Historically, it has been Chinese weakness that has led to chaos in Asia. When China has been strong and stable...

>Historically, it has been Chinese weakness that has led to chaos in Asia. When China has been strong and stable, order has been preserved.

True or False?

Hard mode: explain your view.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China#Qing
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malacca_Sultanate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere
youtu.be/xD1nDGeiSAs
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-French_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina#First_French_interventions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–98)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
cnbc.com/2017/07/23/china-threatens-vietnam-over-south-china-sea-drilling.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

Just like any oversimplified historical meme: depends.

Generally, when China is weak, the regional economy implodes and some weird foreign group starts trying to rape all the Chinese vassals.

What happened 200bc-1900ad is not too relevant to the modern age of nuclear weapons and memes.

that's an overly reductive statement, Chinese weakness leads to chaos in China

Well, China includes a BIG chunk of Asia, basically whole East Asia. So I guess it's like this "Chinese weakness leads to chaos in [East Asia]". It's pretty much true during 19th~20th century and Mongol invasion.

I think its inevitable that this happens. The Chinese worldview is one of cycles not linear progression.

Reading Making of Modern Japan and I literally just finished a section (in the chapter on the political situation in Japan during the Taisho/early Showa period) where he talks about how a lot of change in Japan came from instability in China. The Meiji Restoration, for instance, happening partly in response to the Japanese having seen what happened (and seeing what was happening) in China at the time.

So yes I'd say there's truth to it though obviously not that simple.

Koreans and Japanese in general don't really give a fuck about muh Celestial Empire anymore. They view the Chinese with great suspicion, especially as the Chinese try to eradicate their ethnic and linguisitic minorities by straight moving millions of people into the heartlands of their enemies like Tibet and Xinjiang.

Weak china = more country

and more stability from their vassals

no one wants to be raped by commies

China has always been weak, bloated, and out-of-date.

>Koreans and Japanese in general don't really give a fuck about muh Celestial Empire anymore. They view the Chinese with great suspicion.
That's modern days, not back then. Nevertheless it doesn't matter whether they or you care or not, it will affect them eventually like now, it's called "geopolitics".

>Chinese try to eradicate their ethnic and linguisitic minorities by straight moving millions of people into the heartlands of their enemies like Tibet and Xinjiang.
You sound more like typical brainwashed butthurt Westerner than Korean or Japanese. Chinese have been doing this since for thousands of years, Koreans and Japanese all have Chinese ancestry, but not for eradicating ethnic minority but for stability which I know is the least thing you western cucks want to see in China.

>Weak china = more country
Yes, that's what western cucks always want.

>more stability from their vassals
That's exactly the opposite during 19th ~ mid 20th century.

Historically is true, but of course it's a bit more complicate than that. Just take a look at East Asia history during 19th~20th century: If Qing empire didn't get defeated and weaken by Europeans, Europeans' filthy imperialism colonialism could never dominate entire East and Southeast Asia so deep, SEA countries wouldn't be swallowed by Europeans one by one. Japan wouldn't went full batshit crazy and ignite Pacific War after they're influenced by European nationalism, Social Darwanism and militarism. If China wasn't took over by commies during 1949, the entire East and Southeast Asia wouldn't also be threat by commies so fiercely, Korean war and Vietnam war probably would never happen.

However, when China is strong and stable such as now, the room and opportunity for Westerners (back then is European, now is American) to "interfere" Asians business will be gradually reduced, so naturally many Westerners, mainly Americans and their lackeys, don't want it to be true.

>What happened 200bc-1900ad is not too relevant to the modern age
Damn... so this is the power of Veeky Forums...

Weak china means better for the rest of the world.

It means other countries get to have their on economic boom
Commies are Cancer

You don't know anything about economics

Wtf China doesn't own anything is South east Asia

One of the biggest reasons European went to sea is because to establish at trade route with china and india

Japan went crazy because they run out or resources and needed the trades routes to SEA to further btfo china

Chinks actually consider Communism as being the "strong china" that's free from "imperialist'
They wanted it and fought a civil war over it and won.

Korea and Japan has never been tho conquered and was able to get themselves out of Chinese vassal cuck control.

They look like they are about to return towards it though

t. chinese-american shill
china should be toned the fuck down so they don't go around opressing whole countries, like they're doing in the south sea

>Wtf China doesn't own anything is South east Asia
1) What is Southern China?
2) Because trade comes to them and out of them.
3) Because Chinese merchant families themselves go to Southeast Asia and set up their relatives in Southeast Asian states/"empty" regions in SEA to serve as middlemen in Southeast Asian trading scene.
4) Related to #3, some of these private trading posts were powerful enough to become state entities. The Kongsi Republics in Borneo for example.
5) Some bans issued by certain Ming and Qing emperors about sea travel. Not to combat trade though, but to counter pirates.

