>“…You know, boss, dese days dere is three kind of people. Lowest down is a layer of white folks, then in de middle is a layer of colored folks, and on top is de cream, a layer of good white folks…” “…The slaves saw enough abject poverty, disease, and demoralization among the poor whites… to see their own condition under Ole Massa’s protection as perhaps not the worst of evils.” (Eugene D. Genovese, “‘Rather Be a Nigger Than a Poor White Man’: Slave Perceptions of Southern Yeoman and Poor Whites,” in Toward a New View of America)
>“‘When I was a boy,’ recalled Waters Mcintosh, who had been a slave in Sumter, South Carolina, ‘we used to sing, ‘Rather be a nigger than a poor white man.’ Even in slavery we used to sing that.’”
>“Gangs of Irish immigrants worked ditching and draining plantations, building levees and sometimes clearing land because of the danger to valuable (negro) slave property …George Templeton Strong, a Whig patrician diarist… considered Irish workmen at his home to have had ‘prehensile paws’ rather than hands. He denounced the ‘Celtic beast’… lrish youths… were sometimes called ‘Irish slaves’ and more frequently ‘bound boys’…” A common joke in the South in the pre-Civil War period was that when Blacks were ordered to work hard they complained that their masters were treating them ‘like Irishmen.’” “…a slave… expressed no surprise that his master, who was Big Buckra, never associated with white trash. And Rosa Starke, who had been owned by a big planter in South Carolina, reported that poor whites had to use the kitchen door when they went up to the Big House. Her mistress ‘had a grand manner; no patience with poor white folks.’”
>“Frederic Law Olmsted, the landscape architect who designed New York’s Central Park, observed bales of cotton being thrown from a considerable height into a cargo ship’s hold. The men tossing the bales somewhat recklessly into the hold were negroes, the men in the hold were Irish. Olmsted inquired about this to a mate on the ship. ‘Oh, said the mate, ‘the niggers are worth too much to be risked here; if the Paddies are knocked overboard or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything.’”
Camden Morris
Oh fuck off /pol/
Jaxon Morris
>“John Randolph of Roanoke, traveling in England and Ireland with his black manservant Johnny, wrote to a friend back home: ‘Much as I was prepared to see misery in the south of Ireland, I was utterly shocked at the condition of the poor peasantry between Limerick and Dublin. Why sir, John never felt so proud of being a Virginia slave. He looked with horror upon the mud hovels and miserable food of the white slaves, and I had no fear of his running away.”
Brandon Watson
>slavery is the reason black society is broken nowadays Biggest lie of the century.
John Sanders
what about the decades of formal institutionalized discrimination ala jim crow and informal social attitudes that barred many blacks from housing, employment, & political activism?
Connor Jackson
I wonder why half a million slaves ran away during the Civil War, and 200k blacks, mostly former slaves, joined the Union army.
William Baker
>white people captured blacks in west africa >therefore blacks were stolen from their homeland >new world 'blacks' aren't descended from white slave owners but whites are
Logan Flores
the grass is always greener
Landon Anderson
Even if they had it good, was it worth giving up freedom for?
Josiah Diaz
Probably not. I think though that more interesting is how the facts about slavery are misrepresented in school. Pic related.
Elijah Sullivan
that must have been great comfort on the auction block
Evan Cruz
Seems to me like it's one of those situations where less shitty = good. Many black slaves hated their status as slaves, but given the option of being on the level as some of these poor white workers they'd keep their current slave status.
Kind of bleak when slavery seems a better option.
Jacob Moore
Wow, slavery is pretty sweet! You should go find yourself a slave position somewhere and take advantage.
Dylan Jones
Why are latinos so racist?
Parker Flores
>capitalism isn't slavery
Andrew Moore
>all that false equivalency
Justin Campbell
>I have to sit in the office looking at cat pictures for 40 hours a week to pay mortgage for my house >I'm basically having it as bad as the slaves Right.
