Romans this, greeks that

romans this, greeks that
they didn't develop in total islation

what does western culture owe to the ancient persians?

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They were a great model of how not to be

>didn't develop in complete isolation

Neither did Persians

yeah so what?

mozart was influenced by haydn

haydn was influenced by bach

mozart and haydn both contributed

>what does western culture owe to the ancient persians?
pretty much everything?

lol

are you implying that greek civilization didnt borrow most of its culture from the mesopotamians?

Yes

Just look for persian creations in internet

well, thats simply wrong

"Persian"

You do know that Greeks were already urbanized and colonizing the Mediterranean and the black sea by 750 bc, right?

That's before Persian speakers exited their caves

Persians, not so much, Minoans and Pheonicians though? Everything. Greek is basically a mixture of these two cultures.

Minoans are probably closely related to Egyptians, while Phoenicians are to Sumerians.

We can not go earlier yet. Means the West is ultimately rooted in Egypt and Sumeria.

"Persian"

You do know that Greeks were already urbanized and colonizing the Mediterranean by 750 bc, right?

That's before Persian speakers exited their caves, how could they have influenced them?

The only thing Greeks got from the Phoenician is their alphabet

phoenicia.org/greek.html

monotheism

Their architecture was shit in that time, t
Greek architecture came with the classical era

Iranian architecture in 750 bc

It already became decent in the 7th century bc, before the classical period, and they had good architecture in the bronze age (16-12th century bc) before they collapsed

>they had good architecture in the bronze age (16-12th century bc) before they collapsed
No, they dont, look for it

It was just rectangular buildings
Iranians settled in 1000-1200 BC and by 900, there already iranian kingdoms

They must be had some nices buildings

And greeks started building good after they met the phoenicians

>No, they dont, look for it

>It was just rectangular buildings

How is a rectangular build bad?

>Iranians settled in 1000-1200 BC and by 900

Where?

>They must be had some nices buildings

Such as?

Mycenean Greeks had this in 1250 bc, I wonder how Persian buildings (tents) would compare during that time

Do you actually give a fuck about Persia or do you just want to antagonize the West by bashing on romans and greeks? You enjoy the qualities of persian history and ancient art or do you just enjoy the opportunity that gives you to be edgy? As an actual persiaboo, I hate people like you. Antiquities men love all of it and don't hate on cultures that aren't their favourite.

Monumental tombs of Atreus, Mycenae, 1250 bc

Tyrins, Greece 1250 bc

Athens, 1400-1250 bc

Not him but one of the earliest archeological cultures after sumeria, mohenjo daro and the likes is in Iran. Jiroft dates from the 3rd millennium BC. They weren't iranian speakers and of course not persians, but we can't prove that Minoans or Mycenaeans can be compared to modern greeks either.

I discover they had kingdom reading about babylonian history

I just wanted to find out about the roots of western culture besides greece and rome

"oh they invented x, y z" was what I expected, not all this butthurt arguing

even now they are talking about greeks instead of persians

Iranians settled and first learned from elamites

>The only thing Greeks got from the Phoenician is their alphabet

If we awarded medals for the most stupid statements on this board, you'd be a prime candidate for one.

Recostruction of the Megaron of Pylos, Greece (The city of Nestor)

Yes, what else did they get from them?

Say it instead of insulting

>. They weren't iranian speakers and of course not persians

They were not Persians, you said it yourself

> or Mycenaeans can be compared to modern greeks either.

Myceneans spoked a form of Greek not much different from that of Classical times, they could probably speak together and understand eachother fine

>to the ancient persians

Virtually nothing, anything they learned from Persia the Persians had themselves learned from Sumer.

Yeah, by starting with a childish sentence like "romans this, greeks that" fucking good job. Are you 14? I know this is Veeky Forums but come one man, you knew what kind of bait OP you were writing even if you crazy plan included the bait attracting some actual useful info apart from shitposting. Don't try to fool anyone.

Elam is part of iranian history just like the Minoan civilization is part of greek history. This is not a case of wewuzing, as you said elamites are a very important actor in the region.

It looks like the temple phoenicians built for hebrews

this looks computer animaged.

