Autistic question, but who would win in a war between the Ottoman Empire and the Tokugawa Shogunate...

Autistic question, but who would win in a war between the Ottoman Empire and the Tokugawa Shogunate? Each at their peak and near each other.

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanegashima_(Japanese_matchlock)
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2017/01/random-mythbusting-part-2.html
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/11/matchlock-of-ming-dynasty.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

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Seeing as the Ottomans BTFO of the entirety of Europe at their peak while Tokugawa Japan couldn't even project power into Korea I'd Say Ottomans would Desert Storm the Japanese.

Okay. What if they fought a more swords/arrow based empire like the Seljuk Empire or the Sultanate of Rum?

Japan easily btfo Korea, they when China got involved

they lost*

Ottomans didn't do shit anywhere but the Balkans and even then they never really consolidated anything other than Serbia and bosnia

>Japan easily btfo Korea
And it's not done by Tokugawa Shogunate. Korea was in peace for nearly 100 years before Japanese invasion, most of their soldiers almost forgot how to fight back then, of course they would get BTFO, by anyone actually.

>battle of nicopolis, crusade of varna and second battle of kosovo don't real
>hapsburgs war where every relevant european power working together to take down the ottomans don't real

>invade the most tranquil state in East Asia.

In Joseon's case
>Joseon hasn't fought against any countries since its inception.
>No veterans. Even stationed Northern Army is corrupt, sick to the core with barely any logical support from the Guvurnment.
>admired and favoured commander put down and demoted by petty politicians.
>Old, decrepit weapons
>outdated fotresses.
>attitude towards the Japanese is mocking.

>Confucian nation.

On the other hand
>Toyotomi Vassals have been fighting long as Joseon existed.
>fresh, hardened troops.
>complete support from their respective realm
>very well clad armoured infantry
>thousands of elite retinues.
>reaches the coasts without ever getting a single hit from the naval defenses.

This was a completely lobsided situation. Japan managed to destroy the entire Northern Forces in a couple of battles and paved their way through to the Yalu river basin.

Even the Ming were shocked and disbelief of how their number one tributary was on the run in a couple of months.

But Toyotomi failed to subjugate the provinces in which Korea produced their largest grain, as well as keeping the reserves.

They failed to take hold of area, which was guarded by prominent commanders.

The Japanese thought Korean peasants would give up and subjugate like the Vassals back home.

Irregular armies, Monks and Nobles rose up left and right and bogged down reinforcements, reserves and food transports.

They took advantage of situations, even capturing Yi Soon Shin's island fotress after he was demoted, tortured and replaced by the failure of a commander.

The Japanese army held out in certain sieges, even when against the forces of Ming and Joseon.

In the end, Toyotomi grew old and died before capturing Joseon and even setting a foot in Jurchen lands, maintained in some areas by Nurhaci himself.

Japan had reached the Peninsula with great success, but failed to subjugate the areas which the Koreans were funding their war with.

The Turks had guns.

Unfortunately for this, got to pick the turks

So did the Japs. In fact the during the Jap invasion of Korea, the three powers that were participating used the most guns and artillery ever at that point in time.

This looks rad af

I'm willing to bet that the Ottomans at their height had a lot more cash than the Japanese. So I'd give it to the Turks on balance, but it'd be no walk in the park.

>every relevant european power working together to take down the ottomans

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Ottoman_alliance

But that's only the largest and most powerful Western European nation of the time, probably not important.

Probally would happen same way as The Last Samurai. Guys with firearms and cannons win.

At the height of the Tokugawa (as soon as he killed Hideyori)The Japanese had a better army and commanders but a much poorer navy. Neither side would conquer the other. They had an equivalent manpower.

The Tokugawa did have firearms.

>They had an equivalent manpower

How the fuck on earth? All this against a few islands?

Ottoman.

They're juts not in the same league, sorry to break your weeb bubble.

I have to say the only fair rivals to Ottoman empire in their peak in Asia are 1. Ming/ Qing China(needless to say) 2. The Mughal Empire.