David Ross
rather be a nigger than a poor white man or slav
Leo Hernandez
even if we take this as the case for slavery in the US you can easily go take a look in the documents on slavery in the caribbean or brazil to see just how terrible it really was
Henry Carter
Lol, they were still better off as a slave in the Confederacy than living in a mud hut in Africa and dying of malaria
David Martin
>i have the freedom to make 25k/yr as a black woman working at a Publix; or, >i have the freedom to starve
Luis Harris
American exceptionalism ftw
Charles Phillips
I dont know about all of that, but I have recently noticed the whole college SJW types trying to compare slavery to the holocaust
Kayden Barnes
because being a slave sucks dick. That still doesnt mean slavery in america was the holocaust
Easton Baker
i guess when you start breeding slaves instead of just importing them you treat them more like livestock than like trash
Michael Young
i think you treat them more like capital equipment than livestock, but yeah
Owen Mitchell
>another "everyone is a slave to something" pseud you don't get beat for trying to quit your job nowadays, and your employer doesn't sell your children
Zachary Gomez
Some factors, namely the breakdown of the black nuclear family unit, happened after the Jim Crow era.
Charles Diaz
>the breakdown of the black nuclear family unit The irony.
Easton James
So we have >massa invests capital in his slaves so they can be more effective workers >relatively unimportant >much lower than whites and probably concentrated in house slaves >also a capital investment in slaves >something that truly is unfortunate >and slaves trying to justify their lot in life to themselves
Christian Russell
>breakdown of the black nuclear family unit . Are you just throwing in buzzwords to try to sound authoritative?
Jace Murphy
at any time, you can choose to quit working at publix and try to find another job or go to school ect. You dont have to reenact The Great Escape and then run on foot through 3 states into another place you've never been with nothing but the close on your back and a old fashion stick&handkerchief luggage
Nolan James
no one is denying that slaves were denied freedom. hence, "slavery"
Aaron Lewis
ITT: Muh ancestors LOVED the negro! see?
>bulk them up with food to make them better beasts of burden >the war was over economic issues I swear... but it's totally okay when we take what we want from negros >A few house negros learned how to read and write, that means that no field negro was ever whipped for teaching themselves And guess what they wrote constantly about? rmc.library.cornell.edu/abolitionism/narratives/Separation.htm >sitting for fewer hours grueling over a cotton gin rather than owning your own property and tilling your own soil this only makes me want to enslave OP >it's harder to run away from home when you're chained to it
cherry picking at its very finest.
Adam Jenkins
something tells me that a project called "Abolition in America" wouldn't publish epistles from slaves talking about the benefits of slavery
Adam Jackson
and something tells me that you're ignoring scale and probably don't even have 1/10th of the resources that I do of slaves writing about the horrors of their condition
Julian Kelly
Being a slave was certainly a sad life, but brutalities such as depicted in the movies were probably rare. It's as stupid as beating a beast of burden. Besides, wasn't there some "code noir" to regulate all this shit?
Lincoln Clark
>It's as stupid as beating a beast of burden. Beasts of burden don't have to be kept in a near continuous state of terror in order to function. The output of slaves plummets the moment they are no longer afraid of punishment
This isn't just about southern chattel slavery, it's well documented in all slave societies. That's the reason why the Spartans terrorized helots, and the reason why Nazi's use of coerced labor came back to bite them in the ass due to the shoddiness (and sometimes outright sabotage) of the slave-produced goods.
>Besides, wasn't there some "code noir" to regulate all this shit? It would have been totally unenforceable and varied wildly. If a plantation owner felt like being an unmitigated prick to his slaves, there wasn't a whole lot anyone could do to stop him
John Jenkins
An American slave lived a better life than they did in Africa.
So it was honestly an upgrade. Black people should feel free to return to their ancestral homelands. Nobody is stopping you.
