Did the katana have a practical purpose on the battlefield?

Chinese is a dog shit language

Would you like to cite relevant passages or show examples rather than just name drop?

But fair enough, saying no change in morphology was probably a huge over reach. That said the Japanese have long attributed innovations in warfare to the Mongolian invasion that modern historians like Thomas Conlan dismiss as ahistorical

At the very least I dont know of any katana size and length swords circa 1300,

Like in Europe, pole weapons were more effective for general use.

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: it was a sidearm, used frequently in self defense or in single combat, but in a close-quarters clash it would serve you better than a spear or bow which were the mainstay weapons of Japanese armies for centuries.

Yeah. Killing people, you stupid fuck.

found the jap

The nodachi I heard was a great counter to spears or naginata, and in some cases even allowed for better mobility due to the the light weight of the extended length. As opposed to a bastard sword or claymore in Europe that weighed much more the nodachi had it's disadvantages but it made up with the light weight and mobilty.

>As opposed to a bastard sword or claymore in Europe that weighed much more
A nodachi weighs around four and a half pounds
A "bastard sword" (longsword) weighs around two and a half pounds
A Claymore weighs around six pounds

So not a massive difference, though a couple of extra pounds do make a lot of difference when you have to lug a thing around for hours so you could be right

katana (刀)means sword. You are asking if swords have a practical purpose on the battlefield. The answer is yes.

Nodachi, claymore, and bastard sword are all 刀.

I would translate 刀 as sabre rather than sword, as the term specifically describes single-edged weapons. Sword would be 剣.

...

If your spear broke, you challenged someone to a duel, or were in close quarters, perhaps.

CHI CHO XO XO FER CHOU HONG

It did.

Jap originally design Katana because he want to reduce population of Japan.

This is why Katana useless in modern age
Katana need two hands to operate and reduce population
Modern Jap has figured out to treduce population with one hand, by sit in bedroom and masturbate hikkimori and not get girlfriend because he ugly Jap

Jap originally design Katana so strike fear into western heart

Now, he just make porn video, and loud squeel of ugly Jap woman give weaboo westener fear fear that his mother can hear porn play

Katana most pointless weapon in world, most pointless other than 'Penis shrinking ray' shot at Jap who dick already so small. Why you keep brag on your fucking shit weapon? Nobody impressed.

Broken English shit posting is the best.

No, it was used as a jumping road it stuck in The terrain fine and was used for that during ceremonial games The whole muh stringest sword is a popular mid concepiton like Vikings wearing horned helmets

Sinnic languages are pretty hard on the old soundholes

Yes it did. Katanas were famed for their ability to cut with forgiveness due to their relatively large cutting wedge. The Ming soldiers who encountered Wokou often adopted the sword pattern for their own. Japanese swords were most often made from relatively slag ridden iron, but were praised by their artisan ship which Chinese lacked in due to financial struggles of the late Ming Dynasty. Koreans militia would also pick up swords from dead Ashigarus during the Imjin War, but often grounded down the five sided cross section for a more indefinite three side triangle.

Katanas may be a side arm, but they are several techniques in which could repel spear thrusts and attack armoured opponents.

Note that Majority of the Chinese troops were often under armoured, wearing only turbans and studded gambeson. A quick cut to the wrist or a thrust to the thigh will immediately disable an opponent and may lead to serious infection.

>cut with forgiveness
youtube.com/watch?v=1s0dRcdyizU
"If you don't make the blade your bitch, the blade will make you its bitch." - Mitsubishi Nintendo

I hope you aren't implying a rat tail tang sword is able to match an undefeatable folded one gorillion times, jewel grade tamahagane steel, golden sea god ray skin wrapped, loli pantyhose corded Katana.

In all seriousness, Katanas might chip easily compared to other swords but their cross sections and hard edge were quite good.

>Note that Majority of the Chinese troops were often under armoured, wearing only turbans and studded gambeson.
What nonsense. Ming soldiers were as well armored if not more armored than an ashigaru.

The most common form of armor was a sleeveless,front opening thigh length armor made from cotton or brigandine. Regional variations have capped/armored sleeves,longer coats,vambraces with mail,lamellar,leather and paper seeing usage as well.

Helmets include kettle,cabbaset or bowl shaped metal helmets with cloth or metal aventails as well as local helmets made from rattan or bamboo.

That''s some Dynasty Warriors shit right there.

Brigandine only existed for Cavarly troops and officers, there are virtually little to no proof of infantry wearing anything other than lamellar or cotton in the first place.

Kettle helmets? I've only seen depictions of Ming officers wearing them.

When you have hundreds of thousands of troops in reserve for banditry and common pirate attacks, it's almost impossible Perhaps the Northern Cavarly Brigade near Beijing might be armoured, but for rest of China, peasants and farmers alike could barely afford much.

