Lost history

surviving/reconstructed chinampas

If they were unable to save their culture - they were primitive. They hadnt writing (except most developed tribes), their "empires" were some miserable city states.
Revolutions against Spain meant partial victory of niggers and indians, so legends about great pre-Columbian civilizations started rising.

>Most of the precolumbian stuff is a bit like researching about late stone age/early copper age Europe
fixd

Yes. Much like the Gauls we can find evidence of their existence and their civilisation, but their world as they interpreted it is lost to us forever.

>I'd be ashamed of myself showing such ignorance and retardation

Is the tiny buzz you get from making such a response worth letting him know that he can post any old shit and get responses?
His post was the most noticed in this thread, and its all people posturing.
Just fucking ignore it god damn.

Considering you fall for the most obvious bait, I could ask the same of you.

Teotihuacan, the cultural center of pretty much all of mesoamerica at roughly the same era as the roman empire.

We are not really sure about much of what happened here: who build it, when it was founded, what happened that it was destroyed in the 6th century...

>their "empires" were some miserable city states.

This is a description of the Athenian empire.
Of course there were great pre-Columbian civilisations, doesn't have to be 'legend'.

If you have a problem with blacks, blame the people who imported them, wasn't like they decided to be there.

The early center of andes culture, south of lake titikaka.
In quechua mythology, this was the capital of the sun god Virachoca or Kon-tiki from where he ventured out to bring civilization to the tribes in the region.
It is usually dated to around 1500BC, but could very well be older.

>dickgirl
We have a word for it, you know

The Amazon rainforest was for a long time regarded as pristine wilderness with some hunter gatherer tribes living inside. The discovery of terra preta changed this view. Charcoal, organic waste and broken pottery was used to transform the poor clay soil in the jungle into fertile black soil.
Large areas are covered with this cultured soil and show that the river system had a high population and large parts of the forest were already under cultivation.
The receding forest also uncovered massive earthworks used to channel water and raise settlements.

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Phallofem?

what's going on there?

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#playboy
#SWAG

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who cares about bloody savages ?

Tihuanaco is dated to 1000 AD, Not 1500 BC for fuck's sake

Powhatan is very interesting.
Not to mention a lot of stereotypes about Indians come from this tribe.

Such as bow and arrows, savages, raids on colonials, etc.
I may be a tad biased because i'm from Virginia (their homeland) but it's incredibly interesting to me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Powhatan_Wars

The area around Tiwanaku may have been inhabited as early as 1500 BC as a small agricultural village.[5] During the time period between 300 BC and AD 300, Tiwanaku is thought to have been a moral and cosmological center for the Tiwanaku empire, and one to which many people made pilgrimages. Researchers believe it achieved this standing prior to Tiwanaku expanding its powerful empire.[1]

Wae victis my friend. Empires exert their control by cultural dominance throuh the sword.

This was Turnovgrad with its 3 citadels - Tsarevetz, Trapezitza
and Devingrad. It's the capital of the empire and in the 13th and 14th 90% of all books written in old church slavonic came from this city. It was razed to the ground by the Ottomans in 1390s.

Isn't this the entire eurangutan """"history"""" before they inherited ME culture?

Considering they had an offset of 15000 years compared to europeans, they were pretty much superior though.

>Mormon detected

Explain to me this historical offset theory

Be thankful, because there is a measure of bliss with that ignorance. With lost works and history of the ancient Mediterranean and Mesopotamia we have just enough information to show us what we are missing out on.

Simple.
Europeans settle on europe: 40000BC
Amerindians reached Canada: 25000BC; then after the deglaciation (10000 years later) populated the rest of the continent in 15000BC

European crops date from 10000BC.
Amerindian crops date from 6000BC.

Europeans getting the bronze from other culture in 3200BC.
Amerindians reached the bronze age in 500BC approximately.

Also as a great factor:
Horse domesticated in 3000BC approximately.

Knowing that the rests of all amerindian populations of 14000BC to 10000BC were pretty much paleolithical-tier and all lived as nomads, practiced some artistic manifestations as european paleo-populations. It's safe to assume they started again in the paleolithic and had to morph the environment of woods, jungles and coasts to their convenience, the same the europeans did with their environment for thousands of years before the Neolithic.

Then let's compare:
Europeans lurking around as nomads: 30000 years.
Amerindians lurking around as nomads: 9000 years.

