>Childhood is idolizing Justinian's reconquest of Italy. >Adulthood is realizing a romanized Ostrogothic Kingdom, with Roman institutions and Latin as their language made more sense.
The so-called "Fall of Rome" has more things in common to a civil war rather than an "invasion" or a conquest by the "barbarians", whose only dinstinguishable difference to a Roman citizen of the time was their forename (even Theodoric named himself Flavius Theodoricus), but is there really a difference or can you really state that an Illyrian peasant is "more Roman" than a Pannonian Magister Militum?
To sum up what Justinian basically did was to allow the muslim conquest of North Africa, and the retrogression of Western culture in Italy due the weariness of both the Ostrogoths and the Eastern Romans, which made possible the L*mbard conquest of Italy.
Landon Nguyen
>I grew up so i became a wehraboo cuck I doubt that
Landon King
What's wehraboo? I don't speak reddit.
Alexander Ramirez
>Post explains why the Ostrogoths, altough of german background, beared more resemblance to a Roman of the V century, or had a Roman ethos >wahahaha german cuck werhaboo Just admit it you only wanted to spit that meme out, didnt you
Henry Hill
Germans are and can be as Roman as the Aztecs. Germany was Europe's misfortune, not its Rome
Gavin Bennett
good night bumo
Zachary Cook
>To sum up what Justinian basically did was to allow the muslim conquest of North Africa Byzantine North Africa probably put up more of a fight than Vandalic NA ever could, considering it was already in the process of disintegration.
Besides, Carthage freaking save the Empire by spawning Heraclius.
Benjamin Long
Just accept the fact that your beloved Belisarius and Justinian totally fucked up in Italy and destroyed what was left of the old roman institutions that were still there.
Anthony Ward
good morning bump
Grayson Wilson
>Ostrogoths, altough of german background, They were Swedish.
Owen Collins
Sucking up to Hitler and praising their efforts even when they are a complete failure
Jayden Campbell
The Vandal Kingdom was a shitfest and so was Ostrogothic Italy after the death of Theodoric. Justinian was a disaster but the barbarians weren't better. At least Justinian didn't make his empire collapse, only bankrupted it.
Ryan Allen
shut up they were slavs
Parker Jenkins
>christians are fucking everything up so lets send in christian germans to fix it misery loves misery, I don't like christians
Nathan Morgan
Go back to beyond Danube
Gabriel Anderson
We wuz vikangs!
Aiden Mitchell
People on this board don't understand the difference between German tribes and the modern region called Germany
Ayden Cruz
whom are you refering to? the user you replied or the user that this user replied?
Jack Ross
and depleted its manpower fighting useless wars
Jonathan Morgan
Swedes are Northern Germans, Ostrogoths were definitely in the Eastern Germanic camp. The old place names they left behind as Germanics spread to the continent ought not to be taken too seriously; the denizens of Bornholm are hardly Burgundians.
Levi Wilson
Wielbark Culture was literally Swedish-like in terms of genetics. Nothing to do with Germans.
Levi Bell
Justinian was an opportunistic cunt regarding the Ostrogothic issue using a that petty excuse to start the War.
On the other hand, why would he need a justificationg to wage war against the Ostrogothic Kingdom of Italy? After all it was, in the eyes of the time, rightful Roman clay.
Does this mean a certain degree of legitimacy of the Ostrogoths?
Noah Adams
Agreed, the same with Vandalic North Africa, though that probably would've been conquered regardless like Iberia
Logan Miller
>Does this mean a certain degree of legitimacy of the Ostrogoths?
Almost all of the barbarian kingdoms were legitimate they were just different entities than the Roman state. The Res Publica was basically considered an objective, eternal state tied to the land. The Barbarian kingdoms were temporary usurpers or protectors and an evolution of the Foederati system.
Were they the actual Empire though? No, that's clearly where the line was drawn even up until the Carolingians and later
Alexander Rogers
>Usurpers
This is what I mean, if they were considered invaders why did he need to legitimize his wars with the deposal of Amalasuntha? I mean he surely could have appealed to Roman nationalism or sentiment
Luke Reed
I was making the case that they were a natural evolution of the Foederati system and their position was a lot more complex than invaders occupying stolen land. They aren't the Roman Emperor and they aren't exactly the proper Roman state, but they were close to being an appendage of late Roman governing and society. The same way a tribal king would be given both a Roman position while still retaining kingship over his people, it's just a matter of scale and the level of that position
Benjamin Ortiz
Are you seriously arguing that culture & language = genetics? There isn't even an attested mention of Svealand until after the Ostrogoths cease to exist.
