Who has a better historical claim on Alexander the Great? Greeks or Macedonians...

Who has a better historical claim on Alexander the Great? Greeks or Macedonians? I mean it was called the Macedonian empire.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_people
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Turks

Nice digits

Neither. There is no ethnic relationship between modern Greeks/Macedonians and their counterparts from antiquity.

Romans since they conquered three of Alexander's successor states. Greeks, Macedonians, Turks etc are all irrelevant

Finland.

Modern day """Macedonians""" are just LARPing Slavs. They speak Bulgarian, there is literally nothing Macedonian about them.

America

Unironically this.

There is no such ethnicity as Slavic. This is merely a language group, just like Latin or Arabic. While our Macedonian language is part of the Slavic family of languages, our ethnicity was, is, and always will be Macedonian. There is physically no such thing as Slavic blood. Closer to the truth is that these Bulgarians speak a form of Macedonian, and not the other way around. The modern meaning of Bulgarian was merely to denote church affiliation, just as Greek was. Hence the overnight bulgarization/hellinization of the Macedonian people in the 19th century. You are obviously a foreigner to Macedonia and Macedonians, and it's clear you have a political agenda. You won't be taken seriously as your aim is blatant.

Better to research your own history instead of meddling with history that is foreign to you.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_people
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language

>The modern meaning of Bulgarian was merely to denote church affiliation, just as Greek was
>Just as Greek was

>speak Bulgarian
>1/4 Albanian
>located in what were Thracian tribal lands north of the Kingdom of Macedonia
>eat random mixed up goulashy hill peasant type foods typical of slavs everywhere
>look like Ottoman rapebabies
>landlocked
>can't reclaim their supposed ancestral lands from Greece despite them being heavily weakened by debt
>actual Macedonians in Greece want to remain Greek
>waste quints
>neolithic L2a2 slav haplotypes not E3b1 civilizers
You know, all of this would be ok if you just came to peace with the history you had no control over, accept what fate has given you and looked forward instead. Sad, people have such fragile egos.

>neglecting migration
Slavic people settling in
Bulgarian people settling in

>neglecting occupation
Byzantine Empire
First Bulgarian Empire
Latin Empire
Ottoman Empire

You are in no way related to Ancient Macedonians. And by that I mean both ethnically and historically. You are a product of centuries, even millennia of assimilation under various kingdoms and empires. Don't worry though, you're far from the only ones. In fact, the same goes for modern day Greeks and Bulgarians.

>I2a2 slav
>predates indo-europeans, let alone slavic, migrations
seems legit

FYROM would be much better off as a part of Bulgaria.

You fags are both incorrect. In this case genetics don't matter. Macedonians don't give a fuck about Alexander the Great, just because their government recently started building lots of Alexander statues and financing historians to write revisionist bullshit (nation building) doesn't mean they actually are macedonians. It's the same with the Holy Roman Empire, they weren't the continuation of the Western Roman Empire. Doesn't matter if they weren't roman genetically because their culture wasn't roman.

You could say the same with modern day arabs, it's impossible to say that the actual arabs (from the arabian peninsula) raped so much that now everyone there is arab. They consider themselves arabs and have arab culture, that's enough.

>just because their government recently started building lots of Alexander statues and financing historians to write revisionist bullshit
They probably wouldn't even be pulling that shit if Greeks didn't sperg over the name issue.

south slavs are I2a2

You do know that unironically actually means unironically, and you cant just put irony along with it?

>random mixed up goulashy hill peasant type foods typical of slavs everywhere
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't write a post.

Is this some TRI MORETTA meme I don't understand? If so explain.

Also, there is a place called Macedonia in Greece so it's really difficult for them not to sperg about it.
Why does this board care so much about genetics?
Fucking Atatürk wasn't a turk if one uses this board definition of true ethno-nationality.

Alexander was born in Pella, a city within modern day Greece's border. His mother was an epirote (aka a greek) and his father was a macedonian (an ethnic group speaking a hellenic language and mostly residing in what is modern day Greece).
How exactly does one go about denying Alexander's greek heritage?

