What do you think about separatist movements having referendums and declaring independence...

What do you think about separatist movements having referendums and declaring independence? Would you say that the people have that right? To chop up a state? Is it philosophically legitimate?

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elpais.com/ccaa/2012/12/28/catalunya/1356700734_557782.html
elpais.com/ccaa/2013/09/10/catalunya/1378832347_330975.html
elpais.com/ccaa/2014/08/01/catalunya/1406913058_166638.html
politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/12/17/actualidad/1450350123_189974.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Independence_of_Brazil
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area
twitter.com/AnonBabble

They must fight for it

Spain is largely an artificial country. Catalonia was independent for centuries (under the name "Aragon") before union with Castille. And at several different times Catalonia has broken off temporarily (most recently in the 30s) from Spain. They have a different language and culture, and obviously there are political differences. So yes, I support Catalan independence.

The only way to secure your future is to fight for it. No other power will give up whats their without a fight. No revolution succeeded without bloodshed.

Smaller countries in the developed world seem to be better off. Irish are now wealthier than British. You can smoke weed in the Netherlands. New Zealand has a less overbearing state than Australia.

For that reason alone it might be a good idea. However something tells me Scotland, Catalonia and Quebec would end up with shitty socialist governments.

>for centuries
Spain has been United longer than it was split into Christian kingdoms

>Irish are wealthier than the briiish because the British gave them a massive loan at the beginning of the recession
>New Zealand has no industry so pretty comfy
>Australia must be harsh to stay united
>Netherlands has always been more left leaning and due to high incomes has less crime

I'm for it. I'm a big proponent of localism and believe the world should be made up of a hundred of smaller Republicans. Basically Rousseau

>Is it philosophically legitimate?
Fuck are you talking about? The people's right to chose their own state and government is one of the fundamental underpinnings of modern political theory. It is the only legitimate stance, in certain ways.

do you think Catalunian independence will starts a trend of small republics breaking away?

You know Aragon still exists today and it is located where the kingdom of Aragon was born right? Cataluña is not Aragon.

Spain has always been a nation of nations
> b-but the catalonians and basque have a different language and culture
so what, neither their language or culture are banned, neither they are oppresed or burdened

Yes, but it was never really united before then.

catalonia was always an integral and necessary part of the aragonese kingdom though. without it aragon would have been nothing

National sovereignty is stupid. All that matters is whether the civilians have a better life. If we need to invade a country to help the citizens, whoever should do it. Countries should not be allowed to break off unless they can do better for the people than the current government. And how they're supposed to figure that out is unfortunately almost impossible.

Well I don't think you can really say that because absolutely none of the current nation states were unified by their modern borders before Spain was except for France. By that logic should we dissolve Germany into the 100s of city states that formed the H.R.E.? Or Dissolve Italy?

I think it's good

>Spain is largely an artificial country.
Well.
Countries ARE artificial.

As far as the Catalonian thing goes, I have mixed feelings. I do believe a group should have a right to self determination within a country through the way of an agreed on objective referendum, but that is not what I am seeing in Catalonia. The Catalonian referendum was passed into law by the Catalonian generalitat without the correct legal background, and it was struck down as illegal by the top most court in the region. Nevertheless, the generalitat decided to move forward with their proposition, taking it "to the people" with the help of the anticapitalist group CUP. What this has created is a state of what I see as pseudo mob rule, where non-supporters of independence in the region feel threatened by the crowd outside and to speak out against the group that is being the loudest. They did try to do a referendum a while back, but what ended up happening is that turnout was relatively low with independence being a favorite. The generalitat has used this as proof of the will of the people, while not taking into account the low turnout as being the remain faction refusing to vote on what they see is a ludicrous proposition. This is not like the Scottish referendum in which both sides agreed on the terms before the referendum. The Govern of Catalonia basically said "screw you, we don't care if we break the Spanish law, because we already consider ourselves apart". Although I don't like to use the word treason because its imho a bit too strong, these are still Spanish citizens who are essentially saying that they will de facto no longer adhere to Spanish law. To me, it just seems like a populist group pitching the victim card about them being opressed by the Spanish government to be able to remain in power. What I have portrayed is my stance on the issue. And yes,

t. Spaniard

We should dissolve Germany into hundreds of small caliphates

Yeah probably, smaller states are more efficient and representative.
Frankly, the city state model seems the best way to go in terms of prosperity, rights, freedom, etc.

