Lets discuss Muslim Golden Age

I wonder if the problem with Muslims is Islam

Persians never did that until the Babylonians revolted right after Xerxes was coronated as the new ruler. Then he got so pissed off he literally desecrated and destroy almost all symbols of the Babylonian pantheon.

All of those ¨muslim¨ scientists were persians that arabs like to claim were muslims

>who are persian muslims

>implying they didnt convert just to not get beheaded by the arab invaders

so they were muslims, right?
i dont really see the point you are trying to make

Do you know anything about the history of Persia? I dont think so because of your statement.
Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition.
Persian people were pretty much white and euro looking until they let in a fuck lot of arabs. Some thing similar what happens in Germany today for example.

And the islamic golden age was the fruit of decade long plundering and stealing not own invention.

Yall niggers need to widen your worldview a bit or youre gonna go down.

>Arab invasions
>effecting Iranian population
Oh yeah user I'm totally sure that 50,000 Arabs made a dent in an Iranian gene pool that covered 40 million people.

they began to read the quran

No military invasion, immigration.

talk to an actual persian and hear what he tells you.

>Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition.
Absolutely not,

Zoroastrians believe the universe is a battle between eternal good (Ahura Mazda) and the eternal evil (Ahura Mainyu) and humans have to partake in this battle.

Shi'ites believe Allah is the only cosmic supreme being with no equal and no oppsite, and people have a duty to only follow His will.

Zoroastrians believe the Zoroastrian religion can and should only be practiced by the Iranian peoples

Shi'ites believe racial and ethnic groups of all kinds can practice Shi'ite Islam

Shi'ite Islam evolved in the Arabic peninsula and Shi'ites did not come into contact with Zoroastrians until the sect was already well established.

>Persian people were pretty much white and euro looking

>white
meme term made up by Americans because they have no cultural or historical heritage, did you mean pale skinned? Then yes, they still are.

>euro looking
Yes, they still are

>until they let in a fuck lot of arabs
The Iranian genetic stock was virtually untouched by Arab invasions, what is a few thousand Arabs in the midst of several million Iranians?

>Some thing similar what happens in Germany today for example.
Germany has plundering and stealing not own invention.
Nope most Islamic inventions were developed solely by Muslims in their Islamic countries.

This is Veeky Forums not /pol/, get your facts right

I've had a turkish bloke telling me a similar story, it's just an elite thing

>immigration
Neither Arabs nor Turks had any affect on sedentary Iranian populations or genetics, you moron. Turks in particular were constantly genetically assimilated by their subject cultures and peoples.

And Arabs never had any major mass migrations either that would affect sedentary urban populations of Iranians in Iran, the Caucasus, or Central Asia. Stop talking out of your ass.
>Zoroastrians believe the universe is a battle between eternal good and eternal evil.
Yes.
But this doesn't change the fact there are sects of Zoroastrianism just as there are of Christanity and Islam. Zurvanism being one of them. Mazdakism another with different or altered tales of cosmology and theology.
>Zoroastrians believe the Zoroastrian religion can and should only be practiced by the Iranian peoples.
Wrong.

Rest of your post is too stupid to bother rebutting.

>talk to an actual persian
I have, I also know most modern anthropologists, geneticists, and historians/academics can tell you that the Arabs and Turks had no real influence or impact on Iranian people genetically. Modern day Iranians are virtually the same as their ancestors from the Iron Age and before.

The worst factor on Iranian genes was Mongol massacres of Iranian peoples in Central Asia, where places like Merv and Samarkand and their surrounding towns and villages were virtually depopulated by Mongol killings. That lead into Turkics having a far easier time settling and taking over the area when most of the survivors are now grouped in Afghanistan, Tajikistan, parts of northwestern Pakistan, and Uzbekistan.

>Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition
What the fuck, and Iranians didn't invent shia Islam

>Islam requires you to pray five times a day
>Zoroastiranism requires you to pray five times a day
>Islam preaches about physical purity and the importance of cleansing oneself with purified water
>Zoroastrianism preaches about physical purity and the importance of cleansing oneself with purified water
Why does Islam rip off Zoroastrianism and Judaism to a lesser extent, so much?

>Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition.

Fucking brainlet leave this board

Shias pray thrice a day

>there are sects of Zoroastrianism

And? Tell me any sect of Zoroastrianism that is even remotely close to Shi'ite Islam in terms of theology and tradition.