Pylos palace dates back to 1300 bc and it was probably based on Minoan palaces which date back to 1700 bc, nothing to do with Phoenicians, who in 1300 bc were just Egyptian vassals

>potentially interesting thread
>just shitposting
Didn't expect much more desu

>Persians had themselves learned from Sumer.
From semitic people and elamites
Elam civ started in 4500-4000 BC
And they werent iranians

Were minoan and myceneans greek people?
I really want to know
>what else did they get from them?
It seems was many things as greeks started doing stuff after they started trading with phoeicians

It's almost like structures don't stay the same after 3300 years...

99% of Mesopotamian buildings are now an indistinguishable pile of mud

>It seems was many things as greeks started doing stuff after they started trading with phoeicians

Oh yeah I guess the Myceneans didn't exist then

>Were minoan and myceneans greek people?

Minoans were not, Myceneans were Greeks

>Were minoan and myceneans greek people?
Yes

How do you know?

Please don't shit this up with your autism, we're talking about language here.

>Yes, what else did they get from them?

Phoenicians were the most well known sea-farers of the time. Greeks got the ships from them.
Likewise, Phoenician colonies predate their Greek counterparts, so the notion of establishing themselves across the Mediterranean is also their in origin and very popular with the Greeks.

Just as a few quick examples. Realistically speaking, if you have so much influence within a nation that they reverse engineer your alphabet, you can be sure these guys knew, traded and shared ideas with each other almost constantly.

Because I looked it up many times on the internet and with a book I bought 2 years ago, I also studied it in history during highschool like 8 years ago

Those lands saw more destruction than greek/roman lands
user below you is saying they were greeks

If you're gonna go with this autism then elamites are iranians. But what said is the more acceptable awnser.

>Those lands saw more destruction than greek/roman lands
Time is the real destroyer senpai, specially when we're talking about structure that require supervision like palaces and the like.

reccomended books on mesopotamia, thanks.

Good goyim. Deny the Nordic roots of your civilization.

Pic related is a good read

>Phoenicians were the most well known sea-farers of the time. Greeks got the ships from them.

Very funny, but wrong, Aegean people already used ships since 2000 bc or before that, the Akrotiri frescos depict ships during 1700 bc, along with many other bronze age depictions of ships from Greece and the Aegean islands.

Minoans colonized West Anatolia and the Aegean since 1700 bc and traded directly with Cyprus, Egyot and the Levant, later Myceneans inherited their clonies after defeating them in 1450 bc and invaded Cyprus in 1350 bc.

Myceneans were going from a side of the Mediterranean to another 500 years before the Phoenicians did it, in fact Phoenicians probably inherited their westward sea routes from Cypriots.

>user below you is saying they were greeks

Fucking Christ look up Linear B, it conveyed an archaic form of Greek

No they didn't speak Greek, their language is lost.

I got this boy (in spanish) for my birthday from my friends, who are too normie to identify the specific regions and periods that I like. I haven't started to properly read it yet, but looks like a fine and complete overhaul/introduction.

Good goyim. Believe that the west wasn't capable of seafaring on their own. Europe was multicultural from the beginning,

>Very funny, but wrong, Aegean people already used ships since 2000 bc or before that, the Akrotiri frescos depict ships during 1700 bc, along with many other bronze age depictions of ships from Greece and the Aegean islands.

I'm not talking ships as in the concept of ship.
I'm talking about the advanced shit like triremes.
You know, the stuff we have Greek records of them getting from another civilisation.

Mycenean and Cypriot trade routes during the late bronze age, 500 years before Phoenicians

Jew spotted

Myceneans did, stop confusing them with Minoans, you retarded fuck.

Mycenean Linear B texts have actually been translated because they conveyed ancient Greek with some slight variations

well you could have specified that in the first place

Source that it was before the phonecians?

"The Etruscan world"
"The Phoenicians on the Routes of the West in the 9th century BC: chronologies, meetings, strategies"

Basically the Phoenicians started going in the Western Mediterranean by the late 9th century bc, Myceneans were trading directly with Sardinia and maybe even Spain since the 14th century bc

I thought it was obvious, though seeing retards like , it is well within your right to not expect the tiniest bit of intelligence on another poster's behalf.

In agreeing with you, mad user

Minoans weren't Greek, Greeks are Minoan

Did the Persians even identify as Mesopotamians?

You are a pretty dumb non-intelligent guy.

it did not, they borrowed more from the egyptians than anyone else but it was largely self made

I know that you are, but what am I?