People tend to do colonialism out of necessity. Imperial China didn't see a need to do so considering the circumstances.

That was the same time Europeans was creeping in south east Asia.

China wanted to secure their trade routes.


Its not China's fault those countries we conquered by the west
They have their own balaknized kingdoms and territories that routinely conqured each other it was the west that put most of them together

It was actually the dutch that help spread Islam to Indonesia

>Wtf China doesn't own anything is South east Asia
I find people here really have lot of opinions on something they barely understand.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_Imperial_China#Qing
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malacca_Sultanate

>Japan went crazy because they run out or resources and needed the trades routes to SEA to further btfo china
There is something called "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere", one of main goals of it was to expel all "European colonial powers" in Asia, which would never be needed if old Chinese empire, the overlord of East Asia, could stop their nibbling invasion in the first place during 19th century.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_East_Asia_Co-Prosperity_Sphere

Same goes to India as well, if their Maratha Empire could unite the whole India and stop British in the first place. Europeans could never find footholds to dominate the whole Asia.

That really doesn't explain why it was weak chinas fault they got conquered

It seems like they are their own kingdoms that were weak on their own.

Part of it was economics Japan was losing its resources they nned the oil of Indonesia and trade ports of Singapore.

China if it had advanced technologically would have put an end to any invasion

Similarly in the modern world, if the USA left Asia you can be sure China would stake it's own hegemony in the region, if the Brits for example came around Asia looking to colonise, say thailand China would sending warships on day one

I wouldn't say they were "overlords" Even when a state, kingdom, empire was tributary, foreign diplomacy and military command was up to the client. Sometimes tributaries would invade China itself as well. That doesn't sound like an overlord, more like a powerful influence.

That's if china actually wanted to.
It seems like as long as they keep their trade ports and the west keeps tk themselves there they don't really care what happened to some of those territories.

Well to be fair they can't even stop the inland foreign invasion that raped and broke their dynasty several times.

That was due to a lack of technological advancement, they have the geopolitical positioning of almost poland

youtu.be/xD1nDGeiSAs

Look from 13:00 onwards, the keeping to themselves thing is not necessarily true anymore: they seek to expand , it's abit like star controls ur-quan , they will not sit easy until every corner of this earth has been tamed from ever being a threat to them again

>That really doesn't explain why it was weak chinas fault they got conquered
It kinda did, and as Chinese I feel a bit sorry for them, but now WE are getting stronger, our Asians brothers and sisters will no longer need to be afraid of Western Imperialists, never again.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-French_War
>The Sino-French War (traditional Chinese: 中法戰爭; simplified Chinese: 中法戰争; pinyin: Zhōngfǎ Zhànzhēng, French: Guerre franco-chinoise, Khmer: សង្គ្រាមបារាំង-ចិន, Vietnamese: Chiến tranh Pháp-Thanh), also known as the Tonkin War and Tonquin War,[5] was a limited conflict fought from August 1884 through April 1885, to decide whether France would supplant China's control of Tonkin (northern Vietnam). Although the Chinese armies performed better than in other nineteenth-century wars and the war ended with French defeat on land,[1] the French achieved most of their aims in the Treaty of Tientsin.[6]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Indochina#First_French_interventions
>France obtained control over northern Vietnam following its victory over China in the Sino-French War (1884–85). French Indochina was formed on 17 October 1887 from Annam, Tonkin, Cochinchina (which together form modern Vietnam) and the Kingdom of Cambodia; Laos was added after the Franco-Siamese War in 1893.

We are more afraid of chinese commie influence and invasion 2bh
We don't want to end up like tibet

So strong china is actually a threat and bad to the world.

Not really, their assertion is one of economic weight: they will not military assert themselves unless there is an unreasonable threat to their business interests, they are not inherently too concerned about idealogy or culture unless it is irredeemable

At that time the have the most advance technology compared to the rest

Yet they didn't really do much but set up trade ports

That's actually even worse
We don't want to be in debt to China and be reliant on them

What if china is the threat to our buiness interest?

In Asia, but not in Europe

I don't really mean in debt either, just prepare to see stuff like lenovo owning thinkpads alot more soon

Business interest to the small guys maybe, but alot of larger corps in America seen to enjoy China buying or collaborating with them, is apple not evidence of this?

Compared to europe and their small fleets and weak guns

China can take them

>I wouldn't say they were "overlords"
Doesn't matter, it's historical fact a lot of times. Chinese empires have obligation to help their tributary states if they request, the most iconic examples was when Vietnam faced French invasion and Korean faced Japanese invasion.