>Wrong.

Nope, search in any place where there are a significant number of Zoroastrians and they will tell you.

I usually loathe (F)ersians but you're retarded as shit and you're probably an amerimutt subhuman as well

>Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition.

>brainlets actually believe this

>And?
You are retarded.
>Tell me any sect of Zoroastrianism that is remotely close to Shii'ite Islam.
I never made that claim, retard.
>Nope
Yep, google it you troglodyte. There are no texts, statements, quotations, or anything else in the Avesta, Gathas, or any other Zoroastrian scripture that says Zoroastrianism is solely for Iranians.

>Shia is basically Zororastrism with a bit of islamic tradition.

>Tell me any sect of Zoroastrianism that is remotely close to Shii'ite Islam.

>I never made that claim, retard.

>Shia is basically Zoroastrianism with a bit of Islamic tradition.
Yeah, I never said that you moron. That was a different user, are you mentally handicapped by chance or reading comprehension just isn't a skill you are familiar with?

they ran out of greeks and persians

I was just reading about this
thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-the-arabic-world-turned-away-from-science

I wrote my post () in reply to (), why would you butt in with () if you're not making a counter argument?

Like, forgive me for jumping to conclusions or whatever, but if you're replying to my post I think it's perfectly acceptable to assume you were making a counterargument

Because your statements are retarded, you fucking dip-shit. You made a patently false argument about Zoroastrianism so of course I'm going to butt in, you autist. Its funny how I make no mention in my posts about Shia Islam basically being Zoroastrianism with being Muslim and only specifically address bullshit like "you have to be Iranian to be Zoroastrian" or the nonsense that there are no supreme deities like Zurvan.

Pay attention to context.

>Lets discuss Muslim Golden Age.
>What went wrong?

Successor of Mohammed

>Zoroastrians believe the universe is
All of this seemingly fundamental stuff can be changed. Within Christianity there are sects that negate free will, some that see Trinity as four modes of God rather than three distinct persons. Within Islam there's sects that also negate free will, some that see God as not transcendent, but rather a panentheistic entity. Etc.

>Zoroastrians believe the Zoroastrian religion can and should only be practiced by the Iranian peoples
Today. But during the Sassanid era they went to great lengths to convert Christians, Armenians and inhabitants of the Caucasian realms like Albania or Iberia.

>Shi'ite Islam evolved in the Arabic peninsula and Shi'ites did not come into contact with Zoroastrians until the sect was already well established.
Shi'ite doctrine only became somewhat concrete after Jafar as-Sadiq's imamate, when he formulated such key doctrines as Imam's infallibility or succession. He lived precisely in the era when the Caliphate's center of gravity moved into Ajami Iraq and Khorasan. One of his key allies and the leader of the Abbasid uprising was the Persian Abu Muslim.

There were plenty of syncretistic Zoroastrian-Shi'a movements like Qarmatians or Khuramiyya. The Zoroastrian 8th century cleric Sunpad started an uprising in the name of aforementioned Abu Muslim. The Qarmatians at one point elected an Iranian to be their leader who ordered them to worship fire and curse the Prophet Muhammad.

Regardless, the claim is that Shi'ism is descended from Zoroastrianism, so you should ask about sects of Shi'ism that are similar to Zoroastrianism, not the other way around. And of there's plenty.

Even in mainline Twelver Shi'a traditions you have the legends of Piruz Nahavandi, of Hussein marrying Shah Yazdgerd III's daughter and receiving his xvarenah. The Ashura traditions correspond 1:1 to central Asian Mazdaic traditions, only it's Hussein's innocent, treacherous death being remembered instead of Siavash's.

I forget their names, but sometime during the Caliphate there was a conflict between two people. One guy said only things in the Koran needed to be known. the other guy said they should study everything outside the koran. the first guy won. then he basically said the koran already explains everything perfectly and there was no need for studying.

>Today.
No, even today there are active communities of Zoroastrians who accept converts. Only the Parsees/Parsi don't allow them and that's not because of religious doctrine but because of the agreement they made with the local Indian rulers when they migrated there.

And obviously I don't claim that Shi'a Islam, especially Twelverism is JUST Zoroastrianism, but there's huge influences and connections between them. Moreso in the fringe groups that since died out.