They were culturally influenced by the Assyrians and Babylonians as well as the Elamites, just as their Mede forebearers were. Iran is part of Mesopotamia anyways, at least southwestern and western Iran directly connects into it.

I mean of course the Greeks are going to be more urbanized and settled given the Persians were still semi-nomadic pastoralists up until the late 7th century. The Medes, the other main Persian tribe, however were settled in northern Iran, parts of Anatolia, and the Caucasus.

Anyway if you want to go by this dick waving sort of thing, the Sumerians were already doing what the Greeks were starting to do by a factor of almost 3000 years earlier. So what's your point?

Persians were borrowers just like the Romans. Their art style and architecture just like the Romans blended the talents and styles of their subject nations to create their own unique creation; namely from the Babylonians, Assyrians, and other people in the Near East and Central Asia.

As for Persian contributions: the modern concept of parks, organized gardening, qanats (underground aquifers/water irrigations), and so on were started by the Persians. The Persians under Darius the Great also may not have CREATED the entirety of the Royal Road since some archelogical signs show it was already being developed by the Neo-Babylonians and Neo-Assyrian Empire before them but the Persians made it to what it was, and the concept of a unified singular highway with intermittent spaced out garrisons and taverns to protect messengers, trade caravans, merchants, and travelers is pretty cool.

>genes mean niggers are inferior
>genes don't mean erryone Aryan

YOU MAY ONLY HAVE ONE STORMFAG

>by a factor of almost 3000 years earlier

No

>So what's your point?

That Greeks didn't borrow much from Persians, like you have claimed

>Persian speakers
>caves
What are you doing here besides shitposting?

They were nomad tend dwelling barbarians, when Aegeans had proto cities since at least 2,800 bc

>3400-3100 BC vs 8th century BC
Okay.

Stop being dumb.

>3400-3100 BC vs 8th century BC
>Okay.

Vs 8th century bc, the fuck does this even mean

Greek speakers had civilization since 1500-1450 bc, the so called "Mycenean civilization" was made of Greek speakers, open a book, you ignorant buffoon.

>Stop being dumb.

I'm not, but you're a retarded fuck, Iranians were Nomads before conquering what little was left of Elam (because conveniently Assyrians raped Elamites in the ass, devastating their capital of Susa before the Persians invaded)

>the fuck does this even mean
That you are retarded, dude.
>Greek speakers had civilization
Every culture has its own civilization, what a stupid point of contention you are going for here.
>1500 BC
Are you trying to claim Minoans as Greek? Yeah that's not flying.
>I'm not
You are most definitely.
>Iranians were Nomads
What's your point? Every culture and ethnic group starts as nomadic before settling down, you troglodyte. If you are going to reach this far backwards into your ass trying to appropriate Minoans as Greeks to artificially inflate Greek relevance, that's pretty pathetic.
>little left of Elam
The Iranics that came to the Iranian Plateau had little hostile conflict with the Elamites regardless so what the hell does that have to do with the Assyrians razing Elamite power in the region? The Assyrians also got raped by the Medes, Persians, Babylonians, and Elamites in an allied coalition. But if your going to be this pedantic and stupid do I get to claim the entirety of Andronovo as Iranian? Cool, Iranians have had urban development since 2100 BC.
>before the Persians invaded
The Persians and other Iranian peoples lived largely in isolation from the Elamites on the Iranian Plateau. Also you don't know anything about Iranian history, so stop talking out of your ass.

The trade long predates the Phoenicians but the network collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age, and it was the Phoenicians who reestablished it.

Some modern historians are challenging the idea of the Medes and Persians being as closely related as was originally thought.

>Are you trying to claim Minoans as Greek? Yeah that's not flying.

What a retarded fuck, why am I losing time arguing with someone who has failed highschool tier history?

You miserable buffoon, Minoans and Myceneans were different civilizations, Minoans spoke an isolated language, conveyed in their Linear A script, Myceneans were bronze age Greeks, who built cities in Greece and conquered Crete in 1450 bc, their script, Linear B conveyed Greek, for fuck's sake, you're so stupid, fucking read a book you retarded fuck, this is something I knew since I was 14, what kind of education did you have?
What compels you to argue about ancient history when you confuse the Minoan civilization with the Mycenean one? How can one be so fucking retarded?
It's like confusing Etruscans with Romans.

