BTC goes down $200, a small % of it's value

>BTC goes down $200, a small % of it's value
>altcoins go down 30%+ because of it


why?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=8zVzw912wPo
coingeek.com/apology-mike-hearn/
monerohash.com/explorer/
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/mathematical-proof-that-the-lightning-network-cannot-be-a-decentralized-bitcoin-scaling-solution-1b8147650800
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/continued-discussion-on-why-lightning-network-cannot-scale-883c17b2ef5b
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/bitcoin-cash-is-terrifying-f1a8cc4d536
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

altcoins are more promissing in an up market.

People are moving to more secure, lower-return crypto like BTC because their confidence is down.

Altcoins are gonna get hammered first.

because there's only 1 cryptocurrency and every other coin is speculation

Ark is up though

altcoins behave like derivatives, in that their value is mainly dependent on the value of btc vs. fiat.

for example if btc/usd goes up, then it signals more confidence in cryptos in general, especially ones derived from btc blockchain code.

The irony is that BTC wrecked their actual product, it's purely speculative at this point.

wrecked how?

destroyed its viability as a p2p currency

The only reason anyone buys it now is because they expect it to go up.

The only purpose of shitcoins is to acquire more bitcoin. If bitcoin loses value there's no purpose to shitcoins.

You are right. I wonder when will people finally realize this and invest in Monero only.

look at this guy, in a sense he's right
Monero has a specific utility.

I'm sorry but you're going to have to go into detail

> GMO investing 300 million into mining hardware for BTC
> Stock exchanges are trying to add BTC (SEC along with some banks of china are warning about ICOs because of their scammy nature, but they don't mention bitcoin)
> Countries like Japan are adopting BTC as a legitimate form of currency along with other countries

Any of those 3 things outweigh any other coin on the market by far. More than some alliance group of companies that won't even use the public network, they'll probably build their private one so your "tokens" aren't worth shit, more than some whitepaper that anyone can write and get free hosting with a domain. No other coin comes even close.

People wanna get out of the market when btc tanks, they first have to sell their alts for btc which makes the alt/btc pair go down so if alt/btc goes down and btc/fiat goes down, alt/fiat goes down even harder, transitive property

not true desu

Long term storage of a high value, speculative commodity. Nope, can't see that doing well.

>hurr durr muh fees

If you're moving hundreds of thousands of dollars that shit is a pittance, and 30-60 mins is extremely fast.

Lmao, literally check bittrex

No, Monero is the only coin that can function as a currency, period. It's the only private and fungible cryptocurrency in existence, not counting dead and inactive forks.

mem pool is empty bro

with segwit and lightening network in full swing you won't be paying more than 2 cents per transaction

yeah but when BTC pumps everything goes down too

If alt/btc tanks and btc/fiat tanks then alt/fiat tanks even harder, you can't deny this

yeah bro, that's like the only exchange that exists. You should probably look at exchanges with much higher volumes than bittrex

you're probably one of those people that shill alt coins

Sure I can.

On bitfinex you can exchange from USDT to shitcoin. You can exchange from shitcoin1 to shitcoin2. You never have to touch BTC ever.

yes and shitcoin volume with btc pairs is way higher than usdt pairs thus shitcoin/btc pair is a better indicator of price

most exchanges which offer shitcoins have way more shitcoins priced in btc

it's not viable because tx's are slow and expensive, if the tx fees are $5 then it's impractical for everyday purchase. I don't even pay 2.99 to use the ATM, call me cheap but it's the common sentiment, this is why lines are longer at the bank atm than the gas station atm.

They're driving up the price and inconvenience to pressure bitcoiners into pying LN subscruption fees and sending every tx over a third party network. So I'll repeat msylf, bitcoin's utility was it's easy and affordable to use as a currency, directly from Point A-Point B. It' no longer ny of these things.

ETF are speculative investments btw and large investments in mining hardware reflect the investor's judgement that BTC value will rise. This isn't utility, it's speculating on future growth.

So there's shitcoins that you can only trade with BTC? Not USDT, ETH, or some other shitcoin?

