VIETNAM WAR (1955-1975)

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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Rick and Morty. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Rick's nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation- his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Rick & Morty truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Rick's existential catchphrase "Wubba Lubba Dub Dub," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Dan Harmon's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them..

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Vietnam ultimately won. Only butthurt idiots say otherwise.

Fuck off

He's right though, the North and the VK won. Explain how they didn't.

America won

>tfw we cant have a good vietnam thread without shitposters

Do you think JFK sanctioning the removal of diem/nhu was a mistake? Was Diem better than Theiu and the others?

There were so many mistakes in the handling of events leading up to the war, but supporting Diem definitely ranks up there. Everything the US did still pales pales in the face of the French colonization. hard to say how much could be avoided after that, but perhaps if everybody wasn't obsessed about muh communism, a peaceful solution would've been possible

Do you think FDR would've been able to pressure De Gaulle into pulling out of Indochina? From what i read he was more committed to decolonization than Truman, who was focused on muh commies

Follow up, the book Embers of War is a really interesting read about the first indochina war

America won

Anyone got a mega link?

I think its a bastardization of "We were winning when I left," which was a very common expression among vets.

Is that really wrong though? Most US forces left in 73, right after the massive N. Vietnamese Easter Offensive was repelled (albeit with US air support). I'm seriously asking, not trying to spout the "america won" argument

*easter offensive was 72, off by a year

France won

I mean they got 100 years worth of rubber and gook puss and fucked off before shit got really bad. so yeah they kind of did

I have zero faith in anything the French did post-ww2, the whole Asian theater was a vestigial colonial act for them. De Gaulle even had the nerve to denounce US involvement, talk about blindness.

This is a pasta from reddit?

Yeah that makes sense. Do you think Paris considered winning the war in Indochina as a way of redeeming themselves after their defeat a year into WWII

Funny thing is, an NVA vet was the guy who said it.

Merry Christmas, Mogey...

It's very hard to discern the motivations of French officials at the time, but yes, it seems likely. It's easy to find parallels in British colonial behavior, and they didn't even have the minority complex. It's really quite ironic in the worst of ways, France of all nations should be able to understand the value of sovereignty. What do you think? I keep getting the feeling that the communist devices of Vietminh never surpassed the population's desire for independence.

I absolutely think Indochina and Algeria both served as a way for France to reassert itself on the global stage.

And yeah, the Vietminh were definitely more nationalist than communist. If memory serves Uncle Ho appealed to Washington for help against the French and he only went to Moscow and Beijing after the Truman administration pivoted from decolonization to supporting France
(Source is Embers of War, don't quite recall the page)

bump

Burns is great

Why is Burns so villainized by libertarians?

Question for the people who have been watching the doco

Which song did Ken Burns choose to be the "Ashoken Farewell" for this series?

No one song. There's been one big hit of the time period for each episode. Tonight's was The Sound of Silence.

Are they showing each new episode daily?

yeah my history prof just told us about this class today

Roosevelets is a bunch of myths and lies and shouldn't be watched by kids because that will give them the wrong impression about the events.
The rest of his documents are fine I think.

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> Why is Burns so villainized by libertarians?

I can’t speak for Libertarians and I haven’t seen this Vietnam documentary but I did watch his Civil war documentary and thought it was shit.

Ken Burns has no understanding of military operations and thus simply glossed over them, concentrating instead on minor irrelevant issues like Blacks and women and anything other then the actual battles of the Civil War.

And I’ll add that he recycled the same pics over and over again, with this pic of Gettysburg being shown throughout the series anytime a battle was mentioned, whether it was in 1861 or 1865.

The guy should stick to baseball.

Really liking the doc so far. Absolutely love that they got the Vietnamese perspectives.

The doc talks about that, though personally I feel as if they're being too nice to Uncle Ho. Most of the bad shit the NoVis did have been blamed more on Giap and Lê Duẩn

>Army America is our friend
>Save pilot America truly is Viet Minh
What the fuk? I thought they were enemies?

They were our buds during WW2.

The French ruined that, because that's what French people do. They ruin things.

>Dude doesn't understand military stuff
>So he decides to concentrate on other stuff

I don't see anything wrong with this. It's much better than the alternative, having a guy who doesn't understand military stuff but pretends that he does.