But still that's a threat for the rest of us and not america per say
Everything will eventually go balc to paying debts.

Maybe in the Tang, but that is way too long ago

They should have taken those European removals of mysticism from science since the yuan dynasty

By how things turned out it looks like they didnt

You don't have to. Tibet is Chinese territory since Qing dynasty(including Yuan if you like), and tributary entity of Ming dynasty. But (you) are not, we or I don't want your soils.

Population wise they can easily push them out

It will always be a threat so as long as you keep this mentality of allowing or encouraging unlimited narcissism

Alot of richer Chinese elites themselves have alot taken flight in order to escape with their riches, yet many more seek to develop their homelands and create a legacy to carry on their work, you can go read up how China got work done with their missile program to get an idea what you guys seem to be missing increasingly from your own populace

Speak like a true butthurt American, even if you're actually not.

Population alone isn't enough

China missed a their golden moment then and it cost them dearly, and they will probably take it as hard as the first few philosophers taught them

That's not whats happening especially in the spartlys

>this mentality of allowing or encouraging unlimited narcissism

Looking at the replies here the only narcissistic here are the Chinese that thinks they own everything

If you think about it then can even use the population of the tributaries
But it seems like they don't really even want to fight for them

Well you have to go gain their trust again, that there won't be an invasion force on their doorstep assembling at that body of water

They were at most trade partners, I don't think they expected the tributaries to fight for them unless it was on the tributaries soil, aka Japanese invasion of korea

So only china can develop and not the other countries.

What if china is the reason why their development is hindered

Well China develops aswell, in Asia there are obstacles to this due to disputes, but in Africa and the middle East there appears to be some progress, and a handful of European countries

>Well you have to go gain their trust again,
What if that means being invaded Tibet
And we don't want to
Why can't china be the one who adjust and stop being a greedy asshole?

So why can't china just stop hindering their development?

>it looks like they didn't
Yes, we did. Sometime we success, sometimes we failed. We failed in 19th century, hence the outcomes till today.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592–98)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sino-Japanese_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-French_War

So it seem like china didn't really own the tributaries in the south east asia

In India and the rest of south east Asia?

Well being a greedy asshole is the natural state of man, you can go read about legalism and the CCP: in their minds the defensive ideal of older China is no longer relevant, instead in order to survive it believes it must pursue the more ruthless style of earlier dynasties like the Han and Qin

Honestly as a Singaporean I've come to accept it, there is not much our selfish nations in Asia can do anything about their unified goal, and the USA seems to be waning in strength

But to your worry about territorial invasion into land I doubt it, they would rather people take care of themselves in their own countries

>Why can't china be the one who adjust and stop being a greedy asshole?
Because you just keep assuming we want your lands, but I can guarantee most of us, at leats most common people, really don't want your lands in Southeast Asia.

SCS and Sino-India border issues are totally different matters.

Because they put themselves first, similar to how the USA always butts into Latin American politics

They might have owned Vietnam at some point, but I do not foresee them invading Vietnam just for that puny amount of land. Plus they control most of the starting points of all tributaries anyway

That's the problem China is hindering other countries that want to take care of themsleves and doesn't want to be reliant on china

Even if we don't assume and worked with you you still try to take them
But china buts in on our politics to threatening us with war if we fish in our own waters

That is not just China, that is any large country surrounded by smaller nations

Germany, Russia , America , Iran, Saudi Arabia and even nations like France or Britain have played or play this game as we speak, unless you can convince them to stop and make it clear that China is the exceptional one doing this, they will probably keep doing it

Well tough luck
China is a legalist wearing Confucius's mask

Depends on which country
So fat here its only china


cnbc.com/2017/07/23/china-threatens-vietnam-over-south-china-sea-drilling.html

So a strong china is a threat to the world

Well China is the only big guy here in Asia

Similarily in Europe many Eu nations dislike Germany to a degree, and many ex USSR states dislike russia

Less than eurangutans' though. In other words they are saviours of the world.

Well, the I'd say the threat level varies depending on where you live

But being absorbed into their sphere of influence will be inevitable for nations surrounding them

>Big guy
For you

If China is bane who are the other super villains?

In others words yeah they are a threat

And is doing what they accuse of the west is doing.

Lmao

Less than eurangutans' though. They will save us from the tyranny of eurangutan savagery.

I suppose you can call them, the messiah.

Burger = two face
EU = penguin
Russia = joker

Well, that's the way of the world, they played the isolated guy long enough

Dr. Pavel, I'm Emperor Taizong

Yeah china is for sure more savage and unreasonable