Isaiah Russell
The conquest of Italy occurred long before the Muslim conquests. In reality the timing of the wars with the Sassanids was a larger influence, though technological and climactic changes would have favored the Arabs in any case.
Your argument has merit if a stable Italian polity had arisen with ties to Constantinople which aided them against the Muslims. Naval power could have prevented them extending across North Africa.
Liam Scott
They were not Germans. They originated in Sweden and came through Poland and Ukraine.
Daniel Adams
Sw*des are Germanic. N*rdic paganism is Germanic.
What is confusing you?
Joshua Wilson
Nobody can actually be this stupid.
Germanics, as a group, originated in Southern Scandinavia and spread outwards. As the group became too large to remain cohesive, the language begins to fractionate and the different tribes are grouped in West {Angles, Dutch, modern Germans}, North {Danes, Swedes, Norwegians}, and East {Goths, Burgundians, Vandals, etc.}.
In the case of this map example, the Western germanics are fractionated into the Saxon group (red), the Dutch/Frankish group (orange), and the Allemanic group (yellow).
Christian Baker
>Ostrogothic Kingdom lol normally, invaders dont adopt the custom/culture/religion/language of the invaded, its the other way around but what do you expect from savages that dont have any of those
Brandon Adams
Swëdes are black, G*rmanic subhumans are whitoids. Don't EVER call us Swëdes "G*rmanic" again, we're proud BLACKS
got it witeboi???
Nicholas Campbell
Yeah, no, the reverse assimilation thing is pretty common. Roman elites became hellenized, every group that ever invaded China became Sinicized, most of the people who invaded Egypt eventually adopted the local customs including the Greeks, the Arabs and Turks became thoroughly Persianized with the Islamic conquests, etc. It's quite rare for a conquering elite to maintain their distinction from the local populace.
Josiah Reed
Nice wiki parroting you autist. Majority of modern-day Germany are in fact germanised Celtic tribes and Polabian Slavs.
You act as if Germanics were Germans. A common mistake due to English inbred language. Germans call themselves "Deutsche" and call Germanics "Germanen".
Goths and Vandals had more in common with Swedes and Slavshits than with modern day Gaymans. Deal with it, wikicuck.
Kevin Cook
I was going to post similar things but I realized they both happen at roughly the same rate, and then I didn't feel like bothering arguing. The Spanish colonization of the Americas, Doric invasion, Bantu expansion, Arab/Islamic conquest, etc.
Jacob Davis
>the Arabs and Turks became thoroughly Persianized lol they didnt
they arabized/turkicized persian culture
what you see today in iran isnt the same persian culture of the ancient iranians but arabized persian culture
arabs really imposed on the people they conquered, germanics just imposed minor things
Landon Foster
You do realize that the majority of any given population used to speak something else before that, right? The majority of English aren't Saxons and Angles, they're Celts. Before they were Celts, they were something else. Almost all of the native people of Europe are descended from people that predate the Indo-Europeans on the continent.
The distinction of Germanics from Germans is irrelevant when discussion a period when there were, functionally, only three serious varieties of Germanics. It's only after linguistic fractionation and the application of the formerly encompassing term of "German" for a specific subset within that category does a new group term like Germanic actually matter.
Of course, I am wasting my time here on what I imagine to be some project-house Somali in Malmo.
Zachary Morris
Just don't call Germanics - Germans and everything will be fine.
Joseph Green
Did multiculturalism destroy Rome?
Colton Edwards
>The majority of English aren't Saxons and Angles, they're Celt yh no they are germanic or have high germanic blood
Daniel Allen
Why does every thread has to end up in a fucking debate about genetics?
Jonathan Bell
Where did OP mention Hitler?
Andrew Garcia
Ignore Dominican's post, he's retarded, as a head's up since he replied to you.
Luke Walker
I've yet to meet one tripfag that isn't a retarded faggot
Christopher Cook
No they are brythonic celts.
Matthew Ortiz
and with genetics I mean anons say the first shit that comes out of their asses