ITT: references, myths, videos, and news of Japanese history and prehistory.
I wanted to know more about Japanese in the and development from the Jomon period to about the Sengoku judai as this is the first prolific use of samurai.
There is very little on this and I have eaten through what little I can find. unfortunately I only speak English and most of what could tell me what I want to know is a tome, I don't have the attention-span to read, or is only written in Japanese.
I wonder why they ditched shields later on
I think it's because they found 2 handed polearm techniques more effective for their huge numbers of semi-profressional spear wielding ashigaru
they never had any cheap skirmishers that whipped spears and shit at em?
So did europeans.
Cavalry came to dominate the battlefield. Only way to stave them off was long spears, which require two hands. Eventually they found that large formations of long spears were just as effective against infantry as they were against cavalry. Of course that just led to more people dying from arrows, but neutralizing cavalry was more important.
I can't recall Japan ever employing skirmisher tactics
Might be because iron was scarce and you wouldn't want to waste it on heads for javelins
they integrated them into their armor as massive pouldrons.
In the continents shields were only given to the bravest warriors due to the sheer amount of casualty a shield unit would bare during a counter charge. A retreating unit would lower morale greatly for the other units.
It was common sight before the 700s.
they favored bum-rushing and ambushes. that is why in anime especially when they are wearing late period armor they look down when charging. this was to make them selves a wall of armor until the last second. that is also why they have the "after strike pause" as during a rush they would know what they hit until they literally looked up.
I thought most shields were flimsy wall shields like they used in Greece, just painted over with a lacquer to harden it??
Its also a design feature.
Because if you also reinforce the helmet to be the strongest part of the entire armor, and then turn the pauldrons into large shields, you are basically immune to arrows if you can maintain the charge posture looking down.
And because of how combat works
You get into the situation where if the shoulders and head are properly armored, the rest of the body do not need to be as well protected. So if you have composite layers of wood as pauldrons, the body armor can be cheaper and thinner.
So its suddenly a good suit of armor, that saves you money, because you field a professional conscript army to wage war.
And since those conscripts end up getting training, you can suddenly do things that are more advanced than shield walls, and do Pike strategies before you even have enough armor to do that.
There is also some flaws alongside it, but it won't show up in the higher nobilities armor or gear.
during the early medievel period armies were small, think thirty people, the core would be your relatives and the rest would be servants and friends.
The power was in the wealthy Calvary who had the best armor weapons and horses. everyone else was their to protect and support them.
Armies without a lot of cavalry lost unless they occupied difficult terrain, so warfare tended to concentrate on that
arrow wounds were super common but they were usually survivable. It was just the raw numbers that made them lethal.
they didn't normally use personal shields, but large portable shields were very much in demand. Local temples would be ransacked for their doors every time a battle broke out.
Even foot soldiers were primarily archers so a large portable barricade that would resist arrows and charges by light Calvary were more useful
The more I look at pre-Sengoku Jidai Japan, the more I can't help but feel that any Ancient and/or Medieval army from the rest of Asia or Europe would curbstomp them.
Imagine if a wizard conjured up William the Conqueror's invasion force to land in 1066 Japan instead. The bushi would've been curbstomped hard. Hell, you could even have Harald Hardrada's Viking army invade instead and it'd still be a one-sided battle.
Japanese arms and armor only work against Japanese opponents. It wasn't until the 16th century when they developed arquebuses (thanks to copying Portuguese designs) that they could actually punch above their weight somewhat, but they lacked artillery, rockets, and even shipwright skills for an ocean-going navy. This is why they got their asses handed to them in the Imjin War by the Chinese and Koreans after the initial shock of Hideyoshi's onslaught.
Say, Kublai's fleet in 1274 or 1281 didn't have to deal with storms. Japan would be utterly fucked once the Mongols disembarked with their Chinese & Korean auxiliaries.
>Say, Kublai's fleet in 1274 or 1281 didn't have to deal with storms. Japan would be utterly fucked once the Mongols disembarked with their Chinese & Korean auxiliaries.
I distinctly remember that Mongols did, in fact, make landfall and such. The first time they did much better than the Japanese but ultimately got screwed over by Kamikaze and the Japan was able to wipe the remainder on sea.
Then they got into a much more serious invasion but Japan was also much better prepared for it and held their ground pretty well before the history repeated itself.