BTC pumping is the signal to cash out your shitcoins for BTC. When BTC goes sideways you go back to shitcoins.

yes, just look at poloniex, bittrex usdt and btc pairs

the entire market is way too dependent on btc right now and that is why you'll see the entire market tank when btc tanks

Currency: a system of money in general use in a particular country.

Privacy is a separate function.

Lightening network is an option, you're not forced to use it. If you would like to use LN you can and there's benefits to that, including lower fees.

> They're driving up the price and inconvenience to pressure bitcoiners into pying LN subscruption fees and sending every tx over a third party network

Who's they? Do you have proof of whoever you claim is doing this?

Interesting. So shitcoins go up 50x in a month. There are many shitcoins that do this. Why doesn't BTC price go up as well at the same rates where BTC tanks shitcoins tank.

people stay in the market when btc goes up and speculate further on other alts. it's just that when btc tanks and people want to get out of the market they mostly have to go through btc to get out, which makes alt/btc tank.

this can't possibly be so hard to understand?

>Who's they? Do you have proof of whoever you claim is doing this?
This has been being discussed for over 2 years now. You should invest some time into unstanding wtf you're talking about, or if you can't do that then actually reading the post you're responding to.

>Lightening network is an option, you're not forced to use it.
You can use LN, or you can pay $6 for a $1 cup of coffee. This isn't a true choice. And if the coffeeshop wants confirmation (like exchanges do), you'll have to place your order a day or 2 in advance.

Now the discussion as I'm sure you're not aware is in LOWERING the block limit, during this time of insane growth. You're literally going to be paying hundreds of dollars er-tx, if you don't use LN.

If you do use Lightning, you're not sending coin directly to the other party.

Privacy is a necessary function, and it's what Bitcoin was perceived to have when it was first being used. Since Bitcoin is now basically as traceable as using Paypal, it lost its utility and is now a meme coin with no advantages.

You don't know what your're talking about newfag. Bitcoin was always open ledger.

And you're arguing with someone who likes Monero.

I think you're talking about core I'm not sure. I would like proof of this. A counter example would be segwit. It lets you push more transactions through the blockchain itself and the signatures are on a side chain for you to verify if you'd like. Segwit is also backwards compatible. So If you're not talking about core, show me who's this "group" that's confirmed without a doubt. Please link sources because I'd like to read about it.

LN is not the only implementation on top of segwit but it's one of the most hyped. You can have transactions between two parties if you'd like, you don't have to go through a 3rd party. You and I can open a payment channel, both deposit some coins in, set a high TTL and sign every transaction. Once we no longer do business we'll close this channel and push it onto the blockchain. I don't think you understand what LN does and how it works. Here's a video for you to watch youtube.com/watch?v=8zVzw912wPo

Like gold? or the dollar?

A store of value doesn't necessarily need utility as long as it has mass trust. When you go deep enough, gold was the original FIAT, followed by the dollar, followed by BTC

I know, I was talking about the general perception of it by majority of people.

And privacy is in no way a necessary function for a currency. I gave you the definition str8 from the dictionary.

If you want to know the real reason BTC is no longer itself, look into this stuff by using search engines and things like that

You're obvously very new to this and you're in your 20s at the most. Turn 30, apply critical thinking and you should be able to figure out which side is speaking honestly. But you don't even know what the sides are, research newfag!

Here's a basic politics rundown for you
coingeek.com/apology-mike-hearn/

Think of Bitcoin XT as BCC's predecessor.

The one siide is blocstream/core, the other is BCC. Which is exactly, completely, 100% the exact same thing Bitcoin was before the sabotage (not raising the block limit).

The argument is about scalability and the block limit, which was put in place when BTC was much smaller as a way to prevent spam, DDOS attacks. The limit ws set so high that it didn't interfere with tx's in the slightest for years. 2015 was when it became an issue.

So the block limit was designed to stop spamming, but it's being used to make per-tx fees and wait times unmanagable, to take your money, to pressure you into using blockstream's separate, private ledger.

