Genuinely, what are the stone-cold facts re. the holocaust? Irving's lectures have messed with my mind

Dresden never happened Hans

No no no, he didn't get BTFO, he presented himself honestly and well, and the judge agreed with him! (even though the judge's transcripts are on record and I can never seem to find this agreement) BUT THEN THA JOOOZ CAME IN AND PERVERTED THE TRIAL WE WUZ INNOCENT AND SHIET!

>much allies bombed supply lines

Yet curiously missed the lines that brought supplies to camps housing solely military prisoners. They also manged to miss the lines bringing supplies to concentration camps that also housed military prisoner, despite being able to prevent supplies being carried the few hundred yards from the military sections to civilian section's, where disease and starvation was rampant.

How odd.

Nope, Himmler is on audio record talking about "the extermination of the Jewish race" and how it was important to punish soldiers who stole "furs, marks or watches" from the dead Jews.

We also have memos talking about the gassing chambers, evidence of the corpses and mass graves, memos detailing the number of Jews killed each month by the einsatzgruppen, letters from German soldiers admitting the deed, the gassing chambers have traces of cyanide everywhere, hundreds of thousands of clothing items foundnat Auschwitz, and even Gobbels' diaries admitting the deed.

Only a brainwashed retard could deny the Holocaust happened. At it was 11 million civilians, not just Jews.

Neck yourself.

Kek, I remember reading about how he spilt a metric ton of spaghetti during the trial, even calling the judge 'mein Fuehrer' at one point. He's an object lesson to /pol/ about the consequences of showing their power level.

Another priceless excerpt from Paxman's Newsnight interview of Irving:

> Paxman: ... "We heard in that tape a speech that you were making in Tampa, Florida, in which you said, 'the Jews never asked themselves why they've been disliked for 3000 years.'"
Irving: "It's a very serious question, and..."
Paxman: "Would you like to answer it for us?"
Irving: "They don't like- they don't like- well, you're not Jewish, are you?"

11 million now?

>Himmler is on audio record talking about "the extermination of the Jewish race"
That audio was fabricated.

>We also have memos talking about the gassing chambers, evidence of the corpses and mass graves, memos detailing the number of Jews killed each month by the einsatzgruppen, letters from German soldiers admitting the deed
All of those have been proven false.

>the gassing chambers have traces of cyanide everywhere
The Leuchter report decisively disproved that.

>hundreds of thousands of clothing items foundnat Auschwitz
So a place that houses hundreds of thousands of people containing clothes is evidence of mass murder? You're delusional.

>At it was 11 million civilians, not just Jews.
Literally Jewish propaganda invented in the 70s, even the Jews admit it.
jta.org/2017/01/31/news-opinion/united-states/remember-the-11-million-why-an-inflated-victims-tally-irks-holocaust-historians

>Everything I don't like is fabricated
Typical.

Is this not Himmler's voice?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Himmler_Posen_Speech_-_Extermination_of_the_Jews_excerpt,_Oct_4,_1943.ogg

>The Leuchter report decisively disproved that.
No it didn't.
nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/forensic.html

Neck yourself.

>you're wrong about my biased information!
>here's a biased source that proves my bias right!

The clockwork of denialism never lets you down.

The Germans purposely killed several million civilians, mostly in the East. Many, hundreds of thousands if not millions, were killed by firing squads. Most them died as the result of starvation, and these starvation conditions were deliberately created by the occupying forces. The Soviets were guilty of exactly the same thing, and on a larger scale, and this was known and covered up by Western governments for a combination of pragmatic and ideological reasons. Jews were specifically targeted by the Germans but not the Russians.

Elsewhere in territories they occupied, the Germans interned populations they considered either hostile or undesirable where practicable. The German government would have preferred to simply exile these groups, but there was nowhere for them to go. Once it became clear there was no near-term prospect of settling the interned populations outside of the Reich, the concentration camps were converted to labor camps. Conditions here were initially not that bad (although life expectancy would have been lower than in normal civilian life, especially for the old) but deteriorated as war conditions worsened, and cratered towards the end of the war as Germany could barely even keep its own troops fed.

The German government probably singled out the Jews for especial mistreatment. Most, however, starved to death, with those intentionally killed shot by firing squads. Some Jews were probably killed by poison gas, but it wasn't particularly common, and may have been done as part of highly unethical experiments rather than as simple mass execution.

>Is this not Himmler's voice?
No.