Europeans reaching the bronze age from other cultures after the Neolithic stage: 6800 years.
Amerindians reaching the bronze age by themselves without the influence of a culture thousands of years ahead of development: 5500 years.

Let's check also how many years have humans modifyed the horse population and environment: 37000 years.
Let's check how many years have amerindians affected the camelids of South-America, when the spaniards came: 16500 years. They had less than half the time, yet they already domesticated diverse species for food and whool. Llamas can carry up to 50 Kg.

And I didn't mention the disadvantages such as continental isolation (north-south and east-west), Niño fenomena that destroys coastal villages, less cultures to trade with, and no naval technology, iron, horses, wheel, and writting from north-african nor anatolian cultures.

Thus, Incas were superior to europeans. Their higher development rate was superior to europeans'.

>theory
It's a fact, though.

Yes, there were fucking village, not the monumental structures you see today

>Tihuanaco is dated to 1000 AD
>HURR DURR THEY CAN DATE STONES
Those fagots date the shit around it and take a wild fucking guess.

yeah, what fucking idiots right?
just pulling numbers out of their ass like that

Oh your nationalistic ass sure knows better than the unbiased archaeologists who have spent decades excavating those sites, silly me

le

Development of every big is always complex. Little deviations are possible, but situation "nice science, great architecture, but shit weapons" is mythical (try to find examples since 17 century).
Spaniards started to arriving as small groups - criminals, traders, other unorganized scum and migration was rising gradually. So Indians had time to score and organize resistance.
If Conquest of 400 Spaniards was real, either Indean development or population number were low (i think both).

I'm wincing at your use of the word "cringe"

>criminals
>traders
>other unorganized scum
commie detected, did you fell for the myth that Ferdinand and Isabella ordered that the Columbus' crew would be jailed people only so they could get rid of them by sending them to the nothingness?

why don't we use this technology again?

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>had to morph the environment of woods, jungles and coasts to their convenience, the same the europeans did with their environment for thousands of years before the Neolithic.
They didn't. Romans were the ones starting to morph the environment in Europe. Before them it was just villages with their crops around, nothing more.
Also your whole theory is simplistic to say the least.

I highly doubt about existence of Columbus and whole role of Spanish state in initial colonisation. Its more likely Spanish royal propaganda "kangz gave New World for you, plebs". Pirates, private traders and settlers had to be first and they were first.
Dates of early discoveries (before 18 century) are very subject. First real Europeans reached America could not publish it.
New continents were named not Columbia, but Americas. And main part was named not Spanish or Portuguese, but Latin America.

It's called "America" because Amerigo got credit for proving that the Americas were new landmasses and not the easterly parts of Asia, as Columbus thought. And the term "Latin America" wasn't invented until well after most South American states had gained independence in the 1800's.

The Portuguese were the real heroes of world exploration desu
Then the other nations colonised those areas using the maps the Portuguese made
And stole away Portugal's colonies... fucking dutch

There are also aspects lost because European discovery came too late. The Mississippian cultures, specifically, which are believed to have abandoned their developed agriculture societies in favor of the increasingly prevalent buffalo encroaching from the west. Some forest botanists believe if colonization came only 500 years later, what is now the eastern US would have been almost entirely converted to plains by the burning of forests to create grasslands and game barrens.

Yeah no, in Peninsular Italy itself the terramare culture changed the landscape a lot to build massive towns spanning several hectares and building huge ditches and channels

Tenochtitlan was just half of the island.
Tlatelolco was the other one.

Supposedly they were both city-states. How does that even work?

>superior to Europeans
I think it's pronounced "extinct" isn't it?

Like Buda and Pest.

Buda and Pest were never city states, just cities.

>criminals
>traders
>other unorganized scum

A large number of conquistadores and encomenderos were hijos segundones that couldn't aspire to be hidalgos, aka noble men without glory. Their only chance was discovery.

fucking troglodyte

Deforestation happened in many regions across Europe during the bronze age

This is the most interesting thing about ameridians. People have always been trying to save the Rain Forest from human influence but apparently pre Columbian Americans were living in the rain forest before anyone thought. They were even able to flourish In a part of the world seen as inaccessible today. That's sort of why I'm ok with Brazil attempting to utilizing the Rain Forest to thier advantage.

The Spaniards were amazing at destroying and assimilating entire civilizations/groups of people.

Take the Guanche for example, more than likely the only of their kind or at least closer related to the early ancestors of the Berbers but now they're totally gone and their history largely remains a mystery.