Also, I just remembered two more connections - the figure of Saoshyant, while it appears in Younger Avesta (not the Gathas though) was only properly fleshed out during the Middle Ages, and it's believed that the figure of Imam al-Mahdi was an influence on it.

The philosopher Shahab ad-Din Suhrawardi (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahab_al-Din_Yahya_ibn_Habash_Suhrawardi, not to be confused with the Sufi teacher Shahab ad-Din Suhrawardi) explicitly tried to revive pre-Islamic thought which in his interpretation wasn't incompatible with Islam.

Supposedly actual Iranian Zoroastrians will tell you that if God wants people to convert en masse, he'll send a prophet. Otherwise you should follow your own creed and be a good person. Haven't spoken to any though.

>Supposedly actual Iranian Zoroastrians will tell you that if God wants people to convert en masse, he'll send a prophet.
I don't believe one word of this.

...

*blocks your renaissance*

youtube.com/watch?v=rwaJ7j2BO5g

Well it's not like they CAN convert people in Iran, aside from the occasional Jew, Assyrian or Armenian, right?

>Abbasid chaliphate

it was a persian golden age

>MUSLIM
>GOLDEN
>AGE

Its not like they aren't converting and accepting converts in the West, especially in the UK and US. And in Iran, more Iranians are converting to Christianity then Zoroastrianism.

Sunni revival

>
>
>

/pol/ ladies and gentlemen

The Arab invaders permited the practice of Zoroastrianism, most of the Persian intellectuals from that period were devout Muslims

Literally not a single one of the statements you made are true. Please, kill yourself

All of the Arabs I met were much whiter and Euro-looking than the Persians I met.

Most of the Persian scientists, writers and philosophers from the Islamic Golden Age were Sunnis.

this

>Muslim golden age
You mean Persian age

>I hate muslims so I will deny history because it triggers me

unironically this

They ran out of greek books to translate

>we wuz persians and shiet
What is wrong with you /pol/tards?

>americans

Most of them were actually more Sufist then bound by orthodox Islamic dogma to do what they did, so that's a bit of a stretch.

>Cordoba gets reconquista'd
>Baghdad gets mongol'd
I wonder what happened?

Why? He right though...

You should, not only they destroyed Arabic civilization they also destroyed Chinese civilization, Song dynasty is the last Chinese Empire that can create fine art, they already got night market, they publicly sell WHITE SUGAR and candies at the street which is super rare in medieval times

...

>Many historical accounts detailed the cruelties of the Mongol conquerors.

>The Grand Library of Baghdad, containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river and red from the blood of the scientists and philosophers killed.
>Citizens attempted to flee, but were intercepted by Mongol soldiers who killed in abundance, sparing neither women nor children, Wassaf claims the loss of life was several hundred thousand. Ian Frazier says estimates of the death toll have ranged from 200,000 to a million.
>The House of Wisdom was burned down.
>The Mongols looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals. Grand buildings that had been the work of generations were burned to the ground.
>The caliph Al-Musta'sim was captured and forced to watch as his citizens were murdered and his treasury plundered. According to most accounts, the caliph was killed by trampling. The Mongols rolled the caliph up in a rug, and rode their horses over him, as they believed that the earth would be offended if it were touched by royal blood.
>Hulagu had to move his camp upwind of the city, due to the stench of decay and blood from the ruined city.
>Baghdad was a depopulated, ruined city for several centuries and only retained it's pre-1258 population in the 20th century.
>historians believe that the Mongol invasion destroyed much of the irrigation infrastructure that had sustained Mesopotamia for many millennia, Canals were cut as a military tactic and never repaired, So many people died or fled that neither the labor nor the organization were sufficient to maintain the canal system, It broke down or silted up.
Man thank the Chinks for Gunpowder. No longer we have to fear the Steppenigger.

>40 million people
Why do people have such distorted views of historical population? The population of Persia in the year 1900 was around 7 million. That was equal to the population of Belgium!