I think the people of a region should have the right to choose who rules them, yes. Who gives the state the right to keep people who don't want to be in it hostage?

Tl dr

Referendum good. Illegal populist referendum bad.

The people who have a better life because of the state.

Nobody speaks aragonese in aragon tho, it's too cucked by the eternal madrileño.

Oh im sorry ,lad
I was just trying to get some (You)

>What do you think about separatist movements having referendums and declaring independence?

All that much easier for corporate powers to take them over.

>This is not like the Scottish referendum in which both sides agreed on the terms before the referendum
If you really are a spaniard you should also now that this cannot happen in Spain. Catalans are try to secede illegally and Scots try to secede legaly because it's illegal in Spain and legal in Scotland. It's fine if you think that law goes before self-determination (which is what I'm taking from your post), but you should be honest and clear about it instead of mixing it with sentimentalism about treasons and oppressed non-supporters.

...

If the people in those countries want them to be dissolved? Yes.

Some more than others, though.

Most people's opinions of it has nothing to do with ""the will of the people" , it has more to do with "I want people who agree with me in power as the bottom line".

For example-
>Austrian plebescite is considered illegitimate because you had members of the Nazi party at certain voting booths, therefore it HAD to be rigged
In fact that is the way with most democratic conditions
>Drumpf WON? RUSSIANS MUSTVE """HACKED""" THE ELECTION
>Inb4 pic related

If you make a legal referendum impossible, you make an illegal one inevitable.

Scottish secession would be no more legal than Catalonian. Scotland doesn't have the power to unilateraly secede, only the British Parliament can grant them independence. It's just politically untenable to force them to stay in UK.

The catalan independentist movement is mostly advancing thanks to a coalition leaded by the right-wing party. They will probably eventually be replaced in this leadership by more left-leaning parties but that's because the thing is becoming stagnant and independentists are gonna shift leaders constantly trying to keep it alive, not because the movement has any leftie objectives. The socialist party of Catalonia is one of the fiercest enemies of the movement.

So Cameron allowed Scotland to have an illegal referendum? Because the catalan referendum is illegal.

No, they just hacked the democratic party's computers, and then spread damaging info through wikileaks.

Hacked and did what exactly?

Something about how they didn't want Sanders to get the nomination, if I remember correctly.

>did what exactly?

That's the funniest part. They are saying the Russians hacked the elections and then showed the truth about the party to the populace.

I have no words for how asinine that really is.

Do those people think the truth isn't true if comes from Russians?

I am currently of the belief that city-states are the most effective form of government, but using city-states as the basis of future governance has two big problems (besides the initial implementation) -

1. There will be the question of what happens with rural areas. For instance, if America is broken up into city-states, would we focus the new administrative divisions around the top 20 cities? The top 50? 200? There will always be some territory outside of those current city limits; would rural areas get a completely different form of government?

2. Decaying a federal bond that binds together large countries invites aggression. Being united is being strong, and being strong dissuades invasion. The question isn't if city-states will go to war with each other, its when - I guarantee some fuckheads from the Bronx and South Boston will start a war almost immediately if the USA dissolved.

it is spoken in the aragonese pyrenees

Cameron allowed Scotland to have a nonbinding referendum. Had Scotland voted yes he could have come out the next day and just say "Yeah, no" and that would have been that.

"Nobody" in the same way you don't really mean all the world when you say todo el mundo. As in it's a dying language.

They also peddled a lot of bullshit along the way. That's the part that's got people up in arms mostly.

What bullshit?

For instance the story that Clinton was affiliated with a child trafficking ring that originated on Russian news outlets and was spread by Trump's surrogates. Or the idea that she wanted to go to war with Russia as soon as she got elected. There was a flood of that shit throughout 2016.

The thing is, the government wasn't even given a chance to negotiate. The Generalitat just said "this is happening, deal with it" and that was that.

What's there to negotiate? They want to make a referendum. Madrid doesn't. There's no middle ground here, it's not like the spanish government wants a negotiated referendum. "Negotiate" here means bartering what the price would be for all this to stop and for one single time in their history the Generalitat doesn't want that.

It is wrong and its mostly because of foreign sponsors who interested in breakup of others.

catalonia is not a real country since its just spanish and other immigrants castile not a real country since theyre just from the latins and rome/italy not a real country since it was just greel settlers, and greece not a real country since they're just descendents of indo-europeans, and indo-europeans not a real people since we all came from africa, so really ethiopia is the only real country :thinking:

Oh, it's true. But it's just that they never had the chance to hear the truth about the Republicans, and the deals they were pulling with the Russians to make sure they didn't.