Anthony Price
>le pol boogeyman Fuck off to tumblr
Benjamin Campbell
Yet they didn't return to Africa...
Isaiah Lee
Because they had been born and raised in america you absolute retard
Eli Roberts
Would you rather be a well fed slave or a free man who has to bust his ass to survive?
Asher Taylor
>be shipped off to the states as a slave >have higher standard of living than you ever would have had in africa
ungrateful nigs
Jose Allen
who knows
Austin White
White ugly Veeky Forums kids are well off yet they are depressed miserable creatures. Not everyone in Africa was dying out of hunger. Those people wouldn't have been in working condition anyway. Most had a happier life in Africa, that's guaranteed.
Thomas Mitchell
I agree with everything except this
>In the 1870 census, 20.1% of blacks could read and write, compared to 80% of US whites. That same year Russia had a literacy rate of around 15%. Most African countries didn’t achieve a literacy rate of 20% until around 1950, and India had a literacy rate of 20% in 1950.
Why should that matter?
>Hey doc you're okay with earning minimum wage right, that's still twice what a doctor in Africa earns
Joseph Perry
So, you are ok if I will sell your daughter into sexual slavery, because in Serbia your daughter would be killed or sold for organs?
>Westerner logic
Aiden Torres
The Black Nuclear family was already broken down.
James Edwards
>Based on the fact that ~41% of all blacks in West and Central Africa prior to European conquest were slaves, the extreme increase in price of slaves from the relatively small increase in demand that the Atlantic Slave Trade represented, and the anecdotal evidence that more slaves were put to work within Africa following Britain’s global ban on slavery, we can say that the Europeans likely did not cause a single black person to be a slave who wasn’t already going to be one.
Cooper Collins
Got any hard data?
Nathaniel Ortiz
>When ever I hear anyone arguing for a mass invasion followed by draft I feel a strong impulse to see it tried of him personally
I wonder how Abe would have faired at Cold Harbor?
Michael Clark
Not really, in most cases they were trading a life of slavery under some other nigger to a life of slavery under whitey. The traders didn't go around with big nets catching free men, they just gave guns and tools to some black chieftan for the slaves that he was willing to sell.
Grayson Rogers
Well he did serve in the military when he ws younger. I think he even took part in some war shooting indians and taking their land.
Kevin Edwards
>mass invasion nice try, Dixiekraut. I see what you did there.
>"HURR THE DRAFT = SLAVERY" The draft is the responsibility of all free citizens of a Republic.
Slavery is a race-based welfare state. Yankees came down there to stop criminals from perpetuating their life of indolence and leisure on the backs of systematically stolen labor. Just because they hijacked state governments and bamboozled your poor, ignorant grandpappy into throwing his life away for their bottom line doesn't make it an "invasion"
Grayson Murphy
but the rate of return on capital of slaves was only 10-15%. as if plantation owners wouldn't have just hired whites and moved more quickly towards industrialization had slavery not been legal.
Noah Morris
>Signing up to larp in the woods and chance redskins by choice >Being rounded up by the authorities against your will to do manual labor and thrown into bloodbath of a war for someone else's political power
Hmmmmmmm.. the second one sounds a lot like a certain form of labor, but I just can't think of the name.
Elijah Edwards
>as if plantation owners wouldn't have just hired whites and moved more quickly towards industrialization had slavery not been legal. Because it wasn't about economic issues, it was about a culture built around the concept of a "natural hierarchy", where no matter how poor and down on your luck a southern man got, he could grab his gun and join an anti-slave posse, hunting down runaways and terrorizing field hands into keeping their quotas up, and would never have to worry about being made to do the mindless bitch-work, himself.
Even the poorest poorfags felt this way. It was a culture of buying and owning and feeling superior to other humans which they sought to defend.
Anthony Powell
>Lincoln didn't demand a mass land invasion that failed terribly instead of the encirclement plan devised by Scott.