>ITT: (F)ersian inferiority complex

1. Black Death hits the Middle East. Christians and Muslims both blame "miasma" but while Europeans flip out and do anything they can to avoid the plague, a lot of Middle Easterners decide that they're only going to die if God wants them too. This fatalistic attitude makes it easier for fundamentalism to take hold over the next few hundred years. While Europeans changed their perception of the world with the Plague, the Middle East went backwards.
2. They got poorer because of A) Mongol Invasions and B) the decline of the Silk Road and India Ocean trading routes after the Spanish and Portuguese rounded the Cape and started throwing their weight around. Nations like the Ottoman Empire had it good for a long time and didn't see the need to change along with the rest of the world.
3. Wahhabism gives Islam terminal cancer.

it's a meme
it was just the Caliphate gorgin itself in the plunder of Byzantium and Persia
as soon as the plunder stoped and forcebully converted intellectuals ended it descended to the shithole that islam is

>what went wrong

Ashariyya vs Mutazila

One was muh ebin mysticism you can't know nothing except by praying to God, whirl dances everyday.

The other one was about rationalism, should faith be subjected to reason?

The Ashariyya philosophers responded with shitloads of books like "The incoherency of the incoherency of the incoherency...". Those fags won by shitposting their opponents into oblivion.

The "islamic golden age", or rather the "Usual Persian Routine" came to a halt way before the Mongol invasion. Actually one could argue that after the caliphate civil wars of the 10th century, the White Death of the Saracens adding to the mayhem by making the Empire strike back, and the shift of the capital from Baghdad to Samarra (and the chaos that ensued), the contribution to scientific innovation and discovery of the Persian and Egyptian scholars ground down to a trickle.

The Jews, Muslims and Christians in Al Andalus were another matter, but their output was comparable to what was being done in the non Islamic west.

Finally during the time of the"golden age", there was still collaboration in the fields of science between the Romans and the Baghdad caliphates. Calling it a purely "islamic golden age" is a misnomer, though it could be argued by some that the peace in the caliphate and the mentality of islamic scholarship had a positive impact in some respects on the perpetuation of a pre islamic scientific method.

It's not, especially when many of them literally wrote the books on Sunni Islam.

>muslim
>golden
>age

literally a meme made up by enlightenment cucks who were just mad at Christianity. Like when a girl dates some loser just to get back at her ex

>"Usual Persian Routine"
Except nothing the Sassanids or Parthians did even remotely compared to the output of the Abbasid and Samanid eras.

It really triggers me that mongols are allowed to worship him like some sort of hero
We should subjugate them and make them apologize for warcrimes like we did with Germans

True, it was a Persian scientific golden age then, but I still consider calling it "Islamic" is as much of a misnomer as calling the Renaissance a "Christian" Golden Age, despite the considerable influence of the Church.

>euro looking
>Yes, they still are

Except it wasn't just a Persian one, it was very obviously done with the influence and impetus of a new Islamic order. The reason we can't say the Renaissance was simply Christian is because the Church had existed for centuries in Italy. Finally there are a great many non-Persian contributors to culture and philosophy.

Can I have some pictures of wise muslim scientists? Need it for a project

Were Iberia and Iran connected then? No? Read your history

Does the mongols are the german of the east ?

...

>Shitposting made a civilization go backward.

t. Dumbass

>As of 2015, over 1.7 billion or about 23% of the world population are Muslims

>Muslim Golden Age
Is it now?

>empty metropolis built in western style, with western engineers, promoting a western life style and paid for money gotten from selling raw materials to the west
>muslim

>Cordoba gets reconquista'd
They had it coming.

This and inbreeding go hand in hand. Centuries of 1st cousin marriage has caused some pretty terrifying effects on ye old IQ

Yep. Mongolboos disgust me even more than Vikingboos. They worship some of the most useless humans who ever lived, a group whose existence was a huge net loss for humanity.

>kill enough Chinese and Arabs that European culture comes to dominate the planet
>not intrinsically good

Sufism is not incompatible with either sunni or shia islam. There's sunni sufism and shia sufism. Of course the most orthodox clergymen don't get along with the less heterodox sufis, but the same can be said for example about the catholic church and some monks. Jesuits are not less catholic for having different ideas.

...

Would probably have happened anyway... and if it didn't, it would have been because the Chinese or Arabs had the Scientific Revolution instead of Europe, in which case their cultures would probably have followed a similar trajectory to Europe's, so who cares.

I'm like 90% sure that if the Arab or Chinese worlds became more powerful than Europe, the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions wouldn't have happened.

Also, the Mongols spread the plague to Europe which helped to create the conditions for the Enlightenment.