In comparison to Late Song and Ashigaru, often equipped with steel cuirlasses and a hard hat, paired with swords and a pike, Ming soldiers were horrible under armoured.

Mail was again, reserved for high nobles who could afford a coat of butted mail at their leasure.

Lamellar might have been common place for Late Song Dynasty Infantry but were virtually none existant for Ming era troops. Again, lamellar is only depicted on officers on horses.

Pic related are Southern troops from the scroll, Wako Zukan. Note these men are NOT wearing Brigandine. They are wearing a treated studded jacket. Ming Brigandine was often restricted to a chest piece with mirror armour attached to it.

...

>Comparing ad-hoc units raised in defense of the coastal settlements during the pirate wars to the standing Ming Army like the Northern Garrison.

I guess the answer of armor is more on who's supplying the troopers at the time. No shit the Southern forces raised by Qi Jiguang among peasants were largely unarmored. Seemed to not matter anyways since he saw off the pirates.

Did they really use studded jackets?

I don't know shit about Chinese history, but in the context of Europe, there was no such thing as studded armour. The studs were attachment points for metal plates beneath the cloth or leather, and my intuition tells me this would be the case for Chinese armour too, as just adding studs to a garment really doesn't help much in terms of protection. This would mean that the blokes in that image would be essentially wearing a form of brigandine.

The southern forces you speak of played an extensive role of restoring security all over China as well as achieving missions in multiple pitched battles in the Imjin Wars.

Most note worthy units such as the Lang Bing , Tu Bing, Chi Kung troops wore similar armour to the pic above.

I was comparing the lack of armour worn by the Chinese in comparison to previous dynasty and Japanese soldiers, more so then the northern brigade.

They're more comparable to buff coats or gambesons if you're seeking a European comparison.

Except in robey form.

As most anons have stated the Katana wasn't a primary weapon used on the battlefield, although a okatana may have been used on horseback in cav charges though it wasn't ideal.

The use of a Katana is duelest weapon and it had been that way since about circa 1450s. The popularization the the Katana of course was during the Edo period where large scale battles were not particularly wages and many samurai were "unemployed" which brought out the duelest trying to seek fame or to entertain courts.

I want to be your friend irl.

As a rule a tool used in warfare most probably had some use otherwise it wouldn't be used.

How do you come up with such witty replies?

It's that good old fashioned Korean wit

Only when bows and spears/naganata were gone/broken.

nothin personell kid

Nodachi are a type of katana I thought

They're both swords of similar shape, but the similarity ends there. Katanas are pretty dinky little swords, while Nodachi are genuinely large.

野太刀 is just fat katana used in the field.

didnt katana just become the word and character for sword though?

If we are using historically accurate terminology it is not.

Both are types of Nihonto, and they share certain morphological similarities but they are not the same

Katana was necessary for cutting heads after they killed the enemy. Samurais were rewarded by the numbers of enemy heads they had.

usually the shorter blade was used for that.

He meant that it was used to carry heads.

Yes. You can stab and slash enemies with it.

Yes, swords are used to cut and stab other soldiers.

Not really.

>Brigandine only existed for Cavarly troops and officers, there are virtually little to no proof of infantry wearing anything other than lamellar or cotton in the first place.
No. Brigandine was the most common form of armor,even the hereditary garrisons had access to it.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/03/cotton-and-brigandine-armour-of-ming.html

>Kettle helmets? I've only seen depictions of Ming officers wearing them.
Here's section of a painted mural from the Temple of the Fire gods,soldiers are depicted in two piece armors with kettle helmets. There are plenty of other woodblock prints I could link as well.

>When you have hundreds of thousands of troops in reserve for banditry and common pirate attacks, it's almost impossible Perhaps the Northern Cavarly Brigade near Beijing might be armoured, but for rest of China, peasants and farmers alike could barely afford much.
The northern border garrisons consisted of 500,000-600,000 soldiers derived from the hereditary garrisons and mercenaries.

>In comparison to Late Song and Ashigaru, often equipped with steel cuirlasses and a hard hat, paired with swords and a pike, Ming soldiers were horrible under armoured.
Given the sheer size of the Ming empire there was no average,there were militias that wore nothing more than a cloth surcoat to mounted infantry/cavalry decked out with bowl helmets with aventails,manica esque armguards and shin length brigandine.

>Mail was again, reserved for high nobles who could afford a coat of butted mail at their leasure.
You have individuals such as Tang Shunzhi that noted the border garrisons used mail extensively,not just for officers.

>Lamellar might have been common place for Late Song Dynasty Infantry but were virtually none existant for Ming era troops. Again, lamellar is only depicted on officers on horses.
Not necessarily,Si Zhen San Guan Zhi notes that Liao garrison used lamellar in particular.

