Western armament >overengineered, complicated crap >gets obsolete every 5 years so it needs to be constantly upgraded to work >expensive >breaks fast >ends up in scraps fast >virtually zero demand for it by foreign armies, low export except to allied countries who are obliged to buy this crap
Soviet armament >durable, sturdy, simple, reliable >never gets obsolete, works well even after 50 years >requires only minor upgrades to run like new >cheap >extremely high demand, armies around the world compete for licence contracts >performs so well in combat that it's still used in modern warfare with little or no drawbacks
What did the Soviets get so right that rest of the world got so wrong?
What did the West do right that the rest of the Soviets got so wrong?
Ryder Anderson
>virtually zero demand for it by foreign armies
USA, UK and Germany sell a lot of military hardware, including outside of NATO.
Mason Gutierrez
>Continued use = Never gets obsolete! Bullshit. Third world armies and shite militias & terror groups use what they can get their hands on. That does not mean the shit they use never gets obsolete.
Also Western armaments also have high demand for licence contracts. It's only that you usually have to be an industrialized country to be able to produce such weapons.
Hell, that goes the same for Slavshit. You think African or Middle Eastern people manufacture Soviet stuff themselves? Its mostly Russia or China that ever does.
Brody Watson
>cheap labor relative to total economy size >low capacity to produce plastic, high capacity to produce metals >philosophy to keep it simple and not add convinces, the soldier can handle it
These combined do ensure that soviet tech is pretty reliable. You are absolutely correct to address the "never obsolete" shit, but also completely wrong to dismiss soviet arms entirely. They are in fact more durable, by design and by make.
Leo Rivera
>never gets obsolete
Lucas Richardson
Are these obsolete, or just no longer required due to the Cold War ending and nobody needing that much arms?
Liam Stewart
The armor is easily penetrated even by modern IFVs.
Landon Harris
>What did the Soviets get so right that rest of the world got so wrong?
They collapsed as a country and flooded the world with cheap arms which rose to prominence in wars in the the third world.
Likewise the Western Military Industrial complex likes to downplay just how huge and pervasive it is so it pushes the russian weapons meme.
Jacob Martin
But its still an all terrain self propelled gun, that already exists and you don't need to pay for. At worst you can use it as a mobile bunker by putting bags of dirty around it when you entrench. Its not trash.
Ryan Wright
>They collapsed as a country and flooded the world with cheap arms which rose to prominence in wars in the the third world. And what, the Angolans were using Leopards in the 1970s? >Likewise the Western Military Industrial complex likes to downplay just how huge and pervasive it is so it pushes the russian weapons meme. Thats mainly due to inflated price of western equipment, rather than volume.
Christian Ortiz
>inflated price of western equipment
It includes the high worker wage in it. Hard to outsource gun production, the locals may decide to keep the guns and throw your imperialist ass out.
Brandon Carter
>it's not trash >hundreds of them rotting away because no one wants tgem
Jayden Powell
No one needs them. Ukraine doesn't need 5000 tanks all the sudden. Or can't afford to run them anyways.
Easton Robinson
>hundreds of them rotting away because no one wants tgem Tens of thousands actually, they sell of a few hundred now and then.
Evan Smith
>needs SHALL
Brody Jones
>performs so well in combat that it's still used in modern warfare with little or no drawbacks
Since that's in ukraine it's just simply a case of them not being used. If that pic was pre-2014 it probably looks a bit different now.
Jeremiah Mitchell
Yea, yeah, I am sure you wuz kangz nigga, stay proud.
Jack Perez
>USA army still has cavalry regiments
Had no idea.
Charles Price
>If that pic was pre-2014 it probably looks a bit different now. All missing their turrets
Jonathan Myers
If you think they go into battle on horseback, you're going to be disappointed.
Jeremiah Clark
Nah, I saw its basically motorized infantry, but still. Its called cavalry.
Evan Watson
Why would they take the guns, but leave the car that carries said gun? Sounds stupid.
Aiden Anderson
In name only, same with Britain kinda. When they're doing parades they're on horseback but obviously they use tanks and armoured vehicles in actual combat.