Bitcoin the concept was a PEER TO PEER system of exchange, made possible by the open ledger, and not using any third party networks who aren't going to keep their ledger for free.

Essentially, an anti-bank system of exchange is being turned into a bank.

People use it as an investment now, rather than a currency. If you want to pay omeone to maintain the ledger for you and facilitate tx's, banks already do that.

But fungibility is, and there is no way to achieve fungibility in a cryptocurrency with a public ledger.

I am getting sick of this shit. You can't win.

Btc goes up alts go down.
Btc goes down alts go down.

Btc stays stable for a while alts slowly climb until some chink decides to dump btc.

Are you baiting me? You're just using big words.

A public ledger is the foundation of blockchain tech. Monero may hide details like sender and receiver but they use a pulic ledger too: monerohash.com/explorer/

Instead of being pedantic, answer me this. Do you agree that Bitcoin is not fungible? And that fungibility is essential for a coin to be an efficient currency?

Ah you're a BCH guy. I've been following the debate for awhile as well now.

> Bitcoin the concept was a PEER TO PEER system of exchange, made possible by the open ledger, and not using any third party networks who aren't going to keep their ledger for free.

Do you understand what P2P means? P2P, according to google means "denoting or relating to computer networks in which each computer can act as a server for the others, allowing shared access to files and peripherals without the need for a central server."

P2P from a network perspective means that it can act as a server and client at the same time. P2P means it's a distributed system. So how does LN not fit that profile or the definition of P2P? Please tell me your definition of p2p and how LN is not a P2P system.

> If you want to pay omeone to maintain the ledger for you and facilitate tx's, banks already do that.

What are you even saying? on LN you hold on to your bitcoins because you have your private key. Every transactions on LN is signed with your own keys. You broadcast your transactions to the blockchain once the payment channel is closed or the TTL is reached. Do you pay miners to facilitate your tx's? Yeah, it's called miner fees for transactions. You already do that so what are you even talking about? The ledger is maintained by bitcoin nodes that verify transactions. You don't pay for those in LN networks nor do you pay for them now. Those nodes aren't changing.

LN does the following: If you and I are making payments to each other, you give me 1 BTC and I give you 2 BTC and once the TTL is reached or either you or I decide to close the payment channel, the transaction that gets pushed to the blockchain is me giving you 1 BTC. It reduces the transaction amount from 2 to 1. If we have a lot of transactions, it would reduce the transaction to 1, on the blockchain.

please watch the video I posted to understand LN before you bash it. It is a much better solution than BCH when it comes to scaling and it does so in a more decentralized manner than BCH's implementation.

>Here's why you're wrong about lightning network being a good thing: politics that only 30 year-olds can understand!
great technical argument

>Bitcoin the concept was a PEER TO PEER system of exchange, made possible by the open ledger, and not using any third party networks who aren't going to keep their ledger for free.
lightning networks are peer-to-peer ... they don't depend on any trusted third parties. Off-chain transactions are always finalized into the blockchain. Where are you getting your bad arguments from?

even if you can triangle trade to eth or tether the highest volume trade pair is the price setter. which is always btc kek

let me clarify LN with an example

A and B both commit 5 BTC to the payment channel so the payment channel is worth 10 BTC

- A gives B 1 BTC | A = 4, B = 6
- B gives A 2 BTC | A = 6, B = 4
- A gives B 3 BTC | A = 3, B = 7

Either A or B decide to close the payment channel and broadcast to the network.

What's pushed on to the blockchain is that A gave 2 BTC to B, in just 1 transaction instead of 3. Note that each of the 3 transactions are SIGNED with your private keys so you can't fake it because A or B can prove these transactions happened and they'll get their money. There can be a million transactions between A and B and the final settlement is what the blockchain cares about when someone decides to close the payment channel, not what happened in between. This is why segwit + LN will scale much better. If you used BCH all 1 million transactions needs to be mined, kept on a ledger FOREVER, and publicly available for anyone to view.

You can go beyond and do nifty things like do transactions between 3 parties or even more. Each transaction will be SIGNED and what's pushed to the bitcoin network is the FINAL settlement of these transactions. How the fuck is this not peer to peer? Anyone can start a payment channel with anyone else.