>Pic related are Southern troops from the scroll, Wako Zukan. Note these men are NOT wearing Brigandine.
As Wako Zukan and Wokou Tujuan are sister scrolls,one has studded paper while the other has brigandine. There are even Lang Bing with sleeved paper armor and rattan helmets.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/04/famous-military-unit-lang-bing.html

>Ming Brigandine was often restricted to a chest piece with mirror armour attached to it.
Ming brigandine can be anything from waistcoat,waistcoat and faulds,thigh/knee/shin length or sleeved variants.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/06/scale-and-lamellar-armours-of-ming.html

>The southern forces you speak of played an extensive role of restoring security all over China as well as achieving missions in multiple pitched battles in the Imjin Wars.
They may have served as mercenaries(especially artillerymen) in the north but they were completely dwarfed by local troops. The southern soldiers(mix of ex Qi Jiguang soldier and Zhejiang mercenaries) that served in the first part of the Imjin War consisted of 3,600 infantry out of 38,000-40,000 total (majority mounted infantry/cavalry).

>Most note worthy units such as the Lang Bing , Tu Bing, Chi Kung troops wore similar armour to the pic above.
They can wear anything from a cloth surcoat to sleeved armors. Armors include sleeved/studded/scale paper,lacquered leather,sleeved leather(worn on top of paper) and shorter forms of brigandine/cotton.

>I was comparing the lack of armour worn by the Chinese in comparison to previous dynasty and Japanese soldiers, more so then the northern brigade.
The brigandine waistcoat was comparable to the Liang Dang Jia. Ming cavalry replaced the cataphract pauldrons/vambraces with manica esque armguards.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2016/06/scale-and-lamellar-armours-of-ming.html

When compared to an ashigaru,some advantages of Ming armors are armored aventails/sleeves or even capped sleeves(armpit protection) and length. Disadvantages are the lack of hand/foot protection as well as some variants being sleeveless.

Nice quads. They are comparable to the European coat of plates/brigandine.

I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.
Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.
Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.
Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen. This is a fact and you can't deny it.

May I ask, who was your sword maker? What is the cheapest, yet decent quality sword you could recommend? I certainly am not prepared to spend 20,000 dollars and the yen equivalent, now.

Yes, similar designs to the katana cropped up all over the world and were popular with cavalry, the saber, kilij, shamshir and scimmitar. The curve improves the physical properties of the sword.

Your responding to a copypasta

>Brigandine was the most common form of armour.
No the link says it's the most common form of armour worn. It doesn't mean it was worn by everyone. The link doesn't even specify a reference. What's a hereditary garrison?

>Temple of the Fire Gods.
Seems like a religious symbol. Not what a common soldier would wear. Link would be appreciated.

500,000-600,000? Really? I would like to see a link to that as well. Most Chinese people tell me it was a lot lower due to the sheer logistical difficulties in maintaining such size.

>mounted infantry/cavarly
Aren't cavarly mounted Infantry, also I was referring to Ming infantry being lightly clad, not cavarly.

>Tang Shunzhi
Where do you get your information from? Are there English copies?

>They can wear anything from a cloth surcoat to sleeved armors. Armors include sleeved/studded/scale paper,lacquered leather,sleeved leather(worn on top of paper) and shorter forms of brigandine/cotton.
Well of course. But they didn't.

>Nice quads. They are comparable to the European coat of plates/brigandine.

Those are studded linen I'm pretty sure. More like aketons.

I still think Chinese troops are still comparitively under armoured. Ashigaru had iron cuirlasses with brimmed iron hats. They were almost European standards in terms of armour.
doesn't mean the Ming were any less effective. Just saying they were lightly clad.

If you can link a reference noting the arms and armour of these "heridatary" troops, ill admit I was completely wrong.

>What's a hereditary garrison?
Wei-suo(guard and battalion) garrisons,modeled after the Eastern Han tuntian/Tang fubing with the organization of Yuan tumens.

>Seems like a religious symbol. Not what a common soldier would wear. Link would be appreciated.
Religious iconography deals with mountain pattern not two piece,sleeveless armors. The Baoning temple murals are a good example.

The Temple of the Fire gods was consecrated after Yongle became Emperor,though there's no definite date for the murals.
blog.sina.com.cn/s/

blog_550498d90102ux0u.html

Here's a depiction of soldiers from a Ming print of Water Margin.

>Troop numbers
Troops numbers are taken from a modern research article Bian Zhen Liang Xiang Ming Dai Zhong Hou Qi De Bian Fang Jing Fei Yu Guo Jia Cai Zheng Wei Ji,1531-1602 which quotes primary sources such as Huang Ming Jiu Bian Kao,Wan Li Kuai Ji Lu and Wu Bei Zhi.