But you're wrong so let me fix that for you. Some* southern Slavs are I2a2. But you'll still have problem explaining how that makes I2a2 slavic.

No, he's right. I2 is native to Europe, arrived from Scandinavia to the Balkans during the glacial maximum, before the Indo-Europeans were in Europe.

>arrived from Scandinavia to the Balkans
Other way around considering Scandinavia was under fucking ice.

>TRI MORETTA meme
No, I just think that the antiquisation in Macedonia is a reaction to Greek policies.

>there is a place called Macedonia in Greece
It's a geographical region that was there before the state of Greece even existed. There's also a region called Luxembourg in Belgium and a state called Luxembourg outside Belgium, but they're not being autistic about it.

One has to give the Tunisians some credit for not being retarded enough to claim themselves as modern Carthaginians. Italians, Greeks, and Egyptians have little to nothing in common with their more famous ancestors. They are their own people now with their own values.

the other way around dumbfuck, nordics are decendants from the balkans

>There's also a region called Luxembourg in Belgium

Yeah, also Galicia in Spain and Galicia near Poland. Even fucking Iberia. However, it's not the same. It would be like the galicians near Poland settled in what is now Galicia in Spain and "galicized" them.

The State of Greece is a new thing of course but Greece itself and its culture is really old. The State of Greece now claims that they are the continuation of the old Greece. They speak greek and have greek traditions like dancing funny. What about FYROM citizens? I'm sure they still have some ancient macedonian traditions but they are a new culture, slav or not, they aren't like the ancient macedonians.

>There's also a region called Luxembourg in Belgium and a state called Luxembourg outside Belgium, but they're not being autistic about it.
That's because Belgium doesn't claim to be the real Luxembourg when in fact they just rule some former luxembourgish land.
FYROM actually claims to be the heir of ancient Macedonia when it wasn't even a fucking core land of that kingdom back then, it was called Peonia and was every little bit a conquered land as Thrace and Greece.

Yeah, other way, ok. Calm down, fuck.

>they aren't like the ancient macedonians.
No, but that's not a reason for them to not be named Macedonia when they're in the region of Macedonia.

>when it wasn't even a fucking core land of that kingdom back then
That's debatable as some parts were and it's irrelevant since they're claiming the whole region of Macedonia as their historical ethnic territory.

Greeks, modern """Macedonians""" are LARPing Slavs.

There is nothing wrong them calling themselves and their country Macedonia. Claiming they are the ancient macedonians and that they preserve their traditions is another thing.

WE

>they're claiming the whole region of Macedonia as their historical ethnic territory
Which doesn't even make any sense since the region they talk about is basically the roman province and not the original Macedonia, and it's not in any way ethnically unified nor it ever was. It would have been divided between greeks, illyrians and thracians in antiquity; greeks, slavs and turks in the middle ages; greeks, albanians and bulgarians now.

>the region they talk about is basically the roman province and not the original Macedonia
Doesn't matter. Today it's region that it is and was recognised as such by Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria during the Balkan Wars and the divison of Macedonia between the three.

>it's not in any way ethnically unified nor it ever was
All of Balkans were an ethnic mess. There were Slavic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, there are still some, but many were forcefully Hellenised or exiled.

>was recognised as such
As a geographical division, not an ethnic one. You're being very intellectually dishonest in mixing the two up.

Which of these is an authentic ελληνιkή recipe made by sophisticated merchants on the Mediterranean coast with roots to classical times and which is a rough and ready hill peasant food made in haste by a drover on the go in a landlocked country?
It shows historical migration patterns?
Slav is a culture, L2a2 is a haplotype. I suppose it is not a crime for someone of a different ethnic group to adopt another culture as the L2a2 did when they adopted Slavic culture, however "Macedonians" insist they are direct descendants of ancient Macedonians.

...

No, I'm not, I think I'm being clear.