> documentary about a war
> author doesn’t understand war

Was trying to figure out what that could possibly mean in Vietnamese, but then I noticed the other signs were in English.

bugs.. easy on the revisionism

What the fuck is this?

I believe its a Viet Minh pamphlet for guerrillas on how to treat downed U.S. pilots from WW2, when the Viet Minh were fighting the Japanese.

they didn't even explain the context of this photo. they just gave it that superficial treatment of how the war is vietnam was particularly brutal.

also, i'm about 2/3rds through the series and they have yet to even mention that the vietcong used a vast tunnel system to their advantage against the american and arvn forces.

Isn't it just a frame from recorded footage?

And then their secret service did their hardest to make the Americans fail because they were trying to cut into their heroin trade

yes, i believe so.

>I'll give you my pants to take me to china

>Isn't it just a frame from recorded footage?

If you’re going to use that well know photo as an example of the brutality of the Vietnam War, you need to explain the situation behind the photo, which is a S.Vietnamese army general executing an undercover Viet Cong agent in Saigon during the Tet Offensive, after he learned that a fellow officer’s wife, six children and his mother had been murdered by Viet Cong terrorists.

Simply showing the pic without any context, implies the S.Vietnamese / Americans were brutal simply for the sake of brutality and suggests the Viet Cong dindu nuffin or were at least justified in their actions.

I.e. it’s typical anti-American propaganda, which is what I was expecting from PBS and Ken Burns when I heard about this documentary.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nguyễn_Ngọc_Loan

>Blaming the French
Nah, we convinced you to commit because then you'd be in the area if Indonesia bullied us, this is a fact, for some reason America listened to Australian shitposting and it killed millions

>go to foreign country
>bomb the piss out of everything
>napalm entire villages
>spread chemical weapons on farms and forests
>massacre and rape civilians
>prop up corrupt and evil dictatorship
>photo emerges showing how dictatorship regularly executed people without trial

>hurr no context
>anti american propaganda!
>good american boys dindu nuffin

Your not entierly wrong but you cah hardly deny the americans and south vietnamese were incredibly brutal

Tet offensive will be next episode.

>Tet offensive will be next episode.

Which only proves my point made here that Ken Burns is a hack who just recycles photos willy-nilly without regard to the events he's presenting, as that photo was taken during the Tet Offensive, which isn't even being address until the _next_ episode.

It's pop-history bullshit.

>Franc-tireurs deserve a trial
????

I just watched the episode. All the context they gave was was that Lem, a north vietnamese agent, was brought before Loan, chief of south vietnamese police. AP camera men were there and Loan told another officer to execute Lem, and when the other officer hesitated to, Loan did it himself. They talked about the significance of the photo for bolstering the anti-war movement, and how it made the American people question "whether we were supporting the wrong guys over here", and brings home the brutality of the war.
Nothing was said about how Lem murdered the wife and children of another officer, and how Lem was found at a grave with 30-something dead civilians. Nor the fact that Lem was considered an illegal combatant and that a summary execution was justified under Geneva conventions.

Now, that the dust has settled, can we all agree that Ho Chi Minh was a legit good guy?

They do, deploying African Americans was a pretty bad idea after what the French colonials who looked the same to the average Vietnamese got up to

>I just watched the episode
How? It's not even out yet.

Shame about what happened after

Translation?

entire series is already out on torrent sites.

What the fuck was his problem? Did he simply not care or was he genuinely incompetent?

LBJ wasn't as gung-ho about it as the whole "all the way with LBJ" meme would have you believe, he just took really shitty advice

I don't get it. If the Vietnam war was so unpopular and bad, then why did so many organizations fund it? Bank of America, humanitarian groups, over a dozen trust funds, wtf America, why doesn't your government pay for its own wars?!

how many more years until we see this guy as a good guy?

I don't know, if you hate communists Stalin is a pretty great guy, he killed way more than anyone else

Institutionalized Ruskies love him. They must like BDSM there.

> What the fuck was his problem?

Incompetent and arrogant.

I remember reading about LBJ’s micromanagement of the war from the White House, where an incident was cited of Navy pilots reporting Soviet anti-aircraft missiles being unloaded on the docks at Haiphong Harbor in N.Vietnam, yet LBJ refused to allow them to be destroyed.