LOL the gymnastics. Also dixiekraut is a new one, have anymore shitty meme names
Kayden Anderson
when the mean IQ of the population being imported is only 60 i'm sure it becomes a lot easier to see the other as subhuman
Nicholas Roberts
>LOL the gymnastics Said the dindu
>Also dixiekraut is a new one, Because if you're not defending the "freedom" of southerners to buy and trade negros like property, you're defending uncle adolf or marching with tiki torches. Different generations, all fighting and dying for the same thing: an intense hatred for the freedoms of anybody but themselves.
Caleb Taylor
>blacks >even knowing who their own chillun are
Josiah Morris
>arguing with a strawman What did any of that have to do with my posts?
Mason Lee
What the fuck are you talking about wh*te boi?
Caleb Martinez
>What did any of that have to do with my posts? Attacking your pathologically false equivalence.
Officers in a military are sometimes forced to send grunts to their deaths. That's the brutal reality of warfare. That's something wholly different than shackling someone in a barn and systematically depriving them of their liberty and labor
Caleb Lopez
Concept of slavery itself isnt that bad, it was common in the entire world. But to enslave speicfically a certain race just because of their skin colour? Thats just disgusting
Jack Nelson
>just because of their skin colour
Samuel Sullivan
Shaka Zulu was truly a visionary of our time, above most whites during his time period, too bad the British racists took away his progressive and prosperous African empire.
Nathan Barnes
Irrelevant. You invaded Africa, you will get invaded too. Get over it, neandethal.
Connor Evans
>race is just skin colour why do people do this?
Christopher Cox
There were white slaves too. and I believe they attempted to enslave American Indians but they would refuse to work (wonder why the gang system failed to generate any results?)
Joshua Ramirez
t. angry westerner t. another angry westerner
Oliver Evans
Those were probably mixed whites, also the /pol/ in this thread is disgusting and you should all go back to /pol/, sadly this isn't like the EH comment section.
The melanin inside the black men's body makes him smarter and stronger than most wh*tes, whites stole technology from us because they were all dumb uninventive neanderthals.
They weren't enslaved because of their skin color, they were used because the west African kingdoms sold cheap slaves.
Logan Carter
Nothing in your previous post even mentioned my argument, but you'll never admit to that so whatever. I'm not blaming any officer, I'm blaming the politicians. Why would Billy Bumfuck in some northern city care if the south seceded? I'm sure his life was far more important to him than "protecting the union". There was a massive democratic contingent in the north that wanted immediate peace yet their sons, brothers, and husbands were thrown into a massive war machine against their will. You might say the Republican politicians didn't have a choice because they were given a worse alternative. What worse alternative? Losing the southern states and the economic/political implications of it? That was worth to lives of hundreds of thousands of northern boys? Maybe to Lincoln and co. After all the Confederates we're no different, they inherited a system of slavery where the alternative was to lose almost all wealth, political power, and a massive societal restructuring. They saw what benefitted them and pursued it. Stop with the faggy virtue signalling.
Henry Lee
huh i wonder why poor white farmers would fight for the interests of their rich southern aristocrats countrymen
hmmmmm really activatinggggggggg hmmmm is like hmmmm activating my almonds, like ay ay ay people do things like hnggggggg not only for economic gains or interest but OH MY GOD NHGNNGNMMMMMMMMMMM for ideals impossed by others who had the means to do so.
Andrew Butler
>I'm not blaming any officer, I'm blaming the politicians. It's the same difference: civilian politicians tell military officers what to do, and they pass their orders down to the grunts.
>Why would Billy Bumfuck in some northern city care if the south seceded? Because his country would be weaker in the long run. Why would Bubba Sisterfucker be willing to fight and die if slavery was "no big deal" as confederate white-washers try to portray it as? You really think they wanted to secede over a trade arrangement?