The lowest headcount being 371,374 in 1531 and the highest 686,523 in 1582.
project.ncnu.edu.tw

/jms/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/Pt28.pdf

>Where do you get your information from?
From the text Wu Bian,written by Tang Shunzhi.

>Are there English copies?
Not to my knowledge.

>Well of course. But they didn't.
You are cherrypicking two paintings to represent the entirety of Southern China when there are primary sources such as Lian Bing Shi Ji and Wu Bei Yao Lue that recommends equipping infantry with rattan helmets and paper/leather armor.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/02/paper-armour-of-ming-dynasty.html

Apologies for the broken links,Veeky Forums wasn't letting me post them in its entirety.

>Aren't cavarly mounted Infantry, also I was referring to Ming infantry being lightly clad, not cavarly.
I referenced cavalrymen as the border garrisons had infantry that wore similar armors(sans segmented armguards).

>If you can link a reference noting the arms and armour of these "heridatary" troops, ill admit I was completely wrong.
I've found some translated passages from Da Ming Hui Dian. Pages 281/284
books.google.com/books?id=TH0LAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA292&source#v=onepage&q&f=false

The 1374 entry corresponds to passage 7
The 1383 entry corresponds to passage 8
The 1496 entry corresponds to passages 11/12
The 1503 entry corresponds to passage 13
Note that the last entry doesn't make it clear whether this is cowhide leather armor or some sort of leather brigandine.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/11/leather-armour-of-ming-dynasty.html
ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=428765

The 1376 entry corresponds to passage 147
The 1435 entry is a translation of passage 148 of the capital garrisons.
ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=631350

From the earliest entries,early Ming garrisons had Song lamellars with the exception of coastal garrisons who were ordered to use black lacquered lamellar.

By 1496,the capital garrison switched to blue brigandine with military manuals postdating this period opting for surcoat based armors.

Here are some helmets and armors from the military manual Bing Lu,though the accompanying text doesn't label them. By the the mid-Ming the Zhaojia form of armors was predominant.

Wu Bei Zhi has larger images of helmets.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/07/ming-helmets-from-military-treatise-wu.html

>Helmets
1. Some sort of rattan helmet?
2. Lamellar kettle helmet
3. Bowl helmet with brigandine aventails
4. Bowl helmet with scale aventails
5. Bowl helmet with lamellar aventails

>Armors
1. Sleeved brigandine
2. Sleeveless brigandine
3. Sleeveless brigandine/lamellar
4. Sleeveless lamellar/brigandine
5. Sleeveless lamellar

How would a nodachi be swung on horseback?

The Japanese influenced Changdao was always used dismounted or on foot.

My sides

Weren't the katanas back then shorter than they are today?

Depends on the period.

Early Japanese swords were three or four feet. by the sengoku there were short katana carried by foot soldiers in closed ranks and long nodachi and tachi used by officers and duelists. Shorter swords were encoded into Edo period law in order to keep samurai under control

They controlled the horse with their legs just like they did when using a bow.

I think a few schools have written teachings on it but no one practices it today

kys

Not even trying

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

It was used after a samurai ran out of rifle ammo

>Both are types of Nihonto
日本刀 just means Japanese sword.

That is correct, and with the exceptions of ancient swords and one offs most Japanese swords share some basic characteristics, such as a single edged curved blade, and in most cases a laminated design.

Yep I was in the wrong. This is absolutely fantastic. Thanks for the links.

By the way, do you think the Ming military generally got worse during the Wanli Emperor or did it remain constant?

>By the way, do you think the Ming military generally got worse during the Wanli Emperor or did it remain constant?
Check out the Swope's article
books.google.com/books?id=vgkkDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT23&lpg=PT23&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

The first half of Wanli's reign was a rejuvenation of military might,the Ming were able to defeat the Oirats on multiple occasions as well Jurchens,Japanese and rebellious natives from the southwest.

It wasn't until the Tianqi Emperor that the court started losing control of the decentralized hereditary military families(Swope compares it to Samurai from the late Heian) from Liaodong. Though Wanli going on strike doesn't help either.

i love katana

its disturbing that people really think that some faggot wielding katana could challenge anyone wielding random european sword made of superior resources

There's next to no shitpost. Am I fucking dreaming.

Came here to post this.

Do you think that a katana is just going to fall apart he moment in touches European steel? it might get chipped more easier the level of skill is far more important.

Nice pasta. I'll leave this here for you.

if I'm not mistaken, swords that size in Japan were used to counter cavalry. I honestly don't remember where I read that, but I also remember reading somewhere that curved swords that large in Japan are either a myth or there is so little record on them to really know. take my words with salt, for I lack sources.

There are plenty of records of very long swords being used in Japan. most early swords were 3 or 4 feet and ones as tall or taller than the user are not unheard of