Half truth ain't better than a lie.

They've got nothing to negotiate, a referendum is illegal under the Spanish Constitution, no?

They speak Spanish. Some speak Catalan. It is a separate language, but it's not wildly different from (Castilian) Spanish, and they are mutually intelligible unless you're some illiterate village pleb. It's kind of transition language between French and Spanish, as they use some words that are more typical in French.

I agree that they will need to fight for their independence, especially with the Spanish state so uncooperative (which I don't blame them for being). I am not generally in favour of their independence, but I'm neither Catalan or even Spanish, so really whatevs. I just don't find it legitimate or convincing nowadays. It's not like they are oppressed (as in the past), they have tonnes of autonomy. It's just emotional stirring of shit up.

I will admit that part of my sentiment also come from the Catalan independence people I've met who are usually annoying as fuck.

It will strengthen the supra-'federal' EU, in that it would weaken current nation states. I'm sure there are pros and cons to this.

I don't think many small republics is a bad thing, but then they are also vulnerable to greater enemies.

>2012
Duran i Lleida asks Rajoy to begin conversations with Mas.
>elpais.com/ccaa/2012/12/28/catalunya/1356700734_557782.html

>2013
Mas hopes that the acts of the Diada will make Rajoy more prone to negotiation.
>elpais.com/ccaa/2013/09/10/catalunya/1378832347_330975.html

>2014
Mas makes 23 request to Rajoy
>elpais.com/ccaa/2014/08/01/catalunya/1406913058_166638.html

>2015
Rajoy offers dialogue to Mas.
>politica.elpais.com/politica/2015/12/17/actualidad/1450350123_189974.html
That´s just talking about the last years in which the Referendum became a thing, but they could have talked way before...

>learning some stuff is worse than learning no stuff
Fuck offmang

Every community has a right of self determination

and this include the south of the United States

>Euronigs won't fight for independence.

Pretty much. Independence is won at the barrel of a gun, not the stroke of a pen.

That said fucking lmao at the idea of Catalonian independence. I don't even know what the fucking reasoning is. Is it just a bunch of whiny elitists in a wealthy area trying to break free like with Calexit or some shit?

Wow, is telling me to fuck off seriously the best you can come up with?

Restoring Prussia and breaking up the Geographic Expression would be good, yes.

Historically, they've always been independent, they have their own language, their own culture, they were pretty oppressed under Franco and they're wealthy enough to pull it off.

Because thery're fundamentally different cultures with different political expressions, the Scots were mad because the SNP could get fuck all outside scotland and neither party had to seriously accomodate them.

Except they didn't, and the DNC retracted that statement because saying that the script kiddie had some Russian code from the mob does not mean the KGB hacked the election?

Like I was saying, people.dont care about the voice of the people.they just care about being right and having their side dominate others.

What about Portugal with Brazil?

Something like 4 people in Trump's campaign had been talking to Russian officials, and then lied about it. Why would they lie if they had nothing to hide?

Putin's in this up to his balls, he wanted NATO undermined so he could do in the Baltics what he did in Ukraine.

>Except they didn't, and the DNC retracted that statement because saying that the script kiddie had some Russian code from the mob does not mean the KGB hacked the election?
Except they didn't, and the DNC retracted that statement because saying that the script kiddie *who hacked them* had some Russian code *he bought* from the mob does not mean the KGB hacked the election?

First they tried to say that they tracked the IP address to Russia thus saying that the Russian hacked the DNC, which is retarded because hackers typically hide behind proxies and manipulate where there IP can be traced to in multiple different fashions.

There was violence
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Independence_of_Brazil

>Why would they lie if they had nothing to hide?
Except none of them lied? Trump Jr talked with a Russian - someone who wasnt even tired to the Russian government and who was cleared to move to the US by Obama himself, and even worked with the DNC. Other than that, all people have are calls with Russian officials that weren't catalogued properly therefore "drumpf is a Russian agent and the DNC was hacked by Russians" even though there is no evidence for either claim. Hell, the right is currently criticizing Hillary Clinton and her team for supposedly colluding with the Ukrainians.

It's all just a shit-flinging contest to call your opposition un-american.

>ignores my argument

They tried. They got fucked.