>nizkor.org
>"The site ahead contains malware"

Fuck off Jew

SIX MILLION was basically made up; the actual number of Jews killed was substantially lower, probably 3 million at most. The primacy of Jewish victims of German brutality in postwar propaganda is a combination of Jewish media influence in the West, Soviet propaganda (specifically killing Jews is basically the one bad thing the Germans did that the Soviets didn't do on a larger scale), and Zionist propaganda. The Zionists found the Holocaust narrative highly convenient in promoting the legitimacy of their state early on.

The Third Reich was undoubtedly hostile to Jews, didn't want a single Jew living on their territory, and deliberately killed a lot of them. However, the Holocaust Narrative has literally taken on aspects of a legend, and laws banning people from discussing it from critical perspectives are best understood as anti-blasphemy laws.

It's actually 12-14 million non-combatants deliberately killed by the Nazis and their allies.

Here is what I learnt on Veeky Forums:

Apparently the holocaust is actually a reference to anyone who died in ww2. The number of jews who died during the period that encompassed ww2 is about 6 million.

Needless to say, it's a little silly that people venerate 6 million jews over the millions of other people who died during that time period. Hence, it is better to place jews alongside everyone else who passed away, and correct anyone trying to make their suffering of superior significance (unless you're a jew or a big fan of jews, of course, in which case maybe it does have special significance to you).

No, 6 million is based on population studies.

NO, its made up because I WANT IT TO BE

>it's a little silly that people venerate 6 million jews over the millions of other people who died during that time period
It's not. The extermination of Jews in Europe was Nazi policy. Other victims (excluding homosexuals, communists and Gypsies) were not genocided. Yes, millions of Poles, Russians, Serbs and others were also killed, but their total physical destruction wasn't the Nazis' goal.

tbqhwyf, the formation of and the idea behind the Einsatzgruppen alone makes specific numbers less significant to me. I've gotta hand it to holocaust deniers and "truthers". They're fighting one hell of an uphill battle for an anemic if not dead ideology.

Examples of Soviets pushing the narrative of the primacy of jewish victims?

The USSR government was 86% Jewish, it was founded by a Jew, controlled by Jews, and for all practical purposes, the USSR=Jews. 300 of their original 384 commissars were of the tribe.

Stalin killed most old bolsheviks, so your exaggerated or made up numbers of early bolsheviks are irrelevant.

It doesn't answer what I asked, I wanna see some example of Soviet propaganda pushing the narrative of the primacy of jews as victims of German brutality, as was claimed in the post I replied to.

You won't find any. Stalin was in the middle of an anti-semitic campaign in the post-war (Doctor's Plot) and posterior Soviet governments did not give a fuck about Jews since Israel was a Western ally.

Stormfag making shit up again.

>destroys synagogues
>murders rabis
>insists the patch of inhospitable wasteland it designated in the far east is the real Jewish homeland rather than Israel

What did they mean by this?

>holocaust
>muh gas chambers

read a fucking book, they started killing jews in 1939 in Poland, directly along with poles

as soon as Barbarossa started einsatzgruppens show up behind the front lines and start killing jews with the good old dig a mass grave and shoot them into it, Ukraine/Russia is full of them

>now?
Been for like decades?

Does Holocaust denial depend entirely on total ignorance of historical sources and historian analysis?

Holocaust denial depends on blocking out everything except DAAAAAAAA JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZ DEEEEEEEEEEEEEED EEEEEEEEEEEEEEET

>Stalin was in the middle of an anti-semitic campaign in the post-war
After he had supported Israel thinking it could be an ally, then turned on them once they turned to the west for help.
This is probably the most realistic explanation in the thread
>>destroys synagogues
>>murders rabis
>>insists the patch of inhospitable wasteland it designated in the far east is the real Jewish homeland rather than Israel
Jews can't be secular?
>Stalin killed most old bolsheviks, so your exaggerated or made up numbers of early bolsheviks are irrelevant.
He killed them because they knew he wasn't lenins right had man during the revolution and civil war, not because they were Jews.

>This is probably the most realistic explanation in the thread
Well, except for the part about the roughly 1.7 million people, overwhelmingly Jews, who went to the AR camps and never came out. Or about the other massive numbers of people who went to Birkenau, and again, never came out.

And of course, the part that the Germans could barely even keep their own troops fed also being massive bullshit.