1) The state of Macedonia is within the geographical region of Macedonia.
2) Macedonian nationalism, since the 19th century, was attempting to establish a Macedonian state covering the entire region of Macedonia, including the sizable Slavic Macedonian population in the North of Aegean (now Greek) Macedonia. This is relevant because it shows that ancient Macedon not being within the modern state of Macedonia is not a good objection to the name issue.

>It shows historical migration patterns?

Yeah but that means shit when talking about nowadays culture. For example hungarians, descendant of magyars. Are they slavs? Steppe chinks? Cumanians? Doesn't matter, they practice old magyar traditions, whether they mixed with the cumanians, slavs and even some germanic peoples doesn't matter.

>This is relevant because it shows that ancient Macedon not being within the modern state of Macedonia is not a good objection to the name issue.
Top kek, no it doesn't. It just means that FYROM has been larping for two centuries.
The vast majority of 19th century nationalism is absolutely baseless historically speaking, it was just a mask for petty imperialism or strategic concerns.
And again, the issue is not the name, the issue is the claim that they're actually the heirs of ancient Macedonia. It's like modern Syria laying claim to all former assyrian heritage and land on the basis of having been a province of the neo assyrian empire once upon a time.

>the issue is the claim that they're actually the heirs of ancient Macedonia.
I don't think most of the population is actually claiming that, though.

Yeah, that's why I said unironically

>I don't think most of the population is actually claiming that, though.
The government does, and it's an entrenched topic that has been going strong for decades, which means it's a popularly supported enough claim that no party that matters has dropped it. I don't know about "most" the population, but it's clearly a large segment.
Besides, it doesn't really matters what the little people think, this is a diplomatic issues and as such what matters are diplomatic actors. So unless there's an NSA against the macedonian claim with widespread support in Macedonia, it's a moot point.

>All of Balkans were an ethnic mess. There were Slavic Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, there are still some, but many were forcefully Hellenised or exiled.
And there was a civil war in Greece that included that, right after WW2. Suffice to say that it was the first usage of napalm by the US forces.

Both Pella and where Philip was from were Macedonian for quite a bit before them Greek queers occupied the region in the Balkan wars.

Macedonian, no matter how much Gr**ks try to say other wise. He hated Gr**ks, he slaughtered thousands of them. His father’s favorite city was in the heart of modern Macedonia.
>inb4 BUT HE SPOKE GREEK
He spoke tons of languages. What are you gonna say next, he’s Persian?

Several hundred thousand ethnic Macedonian people were killed and exiled during that war.

>were ANCIENT Macedonian
AKA greek. Ancient macedonians lived in northern Greece, spoke a hellenic dialect, followed archaic greek religious practices, were accepted into pan-hellenic events like the olympics (unlike thracians and illyrians and other barbarians), etc.
If modern macedonians claim they aren't greek, then they're disclaiming any relation with ancient Macedonia.

>His father’s favorite city
Which would be what? Pella is in Greece, Thebes in Greece, Aigai is in Greece. What other city was Philip known to have favoured besides those?

Macedonian was likely more related to Illyrian and Thracian languages, aka NOT Greek, which like them belonged to the same language group, which is not the same as being the same language.
And Macedonians weren't always invited to olympics, as they were seen as barbarians too, until they conquered Greece.

Besides, Modern Greece is hardly continuation of Ancient Greece and even Ancient Macedonia, given that they created their identity from scratch, and some parts of current Greece have seen themselves as Romans (and a part of Roman Empire with seat in Constantinople), rather than Hellenes.

True but so are modern day Greeks as well. Most Greeks define their culture by language, not by ethnicity/race and most Greeks are just Greek-speaking Albanians and Slavs themselves.

The whole ancient claim on Macedonia as being Greek is complete bullshit. For about 3400 years there were Greek people but not a unified Greek kingdom or Republic of any kind. Greeks weren't called Greeks because of the country they came from but the region.

For about 300 years some part of today's Macedonia was part of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom, the fact that around 600 AC Slavs came about and started fucking and integrating into native population doesn't mean Macedonia has any less of a claim to the name.