Say they didn't have weather problems at all in 1274 and 1281. Japan had neither the resources, tech, or tactical acumen to defeat the Mongols once they established a bridgehead. Japan would be Mongolized by the end of the 13th century.
This is outdated, modern historians like Thomas Conlan who have looked at military reports at the time believe the Japanese were more than capable of repelling an invasion.
The kamikaze was as much a religious phenomena as the actual cause of victory. The Japanese regularly attributed domestic loses and victories to the hand of the gods and Buddha.
The fact is except for the first few encounters the Japanese regularly fought the mongols to at least a draw, and always managed to capitalize on any mistakes.
The only skirmishers that Japan had were slingers way way back in the pre-Kofun period.
I doubt this very much. The Japanese did not have the experience in mobilizing and coordinating mass troops like the Mongols did. They had no experience with gunpowder until the Mongols landed and frightened them with those bombs.
I do agree that steppe tactics would not fare very well in a mountainous country like Japan, but the Mongols were able to subdue Song China which was not steppe-friendly either. With the support of their Chinese and Korean troops, the Mongols would've ravaged and subdued many if not most of Japan's cities. Then it all grinds down to brutal guerrilla warfare in the mountains and passes while the Mongols control the sea lanes.
Thats true.
But then as you have pillaged your first village, taken a feudal castle, and gotten some rice, you run into a problem:
1. You don't speak the language
2. Getting anywhere on foot is a bitch
3. Your cumbstomp could be stopped by simple logistic fatigue from expanding and taking
I am not disagree, i just say that its possible to
I came
I took a few castles
I got tired of walking around
And I then got to stay as a cornerstone of Great Nihon.
Well imagine if the wizard swaps Britain and Ireland with the Japanese archipelago in the 11th century. The Normans or Vikings can always call for more reinforcements, exterminate the natives, breed with the women, and carve out a hybrid Euro-Japanese polity instead.
>Well imagine if the wizard swaps Britain and Ireland with the Japanese archipelago in the 11th century.
That would be a mess.
For one, Japan is pretty big compared to the old Albion and Ireland.
Then there's the issue of food. These guys live and die by rice and you can't grow rice that far north. Heck, they didn't conquer Hokkaido until much later simply because their rice wouldn't grow there so expansion north would be pointless.
But really, stop with these pointless what if magic scenarios.
It's tough enough as it is arguing whether Japan did or did not bluff on the Yuan. And they were right there, fought with them and everything.
The Heian period had excellent aesthethics and just looked cool and kinda alien in general, also lots of court intrigue n shit
The early Kofun period is also cool because basically Yamato conquering all of Japan and Shinto shrines everywhere
why couldn't leave the ainu alone ;_;
Well your doubt is irrelevant to the question. written accounts bare out the mongols losses.
Though it came at great cost to the shogunate most of the warriors in Kyushu and also from beyond where mobilized to defend the island.
Mongol tactics did work initially, though that probably had more to do with massed spears than gun powder. But eventually they were adapted to and the Japnese started winning.
The second Mongolian invasion saw no major victories for continental forces. The Japanese were much better organized and had some idea of what they were doing.
Granted if there was a land bridge things might have been different, but as long as they had to deal with an amphibious assault the mongols would lose
So basically an island full of Supreme Gentlemen with access to Western Euro mail, kite-shields, crossbows, and knightly swords? Well that's a cesspool of autism.
>with access to Western Euro mail, kite-shields, crossbows, and knightly swords?
Most of these things were still a complete rarity by the 11th century so no.
I cuuld just imagine an English men thinking, "cheerio, the chin aren't so far now, glory to the empire and starting a euro asian empire." and America having west-coast dominated politics rather than east coast.
any ways I was more interested in cultural attitudes the military is pretty straight forward but it doesn't explain a whole lot to why specifically samurai developed and not just glorified mercenaries, why their caste system.
The Sengoku period is actually the *last* major use of samurai, but I understand why you'd think that since more media covers Sengoku than all other eras combined. Once the Sengoku Period wraps up the Tokugawa Shogunate goes out of its way to pacify the samurai and render them pathetic so they'd never be powerful enough to have a civil war ever again. This led to two hundred years of peace, more or less, but once westerners came to the island any samurai that tried to return to the 'old ways' got fucking steamrolled.
In the time span you mentioned, there are three major time spans to look at. Ancient Japan is Jomon, Yayoi, and Kofun periods. We only really know about them through archeology.