> I'm sure his life was far more important to him than "protecting the union". A traitor 'would' put his own life above the well being of his country. I hardly expect one to appreciate the concept of patriotism
> There was a massive democratic contingent in the north that wanted immediate peace Yet they lost both the election of '60 and '64. Seceding just because you don't like the results of an election negates the purpose of having a democracy in the first place.
>thrown into a massive war machine against their will being drafted to fight in a war is the price to pay for living in a free society. There's nothing stopping them from leaving if they can't morally support paying their dues for the club that supports them.
>Losing the southern states and the economic/political implications of it? That was worth to lives of hundreds of thousands of northern boys? Yes it was, because they would have spread slavery to the midwest and created a plurality on the North American continent. You're just dinduing if you think that the South didn't have designs on expansion, that's why they seceded even though Lincoln told them that they can keep their slaves but can't create new slave states.
> Stop with the faggy virtue signalling. Stop telling me that self and family are more important than God and country.
Ethan Bell
>Seceding just because you don't like the results of an election negates the purpose of having a democracy in the first place prove it. (protip: you can't)
Oliver Powell
>prove it. Ballots are a superior means of solving our differences than bullets.
In a democracy you and I discuss the issues peacefully, as we are doing now, and then we allow that to influence our behavior in the voting booth when it's time to elect representatives to serve our interests. The loser accepts the result of the election knowing that he'll get another chance in the near future to alter his political condition.
The alternative is us firing bullets at each other in a might-makes-right contest to see whose will gets to be imposed on the other. No learning takes place, victory does not necessarily go to the one which the consensus of the population deems the moral choice, we just go right on making the same mistakes and condemning future generations to deal with the consequences.
Jaxon Bailey
>Why would Bubba Sisterfucker be willing to fight and die if slavery was "no big deal" as confederate white-washers try to portray it as? You really think they wanted to secede over a trade arrangement? Again with the strawmanning. When did I say any of this?
>A traitor 'would' put his own life above the well being of his country. I hardly expect one to appreciate the concept of patriotism Some southern states had existed for hundreds of years before the union and they were obviously had a loyalty to their home states and communities over a federal government.
>Yet they lost both the election of '60 and '64. Seceding just because you don't like the results of an election negates the purpose of having a democracy in the first place. That doesn't discount my point that there was a sizable amount of northerners being dragged into a war they didn't want. Also the US wasn't a democracy, it was a union of states.
>There's nothing stopping them from leaving if they can't morally support paying their dues for the club that supports them. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ok I'm done responding, I cant take this level of delusion. THE SOUTH ATTEMPTED TO LEAVE YOU FUCKING IDIOT THATS WHAT THE ENTIRE WAR WAS ABOUT.
Ryan Foster
Except, when the Union was formed, it was done so under the guise that states could choose to leave it ultimately if they so wished.
Jace Johnson
Look, I get that some of Veeky Forums don't like /pol/, but don't you at least acknowledge that the American conception of slavery has basically turned into a simulacrum that unfairly demonizes whites for things that are either massively exaggerated (cruelty to chattel slaves) or outright made up (slaves were summarily executed if they were found with books)?
Seems reasonable to critically examine a lot of these assumptions.
Ethan Diaz
The south removed the federal military outpost by arms, up until that point whether they'd be allowed to just leave was in the air.
Jonathan Flores
>Again with the strawmanning. When did I say any of this? Because you're deliberately being passive aggressive and squirrelly by trying to phrase the discussion as "we wuz good boys who just wanted to be left alone" instead of actually exploring the reasons why they seceded
>Some southern states had existed for hundreds of years before the union and they were obviously had a loyalty to their home states and communities over a federal government. And they died a traitor's death when they put a patch of mud and their moocher cousins over the ideals and principles of their nation >That doesn't discount my point that there was a sizable amount of northerners being dragged into a war they didn't want. Nobody "wants" war. There are no "good" wars, only necessary ones >HE SOUTH ATTEMPTED TO LEAVE YOU FUCKING IDIOT THATS WHAT THE ENTIRE WAR WAS ABOUT. No, criminals attempted to hijack the machinery of government and steal the land right along with them you bellyaching moron
Samuel Cruz
That's precisely the reason why the Articles of Confederation failed: it made the government too weak. A democracy can't function while under the threat of secession.