The fact that Greeks are afraid that Greeks who live in the area of the Ancient Kingdom of Macedonia might merge with Macedonia or that Macedonia might lay claim to the area just shows that Greeks have no true claim to the name or the area them selves.

Again Ancient Greeks considered Ancient Macedonians inferior, lower class, barbarians and so forth, they never saw Macedonians as Greeks and that is Greece Achilles heel. There is evidence of it in writing and it could be used by locals to separate them selves from Greece.

Occupied lands! !

>Macedonian was likely more related to Illyrian and Thracian languages
Bullshit. Macedonian is invariably considered Hellenic, and the only debate is whether it was actually a branch of greek or an independent hellenic branch.

Depends on the standard applied.

Alexander's family literally applied to be recognised as Hellenes, so Greeks win. Source, Herodotus.

However, Alexander was mixed race with Molossian/Illyrians. So, perhaps more than one group can claim him.

Yet, to whom do the ancients belong, generally speaking? It's a bit odd to say that a Classical figure belongs to some modern christians. Rather, they ought to belong to those who respect them and inherit their views and practices. So, Alexander belongs to Hellenists and other pagans. Also, people who study and would recreate the ancient world.

Geographically, ancient Macedonia is located largely in modern Greece. I dont give a shit about the land occupied by the FYROM. It's probably Paionia or some other clown tier region.

He fucking loved Skopje

False

...

No, correct.

No, false.

This statement is false.

thats not an answer to the question silly

Does Georgia, the caucasus state, have any right to claim Washington? Does Georgia, the american state, have any right to claim [insert person from caucasus]?

Ancient Macedonia, the region, barely touched what is now the FYROM. This is the problem.

What is now FYROM lost 60% of it's territory during the Balkan wars. Used to include Pella and all that jazz.

FYROM didn't exist during the balkan wars to lose anything.

The historical region of Macedonia was divvied up during the balkan wars, but it certainly couldn't be said to have lost territory since it wasn't a political unit back then.
That fucking region never existed as a political unit since roman times. Before the balkan wars it spent half a fucking millennium split between three ottoman vilayet, and after the balkan wars it was split between three (plus Albania) countries. FYROM is literally younger than I am.

By that logic, greece didn't exist 2300 years ago to have a claim to Macedonia.

Greeks existed. Macedonians (from fyrom) didn't. They barely exist today as they're bulgars.

But the Hellenes did, and Alexander's family demanded to be recognised as Hellenic.

Greece was established in the 19th century m80.

What are you referencing by "This statement"? If you meant the previous statement, then that would be false. If you meant your statement, then it has no truth value since assuming either it's validity or falsehood results in a contradiction.

Greeks. Even if you go by the argument of those who argue Archaic and Classical Macedonia wasn't Greek, you still have Herodotus and Thucydides saying that the ruling dynasty was started by Greeks and is Greek, and imply that the aristocratic class (and in Thucydides' case, Southern mid-Classical Macedonia) were all Greek. There's various temple dedications and inscriptions from non-Royal Macedonians in pre-Alexander Macedonia and from temples around Greece, and near all have Greek names found around Greece. There's many Greek inscriptions around Macedonia from various eras starting with the Archaic age onwards, but none of them contain a unintelligible language. Pre-Alexander Macedonians may have not been considered to apart of the Greek ethnos to the Ancient Greeks themselves, but their ethnos is categorically Hellenic if it's indeed true they weren't really 'Greek-Greek' based on all the evidence we have of them.

The region Macedonia was stripped away from Bulgaria because of the Treaty of Berlin 1878.
During that time the "macedonians" were migrating into the newly formed state of Bulgaria.

And you also have IMRO, which fought nearly 50 years for the liberation of Macedonia, even after the filthy Serbs got their hands on it.

greece,
people in macedonia arent related to ancient macedonians

today they are just germanic, slavic,etc

>I mean it was called the Macedonian empire.
There is a region in northern Greece called Macedonia...

>I mean it was called the Macedonian empire.
Top kek.
Who has a better historical claim to Augustus? Italians or romanians? I mean it was called the Roman empire.