>What's your point?

That point that some retard, probably you judging by your mind-blowing ignorance, argued that the Greek civilization copied everything from the Persians, who in reality were tribal tend dwelling nomads while Greeks lived in cities.

>n. But if your going to be this pedantic and stupid do I get to claim the entirety of Andronovo as Iranian?

If you're referring to the Bactria Margiana civilization, they were locals, the Iranians were foreign tribal nomads

in fact:

"The earliest known written record attributed to the Persians is from the Black Obelisk of Shalmaneser III, an Assyrian inscription from the mid-9th century BC,[40][41] found at Nimrud. The inscription mentions Parsua (presumed to mean "border" or "borderland")[42] as a tribal chiefdom (860–600 BC) in modern-day western Iran.[43][44"

>so you don't know anything about Iranian history, so stop talking out of your ass.

Lol, you think Persians were the Bactria Margiana people, stop wewuzing you retarded fuck, you don't even know the difference between Mycenean and Minoans, you don't know shit about ancient history, period, stop wasting everyone's time and go to sleep you dumb fuck.

About the Bactria Margiana complex urbanized people:

>There is archaeological evidence of settlement in the well-watered northern foothills of the Kopet Dag during the Neolithic period. This region is dotted with the multi-period hallmarks characteristic of the ancient Near East, similar to those southwest of the Kopet Dag in the Gorgan Plain in Iran.[2] At Jeitun (or Djeitun), mud brick houses were first occupied c. 6000 BC. The inhabitants were farmers who kept herds of goats and sheep and grew wheat and barley, with origins in southwest Asia.[3] Jeitun has given its name to the whole Neolithic period in the northern foothills of the Kopet Dag. At the late Neolithic site of Chagylly Depe, farmers increasingly grew the kinds of crops that are typically associated with irrigation in an arid environment, such as hexaploid bread wheat, which became predominant during the Chalcolithic period.[4]

They were farmers that originated in Southwest Asi, nothing to do with Aryans, Aryan people later expanded southwards from the Andronovo territory, but they never became urbanized, some individual Iranian lived among the local urbanized BMAC, but they were a minority, probably mercenaries or some shit, the overwhelming majority stayed nomadic.

This thread is a shitfest.

>romans this, greeks that
The Greeks rightly get a disproportionate amount of attention because of their incredible originality, above all in their intellectual culture but also in their art, drama, etc. The whole intellectual tradition of the Western, Orthodox and Islamic world is built on the foundations they laid down. Of course they didn't develop in isolation, not one of their achievements would have been possible without earlier developments, but that in no way undermines the significance of their achievements.

>what does western culture owe to the ancient persians?
Not much. I'd say we owe more to medieval Persians than the Achaemenids. The Persians were one of the many nomadic invaders of Mesopotamia who adopted the local civilization for themselves, and though the accomplished great things there wasn't much innovation. By the time the Acaemenid Empire came to power the Greeks were already pioneering things like philosophy and increadibly naturalistic art. In fact it seems that the Achaemenids were the ones being influenced by the Greeks (as they were influenced by all of their subjects), for example the Greek style of the pillars of Persepolis.

I think too many people make the mistake of equating Persia with 'the east'. Aside from sculpture and architecture (which were most heavily influenced by Egypt), Greek civilization was most heavily shaped by Levantine and Anatolian cultures (themselves influenced by both Egypt and Mesopotamia). Writing, coinage, trade, figure painting, and possibly philosophy to a certain extent as well as many other aspects of Greek culture, thought and technology had their origins in the east, but not in Persia.

No one is reading your bullshit, Golden Dawn kun.

Listen shitskin, go wewuzing in your muslim forums, I bet you'll be appreciated there, you have already been outed as an ignorant retard here who doesn't even know the difference between Minoans and Myceneans

>shitskin
I'm whiter than you, Turk rapebaby.
>muslim
Also not one of those either, nice try at the shitty attempt poisoning the well. Shouldn't you be trying to reintroduce your pederasty fetish back on /a/, subhuman?
>outed as an ignorant retard
You did a fine job of proving yourself as that, yes.

>strawman
>red herring
>another strawman
>false dichotomy argument
>more strawman
>moving the goal post with another strawman
Please stop breathing.