Logan Roberts
>And what, the Angolans
You mean a country that was politically aligned with the USSR?
>Thats mainly due to inflated price of western equipment, rather than volume.
Do you have a source for that? Or are you focusing on a particular year?
If trolling, lol. If not trolling, the turrets on Soviet tanks are notorious for exploding and flying off when they get hit in combat.
Grayson Martin
>On 26 February 1991 British artillery units unleashed an hour long artillery strike on Iraqi positions. It was the greatest British artillery display since World War Two. That same night the British 7th Brigade fought a night tank battle against an Iraqi tank battalion from the Iraqi 52nd Armored Division. After ninety minutes of battle over 50 Iraqi tanks and armored personnel carriers were destroyed. >After ninety minutes of battle over 50 Iraqi tanks and armored personnel carriers were destroyed.
Out-fucking-skilled
Easton Hernandez
What was the iraqi government even hoping for? Old ass, poorly maintained tanks, constantly getting dunked by artillery and air. Why waste all those lives?
Owen Richardson
Western armament >Cutting edge technology >Constantly outdoing itself, thus needs replacing >Very expensive but very good
Soviet Armament >Cheap, proven designs, but outdated >Easy to make and use >Little effort at modernizing >Cheap and easy enough that shitty countries can afford them to gun down rebels
The Gulf War proved just how good Soviet tanks were OP
Blake Mitchell
>At worst you can use it as a mobile bunker by putting bags of dirty around it when you entrench. Its not trash. It's not WW2 anymore, that shit would just be destroyed by a missile or deep penetrating artillery.
Honestly I've no idea how a modern and symmetrical war would work, fortifications are basically useless short of deep underground bunkers.
Joseph Lopez
You are just spoiled by desert wars, where mobility is key and a jeep is worth more than an artillery piece. Things would be very, very different in a government-on-government war in "the west".
Dylan Cooper
The Iraqis actually thought that it would be impossible for the coalition forces to launch a successful attack across such a large area of desert, they thought it would be a logistical nightmare as it was extremely difficult to do in the WW2 Africa/Middle East campaign.
The problem is, they did not account for the lessons learned in that war. According to that wikipedia page, the coalition forces also had access to thermal optics which meant that when the sandstorm rolled in they could still see everything.
The technology was just superior in every way and the Iraq government was too stupid to realise it. They couldn't even flank properly because they were just getting blown to pieces by the extremely accurate artillery covering the US and UK troops.
>This technology had never before seen battle, but the results were staggering. The world's fifth largest army had been defeated in less than 96 hours.
Jackson Ramirez
Still doesn't make fortifications useful.
Air power and missiles is all that matters, people even argue tanks are obsolete now.
Samuel Long
DANGER!!! OPINIONS AHEAD!!!! Tanks were always obsolete. They were only good enough to effectively (considering their cost in resource, manpower, labor, fuel and training) int heir infancy, during WW1, as they were ahead of time and nobody could properly counter them.
>fortifications en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlov's_House This is the fortifications of the future, selling a city as expensively as possible, fighting for every house. Syria showed as much.
Jeremiah Thomas
Gosh who would have guessed as soon as actual statistics on arms sales come up you disappear
Hunter Turner
Who is (You) here? I made some posts you may consider pro-east tech, and I am still here, and I always knew about sales numbers.
Christopher Murphy
>hey were only good enough to effectively (considering their cost in resource, manpower, labor, fuel and training) int heir infancy, during WW1 I'm quite sure they were good in WW2.
Tanks are the new cavalry.
Nicholas Kelly
>They were only good enough to effectively (considering their cost in resource, manpower, labor, fuel and training) int heir infancy, during WW1, as they were ahead of time and nobody could properly counter them.
I think you've actually got this the wrong way round. Tanks in WW1 weren't actually that effective, artillery was far, FAR more effective. WW1 tanks were unreliable and expensive.
Tanks and armoured vehicles really became essential in WW2, especially in the Africa campaign and the invasion of mainland Europe towards the end.
Austin Butler
The poster in
Landon Cox
WWI tanks won the war in the west. German elastic defense was defeated with them.
Levi Reed
Oh, that one isn't me. I responded to him here explaining the price difference.