1: take a bunch of Bulgarians
2: brainwash them to think they are Macedonian
3: gain support to invade Greece and reclaim their "homeland"
4: plan never materializes and now a meme state of Megas Alexandros cosplayers exists

Ancient Greeks saw the people of the interior (modern FYROM) as barbarian because they were.
All the people of note were Greek, and FYROMite Bulgars and Albanians aren't even those barbarians anyway, so why worry?

Macedonians. Alexander/Macedonians didn't like Greeks, and Greeks didn't like Macedonians.

>Alexander/Macedonians didn't like Greeks

Dimitar, pls.

dude, Macedonians are literally slavs, Alexander the great was an Ilyrian (most likely albanian ethnicity), acient Macedonians got breeded out into your casual slav.

>Alexander the great was an Ilyrian (most likely albanian ethnicity)
WE

From Wikipedia
>Alexander the Great was a king (basileus) of the Ancient GREEK kingdom of Macedon

Hmm.. let me see.. Alexander the Great
>spoke Greek
>worshipped Greek Gods
>participated in what was traditionally Greek sports game event which was exclusive only to Greeks
>was educated by a Greek
> was "racially" Greek and not a albinochimp snowtroglodyte Slav(e)
I think that pretty much covers every aspect used to define ethnicity, those being Ancestry/Language/Society/Culture, except for Nation because such a concept did not exist back then.

Fucking cumbaboon Slav(e)s must truly be the equivalent of niggers to Greeks. Greek Byzantine Orthodox Christian missionaries
>introduced them to civilization
>offered them a fucking alphabet
>Christianized them
and what they got in return was them WE WUZ'ing around. Truly reminding of the recent incident of ghetto niggers vandalizing a statue of Abraham Lincoln.

Daily reminder that the macedonians were considered barbarians by the greeks, only after they got btfo by philip they began to sing another tune

>>spoke Greek
Macedonian wasnt Greek.
>>worshipped Greek Gods
So? I can worship them too
>>participated in what was traditionally Greek sports game event which was exclusive only to Greeks
Yes, after Macedonia BTFO most of Greece they were allowed to participate.
>>was educated by a Greek
And? Am I an American if my proffesor is one?

I agree that greeks have better claim to him, but you have shit arguments.

Greeks didn't like Greeks. Everyone loves the Greece meme except the Greeks who see it for what it really is. So in fact this makes Alexander more Greek.

>Macedonian wasnt Greek.
Uhh.. has there even been a definitive answer on whether the Ancient Macedonian language was a dialect of Ancient Greek or was a separate language that was closely tied to Ancient Greek? Either way, it most definitely would belong in a Hellenic/Greek family of languages (if that's even a thing) assuming it was to be considered a separate language.
>So? I can worship them too
>And? Am I an American if my proffesor is one?
Didn't I already mention the different aspects that define ethnicity? Culture is one of them, and having been educated by a Greek as well as worshipping Greek Gods is an indication of him being "culturally" Greek, which pushes him further towards being "ethnically Greek" since culture is an aspect of ethnicity.

Modern Greeks can claim Ancient Greeks. I'm not sure about Modern Macedonians though, I think they might be Slav larpers. Does anyone know?

Modern day """Macedonians""" are just LARPing Slavs. They speak Bulgarian, there is literally nothing Macedonian about them.

WUZ

>Macedonian wasnt Greek.
Ancient Macedonian was extinct by Alexanders time, he spoke Ancient Greek
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
>It gradually fell out of use during the 4th century BC, marginalized by the use of Attic Greek by the Macedonian aristocracy

But Macedonians didn't genocide the ancient population of the area. Any changes are admixture, not replacement. The fact that this population was more likely Thracian or Illyrian rather than Hellenic is a whole different matter.

I mixed up the centuries, Ancient Macedonian was maybe not extinct but he did not speak it as his first language

Anyone who is Christian has made a very clear break with antiquity. You are not ancient.

If Alexander himself was still alive today but was now some faggot living in America and indulging in American culture, would that make him a different person?