The Ottomans would completely rape the japanese lol not even a contest

How many times did the french help the ottomans during all the crusades leading up to the battle of viena?
It literally took eastern germany northern italy poland and russia to defeat the ottomans.

Nothing would've been lost if you didn't pander to the cancer with that buzzword autistic.

The original claim was that "every relevant European power" fought against the Ottomans during the wars with the Habsburgs. Simply untrue.

Japan had a large percentage of soldiers compared to their population. By the time of the Battle of Sekigahara, Japan had more firearms than any other country in the world.

When Toyotomi Hideyoshi invaded Kyushu to defeat the Shimazu (a single clan) he went with 200,000 people. The Shimazu had 30,000 people. The Sieges of Vienna involved 140,000.

Ottomans probably had more guns than Japs do.

In addition Japs had very few heavy artillery. Japanese musket dominance was balanced by Ming Artillery during the Imjin War. Now think about Japs facing Ottomans who were swimming in it.

The Ming Empire was much stronger than the Ottomans.

>Japan had more firearms than any other country in the world.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanegashima_(Japanese_matchlock)

The line goes "Japan became so enthusiastic about the new weapons that it possibly overtook every European country in absolute numbers produced."

Note that European countries at the time (barring Spain's/Habsburg's sprawling empire i guess) was pretty damn small. And Russia is semi-wild.

The Ottomans had more firearms than the Ming Ackshully.

In addition the Ming learnt musketry from muslim states like the Ottomans. For example: they adopted the kneeling firing position that Ottomans used. Putting bipods on their muskets.

Although that was in the early 1500s. Then they started copying European stuff.

>Japanese musket dominance was balanced by Ming Artillery during the Imjin War.
The Japanese didn't even have a decisive advantage with muskets,the Ming were quite innovative and out produced their Japanese counterparts at a far cheaper cost.
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2017/01/random-mythbusting-part-2.html
greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2014/11/matchlock-of-ming-dynasty.html

What you can argue is that Ming mounted infantry/cavalry contingents lacked combat experience against enemy arquebusiers. Though infantry and war wagon contingents used firearms extensively.

>The Ottomans had more firearms than the Ming
That’s kinda debatable, I’m not saying who was stronger, but although there is no specific statistic numbers about how many firearms the entire Ming military had, after mid 16th century, basically all the imperial guards and northern/southern border armies had equipped firearms, that’s about 300 thousands men. In fact, one of main reasons that Ming border troops was defeated by Manchu in battle of Sarhu was because they rely on their firearms too much.

The problem with questions like these is the "near each other" part, because geography informs a lot about a country, mostly access to trade. So like if you just say the geography is different then they don't have the same resources available

Pretty sure Russians were still fighting with sticks and stones at that point desu

Looks like Stephen Turnbull is wrong again.

You're an idiot. Russia conquered Tartaria precisely thanks to having firearms.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy

Ottomans have better technology, but Ming was much, much larger.

At it's peak, the Ottoman Empire had a population of 30 million, the Ming Dynasty at the same point at around 170 million. The Ottoman advantage in firearms is not nearly enough to overcome the near 6:1 disparity in population, even more so considering that Ming had better agricultural techniques.

I wouldn't use Turnbull as a source for the Imjin war. Then again Swope and Hawley aren't much better.

>that’s about 300 thousands men.
The Mughals were the comparable power not the Ottomans,the Ming northern border garrisons alone had 650,000 men near the start of the Imjin War.

>one of main reasons that Ming border troops was defeated by Manchu in battle of Sarhu was because they rely on their firearms too much.
The Manchus swept aside pike wielding infantry,war wagons,field artillery and cavalry alike.

>Ottomans have better technology
Debatable. The Ottomans excelled in siege artillery and firearms but the Ming weren't too far behind in field artillery and arquebusiers. Both had cavalry that would trounce the Japanese.

As far as defensive armaments go the Ming had brigandine/lamellar/mail/cotton while the Ottomans had plated mail. I wonder how they compare to each other.

Ottomans. Japs have [spoiler]noshields [/spoiler]