org/vol12/iss1/art24/

colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/ecology/readings.htm

not only do you not have facts you have no argument either. If the conclusion that capitalism is inherently unsustainable doesn't come to you through reason you are either a mouth breathing retard or you know nothing. Im assuming the latter.
it will come to you as the world continues to melt down, which is too late if you ask me.

>taxation is theft
No more than property is theft. In mainstream economics, taxation is seen as rent rather than theft.

>le move to le shitty country because le strawman applies there XDD!!!
Venezuelan businesses are profit-based.

Yet here capitalism stands, some hundreds of years later and still going strong.

Socialism needs a decade to ruin everything.

Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.

I guess move to North Korea then.

>when your shitty system ruins lives but there's a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's still a government so it's not real capitalism so you try again and your shitty system ruins lives but there's...

Stop posting.

>Oh but they did, they chose to work there because it was better than not working there. Regulations and taxes cause more harm than low skilled jobs.
Oh yeah I guess that totally means the Triangle Shirtwaist fire was 100% okay because at least they were employed. Blanck and Harris did nothing wrong XDD!!!

>There's no need to regulate factories for better working conditions, it's going to happen naturally in the free market.
People were still working in miserable conditions in 1910, nearly a century after industrialization began in the USA. They weren't as badly treated as those in certain years in the 1870s for example, but the free market certainly wasn't taking care of everybody like it should have been.

also fyi i only linked things that i thought you would be able to understand.
all the really condemning stuff is analytical and would need to be spoonfed to you unlike this bumptious childs play ive told you to read

But that wasn't real capitalism!!!! The government still existed so it didn't count!!!

>But liberals, to show everyone how good and empathetic they are, they'll try to force the companies to close down their sweatshops
Are you literally retarded?

>Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.
>regardless of my feelings
It's not my feelings. It's the opinion of virtually all economists other than the batshit insane Mises worshipers.
>I guess move to North Korea then.
Ironically enough, North Korea is one of the only countries to abolish direct taxation where there used to be taxation. The other was communist Albania.

you did not address my argument, when presented with facts, you buried your head in the sand and let your asshole do the talking.
>Yet here capitalism stands, some hundreds of years later and still going strong.
at great expense to life on earth
>"look out,STOP! your about to drive off a cliff"
>"nonsense! wemade it this far"
>muh socialism runs everything.
yet again you make a proposition with no factual argument to accompany it. I encourage you not to try. all you would do is point to authoritarian communist states and the bad things that happened in them with no reference to modality or the geo-political-economic context and declare these happenings as proof that all socialism is bad.
i wouldn't be shocked if you couldnt even define what capitalism and socialism mean. Go ahead and give that your best shot, you can even use google if you need to.

Rent-seeking, absentee landlordism, intellectual property and all other concepts that hold illegimate power over the belongings of other people. Monopoly on currency. Consumerist culture and the obsession with accumulating wealth by all means. Bullshit jobs and work culture requiring 8 hour work days even if a lot of that time is just pretending to be working.

>non arguments

Stop posting.

So without me having to go through 4 papers on a saturday, tell me why capitalism is unsustainable and why, if it is, is it still here? One ought to think that we'd have gotten rid of capitalism by now if it was unsustainable.

What's the point of taxation when an authoritarian government controls everything anyways?

>at great expense to life on earth

The only economic system to have broughts billions of people out of poverty, making life as we know it easy as piss to live compared to before capitalism. Socialism was at great expense to life.

Yes, you're right, I could point towards the countless of failed states and the over a hundred million dead humans to prove that marxism, communism and socialism doesn't work and are inherently dangerous for mankind, but I don't even need to do that. One only has to look at any country that has adopted socialist policies to see the harm they've done and continue to do today.

>inb4 le real socialism hasn't been tried yet

>And yet they still worked, didn't they?
Because it was better than literally starving, which was the only other option. But by that logic, arbitrarily high taxation should be regarded as fully ethical, because people would rather lose 95% of their income than go to jail.

>Yes, the government is forcing you to pay taxes, therefore it is theft. Taxation is not voluntary.
The government uses force to protect property rights as well, does that mean property is theft? Besides, you agree to pay taxes by living on land that is part of a country. No different than rent, really. Rent isn't theft, it's a transaction, a mutual agreement. You agree to pay rent, and the land owner agrees to let you stay there. Same deal with taxes. You either pay taxes and enjoy the benefit of living in that country, or leave the country. It's your choice. But saying you are entitled to live in a country without complying to that country's tax policy is the equivalent of walking into a store and saying you are entitled to take stuff without paying for it.

Not an argument.

enlightnement individualist ideals + capitalism = destruction of collectivism = downfall of society

>Taxation is theft regardless of your feelings.
All right, if you want to play that game, property is theft regardless of your feelings.

>collectivism
>good

What's that 94 picture from?

>a government defending its citizens is the same as theft

u wot

Again, taxation is not voluntary. It is theft. The government forces you to give them your wealth or you'll be sent to jail. Rent is a mutual agreement that both parties agree to and can cancel at any time. If I no longer want to pay rent, I don't have to. Taxation on the other hand is forced and there are no other options.

>not an argument

Not even worth coming up with an argument to such a retarded statement. It's like you're a five year old.

>capitalism
>downfall of society

False. Stop spewing fake news.

>tell me why capitalism is unsustainable
because it treats the living world we depend on to live as an externality. It is an ecologically maladaptive economic system, just see the graph you replied to.
Capitalism could defintley last for ever if we had infinite natural resources and space to capitalize. But we dont.
, and the order that holds the planet together is breaking down. You dont under stand this, and to get you to understand i would have to teach basic ecology, move through empirical studies and theory to properly explain it, and keep doing that all the way through dynamic systems, complexity and network science. Before this post i had some hope of explaining something to you with reason, but now that i see that you didnt even get we where talking about ecological sustainability, not so much. I just cant fix stupid sorry kid.

>So without me having to go through 4 papers on a saturday, tell me why capitalism is unsustainable
Not him but prolly has to do with capitalist societies requiring infinite growth and growth being inherently unsustainable indefinitely.