Jose Torres
>Tanks are the new cavalry.
If tanks are cavalry, we are in the WWI period.
Austin Hughes
I think its just another tankie/sovietboo I did give him the benefit of the doubt though as you did
Gavin Lewis
They take on the same role, faster, and heavy hitting
Nathaniel Cook
You still need to be at the very least some sort of industrialized country or a country able to do some sort of heavy manufacturing.
Niggasweatshops won't do unless we're just talking small arms. Anyone can do that. Heck Flips do that with Western small arms.
Nolan Miller
>le gulf war proved Soviet equipment is uselessXDDDDD how's the view on top of Mt. Stupid?
Jose Thomas
>Tanks were always obsolete. t. I've watched shite arab militias deploy them shittily and I think they're obsolete.
or
t. most wars nowadays are low intensity conflicts and guerilla shitfights and I know think they're obsolete.
Samuel Roberts
this reminds me of when my dad told me the story of how the swedish airforce border patrol brought down a russian mig. He said the pilots got bored and familiar with each other, so they started playing games after a while. One time the swedish plane dove down towards the water before swooping up. The russian plane did the same thing, but it couldn't turn up as fast so it crashed in the baltic.
Julian Brown
like dis?
Michael Howard
I assumed it was over the sea but yeah probably that sort of J-shaped maneuver
Jose Wilson
Yeah I kinda understood, just wanted to the show their fucking balls
John Nguyen
>soviet armament
I'm not rich enough to buy cheap trash.
Jaxson Foster
>Honestly I've no idea how a modern and symmetrical war would work, fortifications are basically useless short of deep underground bunkers.
Hmm hard to say. There are predicitions that regular air forces (if we assume that the war had a forerun were the sides rearmed properly) would just destroy the opposing sides industry.
Modern industries are very vulnerable and are easily knocked out when you destroy a few key components. And modern air forces have a lot of precision and firepower compared to earlier times.
So you might have a situation were the high tech armaments can't be replaced and both sides return to producing simpler weapons.
The Airforces of the world might be too optimistic though. So lets assume the opponents of our modern symmetrical warare able to keep their industries going.
>MASSIVE pool of trucks and cars (and people able to drive them) ensuring unprecedented long term mobility of the supply (all your fancy schmancy military vehicles are pretty useless if they aren't properly supplied)
>oilis of much greater importance, ensuring the flow of it is crucial even more than in WW2 >defense won't work either because ALL battles probably would be fast paced manouver battles
>fixed defenses are proabably a thing of the past >bunkers might offer a temporary area denial but bunker busters probably would be very common
Bentley Williams
>Cutting edge technology That explains why US is still using a tank design from 70s.
Nicholas Barnes
>The 9 M1A1 tanks of Eagle Troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers and 30 trucks in 23 minutes with no American losses.[16] Talk about efficiency.
Joseph Taylor
Acutally...
Since you never know when you need them. Though they're also the most gutted arm of the military for understandable reasons.
Justin Watson
>that horse's eye
Nicholas Price
FAST AS THE WIND, THE OPERATION HAS BEGUN
Austin Baker
...
Jack Jones
>simple >not over engineered hi
Hudson Campbell
Americans destroy soviet export models - soviet tech sucks. ISIS destroys Iraqi Abrams and Turk leopards - but you see those were outdated models with poorly trained crews, you can not use those examples really.
William Martinez
Is that dude civil affairs? All I can think of that would make sense if that's in-country.