>Irish are now wealthier than British
They did nothing by themselves, they received fucktons of euromoney (and the niggers that go with it) and they used it to bury their land with plastic and concrete. A catastrophic success if you ask me.

You can't do that today in western europe. If you're white and get violent (even in self-defense) you've already lost.

Of course they speak spanish retard, it's mandatory to learn it at school. And then there's the descendants of immigrants from the rest of the country, but they're mostly assimilated one thing is to make them learn how it is there and the other to forbid them to speak spanish with their moms.

The union of the country is not negotiable

Partly, the economic reasons are there and nobody is gonna deny it. But there's been revolts since the time the region was the mexico of Europe so it's not really a valid criticism.

not the USA, we are forever

Then we agree: there's nothing to negotiate.

It's sad but there will never be a catalan independence, they've already lost. What most people (specially outside Spain) doesn't know is that francoist and post-francoist Spain promoted immigration to Catalonia from poorer parts of Spain. Today half of the region (and growing) has spanish as it's native language and has spanish surname. This is similar to what China does with dangerous regions and if I was a /pol/tard I would call it soft ethnic cleansing. Being more free than places like Tibet, Catalonia has tried to assimilate these peoples but it will be futile. You can convince them to learn catalan but they will never become like those who were already there. This is why catalans play the economy card, trying to recruit this people who will never be convinced by genuine cultural/national reasons. And even that is not working, the yes/no ratio is pretty similar to the catalan/spanish one and cities and neighbourhoods where spanish parties (or their regional version) are elected are those that are famous for having a lot of immigrated people and their descendants. This is why independentism is more strong in irrelevant rural towns than in Barcelona and this is why catalanism is late for the independence train.

I should mention that it's extremely politically incorrect to address this subject in Catalonia. Even (or specially) independentists will ostracize you, maybe because they know it's true.

Yea and that was MY point, you salty cunt. They aren't some totally foreign population under the cruel genocidal Spanish yoke.

Everyone was oppressed under Franco, m8. Well, except the Church and Franco fanboys.

I guess I just don't buy this because to me, as a Burgerstani, it's a splitting hairs thing and is as dumb to me as the pie-in-the-sky calls for Texas or California to secede... or any state since most have developed their own cultures, dialects and whatnot at least partially unique from one another.

Victors were less oppressed than losers and pretty much everyone in Catalonia was a loser.

>if a country is not genociding you it gets to keep you

A new worlder cannot understand it or any european nationalism, not even those of already constituted nations.

>The people's right to chose their own state and government
Then what the fuck do you do after population movements like in the Balkans? Switch borders constantly?

So Mexicans can just take Latino-majority areas away from USA?

>Implying they aren't already
They are literally coming over hear, driving down the real wages, just so they can pay remittances back to Mexico. Which neoliberal love btw

Someone make it stop

They can try, sure

Sorry man it's just utterly ridiculous. Spain's been united for half a millennium at this point. It's a completely different situation from the constantly fluid Germany or the still relatively separate (and young) Italy.

it's literally reconquista from anglo scum who stole the land 150 years ago. it has always been mexican lebensraum but its only in the last 50 years that these lands have fulfilled their demographic destiny as mexicans now have the body count to colonize was was always rightfully theres and the eternal Anglo's demographic assault is rolled back because their declining birthrates and because they never really populated the western lands so densely in the first place. they just got lucky because they got there first and then legally (may i say artificially) enforced mexicans from populating until the last few decades.

Don't you have a nap to be taking, Paco?

Lmao people think western governments are democracies. Literally dead

>Spain's been united for half a millennium at this point.
"no", dynastic unity is NOT the same as cultural, political and economic unity. The lands of aragon was effectively independent from Castile even though they shared a monarch. Aragon had a different political economic and social system. It's very much how like Scotland and England shared a monarch for a century until a series of events brought about political unification of the two lands. The Basque lands were very much the same. The dynastic union was well done but afterwards, actual attempts to forge the iberian monarch into an actual nation state united by cultural norms, among other things, stagnated for hundreds of years. It was really a failure of a state-building project.

pic related. Catalan autonomy was lost over 200 YEARS after the so-called "unity" of spain had been effected.

>Always
>implying

That would be great for the US to be repartitioned along metropolitan lines and replace old land title demarcations and It would be based on real geographic and economic connections instead. It would also help most problems of discord between urban and rural governance.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_statistical_area