I don't agree that a currency is defined by privacy or fungability. You say Monero is a currency, you say no currency with open ledger can be fungible and wthot fungability it's useless, and like I told you Monero is open ledger.

FIAT means you can print as much as you want at your own discretion.

Gold isn't FIAT and the dollar/US money wasn't either, at first. Coins were silver, pennies were copper, and dollars were literal gold certificates for gold held in vaults. The certificates were more convenient to carry, and once the clients preferred them, then the (((vault owners))) started loaning other people's gold around for interes, this is the basis for the Fed Reserve.

I'm trying to teach you something, newfag. "P2P" btw is short for "Peer to Peer" i.e. the coin goes directly from the buyer to the seller.

Here's some info on LN from a "BCH guy" that I'm positive you won't read
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/mathematical-proof-that-the-lightning-network-cannot-be-a-decentralized-bitcoin-scaling-solution-1b8147650800

Here's the follow up
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/continued-discussion-on-why-lightning-network-cannot-scale-883c17b2ef5b

If you don't what p2p stands for and you don't know this , you're too new to be arguing about this stuff. Read about it first, and don't buy into something you don't understand! There's no shortcut to learn them without study.

Just because I don't know exchanges well and keep up with shitcoins and their white papers, it doesn't mean I don't care about the coin I invested in. Studying exchanges and shitcoins doesn't mean I'll understand bitcoin. In fact, I would go as far to say that I can be completely oblivious to the price of all coins but still understand the technical scaling and decentralized issues.

If you believe that a currency doesn't need to be fungible then you can't be helped. No reason to continue the discussion.

>>>(((r/bitcoin)))
>>>(((bitcointalk.org)))

What does that even mean?

Actually, it would be better if you just exchanged your BTC for whatever currency you'd like. I don't think there's a point to debate with someone that doesn't know how segwit + LN work for bitcoin scaling. I'm long on bitcoin but if you think it's a bad investment then you should sell. There's really nothing more to say.

well they don't care about currency they want to establish a new gold standard now

(((they))) want to replicate the world they know and know how to control in crypto

Your critique of Bitcoin's fungability (can't buy certain things you want to buy in privacy) could also be applied to the dollar, the euro and every bank-run currency.

For examplle, if I want to buy Bitcoin with dollars, I either gie coinbase my personal info or buy it on lbc, and western union asks for my social and takes my picture.

You can't buy a beer at the bar with Monero because the privacy functions are too expensive for small tx's or at least they are right now.

There is no perfect fungibility, in any currency.

Go to bed, Roger.

>jonaldfyookball

He means that you should read (((bitcoin.com))) and (((r/btc))) instead

user generated meme content is something I stay away from. A lot of people get defensive or get pissy. I mostly look at technical discussions on bitcoin's github and other "forks" of bitcoin

Well, cash can be considered fungible.

All your side does is obfuscate, adhom and confuse newfags with big words and convoluted points into believing you.

Fyookball speaks plainly and presents logical arguments.
medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/bitcoin-cash-is-terrifying-f1a8cc4d536

Like I said I can't purchase Bitcoin privately with it, wasn't privacy your argument against Bitcoin being fungible?

Reading your post again, doesn't seem you understand what fungibility actually means. Hint: it's not at all a synonym for privacy.

Fungability means every btc is worth the same as any other. How on earth does an open leger compromise this?

With public ledgers like Bitcoin it's very easy to trace Bitcoin transactions, and so you can end up with tainted Bitcoins that are tied to criminal activity. Your tainted Bitcoins can be blacklisted from exchanges and lose their value.

ah now I see, you're saying that if one btc has history with a criminal etc, it wouldn't be accepted everywhere.

Valid point, I'd think there'd be a way around it when this comes p in the future which it surely will.

There is no way around it without a cryptocurrency being private at the protocol level.

You're right, open ledger won't be fungible in the future. So the other coins will either be able to do this when the time comes or they won't.

Correct. Right now only Monero is fungible.