And a week later, those missiles were shooting down American planes over N.Vietnam…

And let’s not even get into the gigantic fuck up of his “Great Society”.

Haven't heard this joke ad nauseum

this
>killed Trotsky
>killed Bukharin
>killed Zinoviev, Kamenev, Tukachevsky, Radek, Yagoda, Yezhov etc. etc. all the way down the line
>some even say he killed Lenin
he was definitely /ourguy/

bugs.png

Quick reminder that the UK conducted a far more successful counter-insurgency operation against communists far earlier.
>Malayan Emergency
>inb4 ‘you lost that colony tho lol’

as a nationalist, i'd say yes he kind of was. He fought for the independance of his country as anyone who is being colonized will.
as a communist, no he wasn't, because you know, communism

The propaganda was a pretty desperate attempt. I don't think a single person in america gave one fat burger shit about the vietnamese one way or the other.

Wait next episode isn't until Sunday
REEEEEEEEEEEE
Why have a daily schedule for only part of the week? Might as well be once a week.

>ken burns does Vietnam

My fucking DICK

>it won't be available in Europe for months
AHH

For those who speak french the documentary is available on youtube on arteTv however in 9 episodes and not in 10 episodes like in the original US version

As a frogfag who knew so far few not to say nothing about vietnam war i'd say this doco is interesting.

My grandad fought as a volunteer in Indochina and saw several buddies of him getting killed. He showed me many photographs, dead soldiers, his pals, vietnamese civilians, landscape untouched or destroyed by war. I feel gratitude and great respect towards him because he fought for his comrades rather than "against communism" as he says in an ironic way. He still hates commies though. Dont know how to feel about it, i mean he was merely a soldier not a politician. I talk to him only about what is has gone through but when it comes to politics i quit because fuck if i was a vietnamese i would have stand up to the french then the americans. US did the same as well with the british during their Revolution.

Vietnam/USA war was far worse, you ask me, even on the homefront.
Is there any 'murican user that has a vietnam war veteran in his family here and tell me how is the gratitude within family. Is it taboo subject? Not?

I doesn't matter if its authorized under the Geneva conventions, you have to be stone fucking cold to kill a man like that when the fucking AP have their cameras directly trained on you.

>a study of war is JUST military tactics

The Vietnam war was a pointless slog for a cause nobody actually believed in at the front, but on the home front it basically destroyed American culture. With how much what Americans thought of the government in 1959 had changed by 1969 you'd think there had been some kind of blood soaked armed revolution.
And only total cunts hate on vietnam veterans for fighting a horrible war. It's not like they had any choice. Even if they dodged the draft, that'd be a black stain on their reputation for life, a lot of the ones that did dodged the draft by moving to Canada and many of them pretty much had to stay there, or move back to a part of America where nobody knew them.

More happens during a war than just battles and that's what Burns focuses on. His Civil War and WW2 documentaries focus more on the people involved in the wars and how it affected the country, which is a very important thing to talk about and I think he did a decent job at it.

Ok k. burns doesn't give any context but dont be naive thinking people who saw that picture at that time would have been willing to know the context. They didn't give a fuck. Once people saw the photograph, harm was done, no matter how much time you try to explain the actual context, harm is done. With no context given whatsoever this is pure anti-war propaganda in the 60's. i'm a europoor and it dont view this part of the doco as a modern anti-american propaganda as you say. he should have explained it more though but in his defense he shows massacres by North vietnamese just after or before, he shows clearly that massacres were not perpetrated by one side and not the other. Anti-war protesters were more concerned about collateral vietnamese victims than they were about almost forgotten US servicemen dying in the jungle and even less concerned by South vietnamese getting killed by hundreds of thousands.

What do you think about the Calley verdict? Should a lieutenant be blamed in such a clusterfuck situation (chain of command, poor morale, nebulous combat environment)?

It's all available on fmovies

It's easy to romanticize a character like Ho. Perhaps his only mistake was conflating independence and communism to the point that it scared the West, as well as not ensuring his pleas to the American administration reached the proper channels

The only difficult thing about him is the continued divide of north and south vietnam and the civil war lasting so long, but it's difficult to see any other outcome considering the French post-colonial chaos and oppression by Diem and government corruption

Just download the entire thing from pb already.