Hell, we're not even sure what they really looked like

>The Mississippian cultures
De Soto made an expedition through there with 600men, 200horses and a few dozen pigs.
They had to fight their way through the mississippi area, filled with settlements and many many indians.
They went further west, and de Soto died the painfull death he deserved.
But since the spaniards and their pigs were so filled with diseases, that they proved to be efficient biological weapons, caused a breakdown of the settlements and left a tiny percentage (5-10%) of the population alive, who said fuck this, we're off hunting buffalos in a postapocalyptic world with these strange animals we got from that smelling mob with shiny skin and the power of thunder.

A few hundred years later, the first burger stumpble around in these "wild lands" and think it was always empty, except for some savages riding around.

The high buffalo and passenger pigean populations were btw. most likely there, because they were not hunted that much any more, so nothing stopped them to reproduce.

Congratulations on your successful shitpost, people just me ignore me when I pretend to be retarded.

>That's sort of why I'm ok with Brazil attempting to utilizing the Rain Forest to thier advantage.
What?

It's not the Indians using the rainforests, it's multinational corporations displacing the Indians. There was a massacre of Brazilian Amazon Indians by unknown mercenaries just a week ago.

They didn't kill them all, "just" the ones that fought or didn't want to convert.
The rest assimilated into the canary population
native language and customs was mostly outlawed, so there
Some things survived though. There are still pastors, grazing their goat herds (traditional breed) up in the steep volcano valleys for example.
They used long staffs to get up and down fast and some kept doing so.

Here's an video about it. That old guy also looks like he's got a good part canary blood.
youtu.be/WpAj_WFOJng

Canary islands is a fascinating place in general. If you got time, go there. Especially La Palma & La Gomera

>naval technology, iron, horses, wheel, and writting from north-african nor anatolian cultures.

But they did have all that.
Naval tech was limited but was there.
As for iron, it's important to note that amerindians maimed their opponents in warfare for human sacrifices, thus they used obsidian blades and brutal slingshots. They did use iron in their architecture.
They also did have the wheel, per Aztec toys, they just didn't need much of them since they would get around in chinampas and had no such beasts for their usage.
Mayas had writing, it's also important to note that there are new discoveries regarding an Aztec and Incan written language

Pizaro had the water gardens destroyed and
They thought that they had the "superior" agriculture and started to till the earth.

This is actually one of the biggest problems all around the earth since Antiquity, because when you open the earth, you make it vulnerable for erosion of wind and weather.
The fertile soil that we all depend on gets washed out to the sea.
Quite often the collapse of great empires (for example Rome) coincided with the total depletion of the local soil.

If we used traditional agriculture methods like chinampas and food forests in combination with no-till agriculture, local plant breeding for optimal adaption, planted many more trees in general, used proper water retention, diversified crops etc. we could feed double the current world population with local production and would beat back the deserts.
REGENERATIVE AGRICULTURE BITCH!

That's just an option that is not that good for you, if you are an international agrochemical cooperation that wants to monopolise world food production.

It can't be mechanized, so wages would make it non competitive.

and nothing of value was lost

>Organize resistance
>when every while they suffered 60-80% death rate epidemics
Some Inca kings died by disease, heir sons also died thanks to the epidemics.

That's bullshit.
Industrial agriculture runs on so many subsidies.
Small scale farms are not outcompeted by having to pay wages, but by not receiving any gibbs, having trouble getting the capital to even start out and being assraped by ridiculous laws.
Also, guess who has their lobbyists "advising" politicians about agriculture legislation.

they do, it is just not economical

>I know better than agronomists even though I have no technical data or proof
let me guess, they are in cahoots with the evil corporations

well that's because of people like you who keep voting for commies

Hmmm I'm listening, tell me more.

>no rebuttal

post the peer reviewed study by an agronomist proving soil erosion occurred to such an extent that it was a major factor leading to the fall of the roman empire so I can rebuke it

I know what real scientists working on these subjects have to say about this, how different methods of agriculture work and how the compare long term and how you set up these systems.

There are BILLIONS living in areas that experience more drought, flooding and desertification each year.
What do you think will happen, when they run out of their last food and water?
Large scale, monoculture, plough based agriculture contributes a lot to all of that, because it destroys fertile soils and soil life.