Nathan Ramirez
>Soviet Armament >Durable
user what
Christian Baker
>guerillas with TOW and other ATGM missile capabilities destroy tanks not equipped to deal with these
Imagine my shock
Gabriel Evans
Dude what? I'm Russian-American, and I have a tendency to be biased toward Russian stuff because of my ethnicity, but I respect the truth. If I had to use a weapons system and I knew nothing about it other than whether it was Russian or American, I would pick the American. Actual combat performance of weapons systems doesn't support your claims. The Soviets made some good stuff, don't get me wrong. But their tanks were usually death traps with shit ergonomics, going back to WW2. Maybe this has finally changed with the Armata systems, maybe not. We've all seen how well the T-72 does in combat. Turret blown off when you so much as breathe on it, crew killed horribly. The T-90 is just a souped-up version with more armor, active defense, and a few other features. Would I rather be sitting behind Chobham armor? Fuck yes. Even the famous T-34 gets overrated sometimes. It was an ergonomic nightmare with bad-to-mediocre optics. There are some very good arguments for taking the M4 Sherman over it. You can find militaries using old Western gear too, you're just not looking hard enough. Israelis were using M60s until just a few years ago. >overengineered, complicated crap >gets obsolete every 5 years so it needs to be constantly upgraded to work If you want a modern military you have to spend on it, one way or another. There are probably no shortcuts, and if there are I don't think Russians have found them. All this "rugged reliable" Soviet stuff you love will get your soldiers killed in a real fight. "Oh boy," people say, "This old AK works after you leave it in a swamp for ten years." But so what? If your supply chain is so shit that your soldiers have to use old AKs they dug out of swamps, you're probably not going to win the war anyway unless you're an insurgent.
Eli Reyes
Of course third world dictators like buying cheap Soviet gear. But they're not designing their militaries mainly to win conventional wars. They're designing their militaries mainly to keep them in power against internal opposition. If your enemy is the equivalent of a national guard plus some angry regular citizens, riding a T-72 isn't that bad. It's just that your Soviet gear will suffer horrible loss ratios in a battle with any serious military.
Jacob White
>What are upgrades?? >Whatdya mean A1 and A2?? >What's TUSK??
David Bell
What's wrong with it? I don't know jackshit about horses
Brody Stewart
There's a good writeup of Russian generals feeling heatenings after seeing how badly Iraq got ruined.
Dominic Price
Russians also killed the bourgies and kulaks. I wish we could do that here in the west.
Joseph Wood
>virtually zero demand for it by foreign armies, low export except to allied countries who are obliged to buy this crap
Much of Latin America and Southeast Asia rides on Westernshit. Maybe with only the exception of Myanmar and Burma.
In addition you can buy westernshit off cheap from the largest licensed copier of Western Arms in the planet: South Korea. Its what everyone in Non-Commie SEA is doing.
Christopher Sanchez
What's wrong with this apart from the turbine engine and price?
>he says while his country uses a T-72 with a new welded turret and more electronics/ERA
Jason Perez
>that already exists and you don't need to pay for.
How old are you ? Real life is not like a fucking pc game.
Bentley Sanders
>fixed defenses are proabably a thing of the past
Whats a practical way to destroy underground bunkers and bomb shelters?
Zachary Taylor
If there is a parking full of tanks, I think its safe to assume that these tanks that are there exist, and that you don't need to pay for a factory to hire people and buy materials to construct them. Yes, things that exist are real. They are there. They don't need to be created if they are there. No hable ingles?
Isaac Bennett
Would like who the pilots of those soviet jets were though, very likely all of them were third world monkeys..
Juan Howard
90% arabs for these stats.
Luke Robinson
Does refurb, maintenance and crewinh not cost money?
Sebastian Watson
Refurbishing, maintaining and crewing existing tanks cost less than designing, building, maintaining, training and crewing new tanks.
Carter Murphy
Why is it that Russian-built tanks have a tendency to blow their turrets away?
Basically until a point in time, all tanks did that. After that point, people built them not to do that. But since most russian-built tanks in use today are from before that time, they still have the flat. More modern tanks wouldn't have it.
Nicholas Scott
That's actually a concern in the real world and many military vehicles are based on conversions from existent designs.
Leo Wright
>Yeah, but those rebels could never hope to destroy with a western trained crew in a western built ta-
Lucas Butler
That's sad, merkavas are cool.
Luis Brooks
Real answer: The autoloader stores ammunition in this big carousel right under the turret. If something penetrates and hits the carousel, then the turret goes flying.
Jackson Phillips
But Soviet armament still sucks
Henry Rivera
NOT
Henry Reyes
low Population + high Domestic Income = Quality high Population + low Domestic Income = Quantity
The choice of either of these models is the result of an adaptation to economic and demographic constraints.