It's so embarrassing, not knowing the most basic things about history like the different between Myceneans and Minoans, at least shut the fuck, close tab and go cry in a corner, keep that last crumb of dignity, stop ridiculing yourself any further

My autistic buzzwords detector is sky rocketing

You can keep trying to conflate and falsely project arguments others have made in this thread on me all you want, you dipshit. But you broke the straw on the camel's back when you tried to compare Greeks with Sumerians, you olive-skinned retard.

No one is buying your bullshit.

>no argument
Cool.

Also I want to address another aspect of this thread; the Myceneaeans. Some posters seem to be using their accomplishments as evidence of the antiquity of Greek civilization. To a certain extent this is fine, since ethnically they were Greeks. But I think it needs to be stressed that, ethnicity aside, their civilization was completely different from that of the Iron Age Greeks. You can't really overestimate how complete the Bronze Age Collapse was; any aspect of the Mycenaean world which could be regarded as 'civilized' (complex, bureaucratic states, writing, a degree of urbanism, highly organised trade) completely disappeared and had to be either reinvented or reintroduced from the east. Consequently there is very little Mycenaean (and by extension Minoan) influence to be seen in later Greek civilization (despite the survival of some memory of Mycenaean times in Homer). The polis owes basically nothing to the Mycenaean citadel, Greek figure painting owes more to Mesopotamian than Mycenaean or Minoan frescoes, etc.

That said, even if we limit ourselves to the Iron Age Greeks, they're still a much older civilization than that of Persia. They were already highly accomplished in the Geometric period, and by 600 BC many of their greatest achievements were beginning to emerge.

>ck when you tried to compare Greeks with Sumerians, you olive-skinned retard.


Yeah I forgot, the Greeks actually came up with philosophy, were the first people to actually demonstrate mathematical theoremes, were the first ones to make highly realistic human sculptures, were the first to discover fluid physics and were the one to invent democracy and science, among other things.


>No one is buying your bullshit.

You realize you have outed yourself as a retard to anyone who has any interest in history, right?

Yeah, I know you don't have arguments, you autistic fuck.

Their religion and language was the same.

Not they guy you're arguing with, but what are you actually trying to say anymore?

>What a retarded fuck
You are, yes.
>why am I losing time arguing
Because you are a neckbeard revisionist trying to sound intellectual.
>miserable buffon
I'm sure saying this in your head sounded cool but as far as insults go its pretty pathetic, kiddo.
>Minoans and Myceneans were different civilizations
Which everyone with a brain cell is aware of. Where did I say in any of my posts they were the same or confused them as being the same civilization or culture? None. So what are you babbling about?
>argued that the Greek civilization copied everything from the Persians
Where the fuck did I say that in any of my posts, you shit-eating piss-ant?
>Bactria Margiana civilization
>make no specific or even ambigious reference to this culture; immediately respond by putting words in my mouth implicating it anyways falsely
So you really are dumb.
>Lol
Neck yourself.
>you think Persians were the Bactria Margiana people
Never said this. Again, do you have some kind of mental dysfunction?

>Yeah I forgot
You didn't forget anything, you are just really stupid.

>first settled civilization: Sumeria
>first record of using writings and creating literature: Sumeria
>first nation state: Sumeria
>first true culture: Sumeria
Yeah, these are totally not relevant though because you are dumb as hell and outed yourself as the retard who tried to make up ad hoc bullshit like Elamites and Iranics fighting each other.

Stop posting.

>Greek ultranationalist this butthurt Sumer predates their shit by thousands of years
Okay.

>neckbeard

Just shut the fuck up, you basically lowered yourself to the point of throwing random insults out of desperation, what a sore loser.

>Hurr durr where have I said that?

Mmm I wonder what could you have possibly meant by this:

""">1500 BC
Are you trying to claim Minoans as Greek? Yeah that's not flying."""

Lol, how does it feel?

At least delete your post before outright lying, you are such a pathetic buffoon, when cornered you resort to lying, you can't even admit you were wrong, your mental age is kindergarten tier.

>>first true culture: Sumeria

According to what criteria?

>>first settled civilization: Sumeria

Again, you're retarded settled people appeared since 9,000 bc in the Levant, ever heard about Jericho?

Wait, why am I even asking?

Of course not.