Xavier Cox
fwiw i'm inclined to agree with you re: the USA. but i'd also like to see freedom for catalonia.
Luis Cook
>And they died a traitor's death when they put a patch of mud and their moocher cousins over the ideals and principles of their nation
Not the chap you're replying to but let's not pretend for a minute that you care about the concept of punishing traitors with death. Let alone the concept of the Nation above all else. You're a libfag, you believe in liberalism, and liberalism is necessarily an internationalist/universalist idea. Hence the obsession with spreading your poz from Saudi to China.
Nolan Hernandez
>up until that point whether they'd be allowed to just leave was in the air. Yeah besides for the fact of Lincoln saying secession was illegal and they weren't allowed to do it. Come on you really think the union would have let then leave willy nilly?
Julian Williams
>Not the chap you're replying to but let's not pretend for a minute that you care about the concept of punishing traitors with death. Let alone the concept of the Nation above all else. You're a libfag, you believe in liberalism, and liberalism is necessarily an internationalist/universalist idea. Hence the obsession with spreading your poz from Saudi to China. Conservative Catholic, actually. Stop trying to pretend like the Democrats weren't and haven't always been the party of plantations and welfare queens
Jaxon Campbell
>Conservative Catholic
lol, meaningless in an age of an antipope.
Cameron Parker
Lincoln was not the supreme court.
Michael Stewart
as meaningless as your utterly pathetic assertion that anyone who is pro-union is automatically a screaming liberal
Lucas Richardson
>Because you're deliberately being passive aggressive and squirrelly by trying to phrase the discussion as "we wuz good boys who just wanted to be left alone" instead of actually exploring the reasons why they seceded Then why even continue a dialogue with me if you just know how I truly think. Why not post some blog elsewhere so you can rant nonstop to your heart's content? If you hadn't been able to tell from my posts, I'm deeply cynical about MUH RIGHTIOUS CAUSE grand narratives. If you want to rip apart states rights fags then fine, but to turn around a gobble Lincoln's and the union's cock then you can fuck off.
>Muh traitor So I'm assuming you would have been a loyalist considering all your talk of God and country? Why not be a good anglo and bow to your King. Hmm... It's almost as if identity and loyalty is a complex topic.
>steal the land right along with them Kings rightful land you mean? After all the crown financed it's conquering.
Jacob Russell
>Then why even continue a dialogue with me if you just know how I truly think. Because you're trampling on MY heritage, hoss. I don't like it when overpaid athletes disrespect veterans by kneeling during the anthem, why should I like it when Billy-Bob from Arkansas disrespects them by painting them as malicious invaders and the South as pristine, blameless angels just defending their property while deliberately ignoring any and all context as to why they felt so compelled to fight in the first place?
>So I'm assuming you would have been a loyalist considering all your talk of God and country? Nonsense. The Revolution was the act of turning the relationship between people and government on its head. The colonies were being taxed with zero representation in the government which was doing so. Having representation in an election and losing is very, very different from a distant government imposing burdens on you while categorically refusing to give you a say in how and why those burdens are levied.
>Kings rightful land you mean? After all the crown financed it's conquering. The King surrendered any claims to the land when he refused to give Americans representation and left them with no recourse but the violent one.
Michael Parker
neat!
Robert Kelly
>false equivalence that's funny
Gabriel Jenkins
>his country He cared more about his state.
Camden Hernandez
>the American conception of slavery has basically turned into a simulacrum not only that, many blacks are willing to put an actual dollar amount on their ancestors freedom in the form of reparations.
which is basically just selling them again, ironically. It's hilarious how they don't either see or care about that.