Classic Japan is the Asuka, Nara, and Heian periods. In Western terms, Classic Japan takes place roughly from the fall of the Roman Empire to the Third Crusade. This is where what we know as Japanese culture gets formed, with an emperor and shinto and buddhism and Chinese-influenced writing and shit. We know the most from this era about the Heian period, because we have ALL their literature, and its pretty fucking awesome.
Medieval Japan is the Ashikaga and the Muromachi periods (1185-1600 or so) These are the first two Shogunates, elaborate samurai military dictatorships. This is the god-tier time of the samurai.
What are you most interested in?
It wasn't a caste system, there was a lot of mobility before Hideyoshi stratified it to prevent the problems it presented
I'm now fucking excited about Heian literature so I'm gonna recommend some. DESU a lot of these are boring if you sit down and read the whole thing so just read an abridged version of the best parts
The Tale of Genji- The first novel ever written. Watch as a bastard prince of the Imperial court fucks every Nipponese honey in Kyoto. He even cucks his own father, impregnating his step-mother with his own superior seed. The second portion of the book has him adopting a young girl and then raising her to be the perfect fuck princess before marrying her and becoming her real daddy in every sense of the word. Now you know the ancient roots of lolicon, congrats. To add even more delicious degeneracy, this loli fuck princess is also a self-insert for the author(!!!!!!!) Murasaki Shikibu.
The Tale of the Heike is also really fucking based. Its about the first real civil war Japan had, between the dual samurai factions of Taira and Minamoto. The two clans of a hilarious Jet versus Sharks vibe at first, murdering each other over very petty things ("this Minamoto guy told me I was a loser and pushed me off my horse, INTO a mud patch! I'll kill his family!"). By the end, however, shit is dead serious, leading to the genocide of every single man, woman and child on the losing side.
One of my personal favorites is the Pillow Book by Sei Shonagon. Its a diary of Sei Shonagon, a court maiden. She's also a HUGE bitch. She's catty in a weirdly contemporary way. "Fuckkkk I hate when you hook-up with a court minister and after he leaves in the morning he comes back five minutes later looking for his fan or wallet or whatever. Man the fuck up" Coincidentally, at the time of writing the emperor had two wives. She served one of the wives, and Murasaki Shikibu, author of Tale of Genji, worked for the other- so she'll be like "Uggggh is that cunt Murasaki working on her self-insert fic again I wanna gag."
>The first novel ever written
lmao @ you brainlets get on my level
lets start with where the samurai formed and their early stories and traditions.
I always thought there was two judais ashikaga's and oda's, forgive me if my interpretation is messed up.
youtube.com
they go even further back from their middle ages
A Jidai means a time period, so you can use those words interchangeably. As I said in this post if you want to know more about the first samurai look into the Tale of the Heike and the Genpei war. There's lots of great stories there. Battle for political control in Japan was nuanced because you couldn't overthrow the emperor or break the imperial line- so you had to just fight for the control of every OTHER court position. An earlier clan, the Fujiwara, tried to usurp political control by carefully breeding themselves in to the imperial line, but they were eventually foiled, so we just got the Shogunate instead.
There are three and a half shogunates, or samurai dictatorships. While there the emperor still exists, his political power is almost non-existent in comparison to that of the Shogun. The first two are the Kamakura and Ashikaga/Muromachi. Towards the end of the Ashikaga period, the Shogun lost grasp on the individual Daimyo (warlords), leading to the warring states period (Sengoku Jidai). Oda Nobunaga and Toyotomi Hideyoshi successively
united the land back together (that's the half-a-shogunate I mentioned later) but the fruits of their labor ultimately wound up in the hands of Tokugawa Ieyasu, leading the the Tokugawa Shogunate. Samurai rule officially ended in 1868, with the Meiji Restoration: The emperor, for the first time in 700 years, said "WTF why aren't I in charge" and kicked all the samurai to the curb, using his regained authority to craft a constitutional democracy (that he still had absolute power over)
that always gets me, please for the love of God make it an anime.
you have been very helpful I totally for got about these and thank-you for straightening out my understanding of early japan.
still wish there was more on be fore this, unfortunately its all speculation and archeology.
>Murasaki Shikibu
This is not her real name. Every women in the novel don't really have proper names, they're added later by other readers or scholars, because Japan belittled women a lot back then.
Also the story isn't really that interesting to be honest, it's great material for porn though.
>Also the story isn't really that interesting to be honest, it's great material for porn though.
Talk about a contradiction.
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