If you reforest and make the right steps to support the ecosystem, then you will BUILD healthy soil and be able to farm the land for millennia while getting better and better yields.
Just like these cultures They managed to support huge populations on very poor soil, because they actively improved it

You can even keep your tractors and the cash crops your used to, just switch to methods that don't destroy the basis of your lands fertility!
Ecological illiteracy is a big problem here, because it's hard to understand the underlying problem.

muh gommunists

Most agronomists have zero power to implent any ideas. The ones that do are employees of said corporations so yes, they are literally in choots with them.

Now THIS is the high level of discourse I come here for
eurangutans btfo

That's probably the most comprehensive publication:
books.google.de/books?hl=en&lr=&id=D2im0qYGG2YC&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=roman empire soil erosion&ots=tyJi7FL7mg&sig=W7wQQZAxrZwlzTCGZU26k5JX84M#v=onepage&q=roman empire soil erosion&f=false

tl;dr
>civs start in river valleys
>till in valley
>river renews fertility
>more people
>need more farmland
>deforest & till hillside
>slowly erode out topsoil
>get less yield
>need to expand
>repeat with new areas
>become really really big
>have diminishing yields and increasing populations and more and more people in cities
>help set the stage for destabilization and eventual collapse

>fuck this, we're off hunting buffalos in a postapocalyptic world with these strange animals we got from that smelling mob with shiny skin and the power of thunder.
Are you saying it was like some sort of stone age Mad Max?

The Loess plateau project in pic related here: is so far the biggest attempt to regenerate an ecosystem
youtube.com/watch?v=sK8JNXHcBMA
It shows that we have the means to reculture many of the degraded and dryland landscapes and make them fertile and productive again.
We have the means to reestablish ecosystems, build soil, recharge groundwater and have increasing yields at the same time.

Here is a good prospect of the geopolitical implications of not having enough food for all:
youtube.com/watch?v=Mc_4Z1oiXhY

So we have at this point to decide between implementing large scale regeneration in ALL degraded ecosystems or have a few billion dead in the next decades.

Back to something more pleasant:
There were once huge Chestnut Forests in the east of the US. All tribes living in they region would find the forest floor each autumn full with a good stable food for the winter.
That is pretty much the idea of tree crops: once they are big enough, all you have to do is harvesting.
In the 20th century the Chestnut Forests were annihilated by (surprise!) a disease that they europeans brought there.

Pic related is an Inca plant breeding lab.
The terraced circles form distinctive microclimates by different exposures to wind and sun and varying humidity.
If you have a plant that you want to survive further up the mountain, you put it in the deepest ring first, select the strongest plant, plant the seed in circles further up, select again, move further.

>be massive empire
>Somehow creates great stone works without ever making it past the bronze age of their civilization
How did they do it?

>Be massive empire
*Aztec

Amerindian superiority of course.

turns out which material you work is not necessarily proportional to achievements in other fields and general development

Pic related is how people got around on lake titicaca since ancient times

Societies that work stone are good at working stone, crazy I know. Monumental architecture got WORSE after the neolithic.

>Monumental architecture got WORSE after the neolithic.
What did he mean by this

perhaps the most minimal amount of city-stating so as to be regarded as a city-state by our definition? if they existed so near by, they must have held an alliance or treaty for a long time. wasn't tlatelolco part of the triple alliance?

Apparently going from Kamchatka to Alaska restarts the clock, but going from Ethiopia to Kamchatka doesn't.

>Europeans settle on europe: 40000BC
wrong

>15000BC

Irrelevant, Europeans and Americans are on the exact same technological level at this point.

>Doesn't ever use bronze en masse after reaching bronze age
>Doesn't ever get past the bronze age
>Sacrifices humans because of long drought periods
>Never has to deal with winter periods, but STILL never advances their civilization out if the bronze age
Amerindians have a very high rate of diminishing returns, it seems.

>We could increase our food output if we just used these ancient secret farming techniques from these long dead (i.e. failed) people who were all illiterate, constantly dying from starvation, and were lucky to live past 30!

Fuck off retard with your noble savage kikery. You sound like one of those shills for "ancient chinese medicine" that you find in 3rd world countries trying to scam tourist. Protip: We already make more food than we consume. Any starvation comes from corrupt governments fucking with food shipments. I bet you think rooftop gardens are a great idea too and we should all be forced to to adopt one.

So in other words you are making a massive assumption. Got it.

We invented something better.

>mountains
>doesn't mention any date to compare
Hmm...