So you honestly believe the Germans, who are known for being efficient, would take the time to set up death camps, with an elaborate system of gas chambers that would require huge amounts of gas and other materials to be maintained, while also needing crematoriums that could burn hundreds of bodies in extremely short periods of time (which modern ones cannot even do) while fighting a world war?
When the much easier option of simply shooting them is available, and was done on the Eastern front?
In addition to having laws making it so my simple examination of the topic is illegal.
Sorry but that doesn't add up.
I agree that saying nothing happened is inaccurate and stupid, but simply looking at the evidence, puts the accepted narrative into question.

>Germans
>efficient

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...

>So you honestly believe the Germans, who are known for being efficient,
Not even him, but stop repeating this retarded meme. The Nazis were so far from efficient it's hilarious. "Efficient" people don't have two separate, competing high commands with overlapping fields of responsibility. Efficient people don't decide to non-standardize the parts of their main weapons systems. Efficient people don't decide that to face a strategic bombing offensive, they need to massively up fighter production, but then leave fighter pilot training at the same anemic pace it was before, ensuring they have literally thousands of planes with nobody to fly them that get bombed on the ground.

> while also needing crematoriums that could burn hundreds of bodies in extremely short periods of time (which modern ones cannot even do)
So, you know nothing about cremation? Modern ones don't burn bodies super-fast because there is no need and they're restricted by safety regulations. Meanwhile, back in 1875 they were making ovens that could burn people in less than 1/3 the time of modern ovens. ia902607.us.archive.org/11/items/cremationdead00eassgoog/cremationdead00eassgoog.pdf (Page 125), and of course, wrote up a bunch of documentation stating that they could burn over 4,500 bodies in a day.

>In addition to having laws making it so my simple examination of the topic is illegal.
It isn't. Please explain why Christopher Browning's extensive examinations have not landed him in jail.

>what is source analysis?

>It isn't. Please explain why Christopher Browning's extensive examinations have not landed him in jail.
Because he lives in the United States where there are no holocaust denial laws.
If he was German or any other Western European he'd have been in jail long ago

right wing tards get out

>documents from Goebbels, Himmler, Frank, Eichmann as well as testimonies from Nazis themselves are or faked or forged
>dude check out that holocoaster doesn't it prove that it's all a hoax?

>Because he lives in the United States where there are no holocaust denial laws.
He has visited Europe for his investigations and spoken about the holocaust extensively there. Funny how he never got into trouble over said trips.

>>documents from Goebbels, Himmler, Frank, Eichmann as well as testimonies from Nazis themselves are or faked or forged
>>dude check out that holocoaster doesn't it prove that it's all a hoax?
So the fake sources you like are all guaranteed to be real, but the fake sources you don't like are guaranteed to be fake?
Hmm interesting way of thinking you've got there

>it's fake because I say so

One are official documents and information coming from the top that always get investigated the most.
The others are one of thousands witness testimonies.

We have records of the whole process. Einsatzgruppen members shot the vast majority of Holocaust victims, however, the process was cumbersome and difficult, soldiers would end up with psychological problems, alcoholism, suicide, would spill what happened to their families in letters. It's not as easy to shoot children and women in the head while watching their faces as it is to gas them by turning a knob.

We know einsatzgruppen had numerous problems with desertions and suicides. As a result, experiments were conducted with "gassing vans", but these were still cumbersome as they drew the attention of people and could only fit a few people at a time, leading to the Wansee Conference and the "Final Solution"

holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/rauff.html

We have all of this documented, Germans described this with cold-hearted efficiency, like this letter describing the operation of an experimental gassing van on the Eastern Front:

>Experience shows, however, that when the back door is closed and it gets dark inside, the load pushes hard against the door. The reason for this is that when it becomes dark inside the load rushes toward what little light is left.

>This hampers the locking of the door. It has also been noticed that the noise provoked by the locking of the door is linked to the fear aroused by the darkness. It is therefore expedient to keep the lights on before the operation and during the first few minutes of its duration. Lighting is often useful for night work and for the cleaning of the interior of the van.

We have the physical copies and scans of these letters and reports. Pic related.

Those kind of sensationalist books were never part of the accepted Holocaust narrative by historians, but propagated by opportunists and yellow press newspapers.

One last time. I don't get the deniers. If we remove gas chambers we're still left with countless cases of mass executions. If we remove concentration camps altogether we're still left with official policies of bombing civilian towns and eliminating certain groups of people like politicians, intelectuals, officers and normal civilians who just were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Basically if we take that there was no official government policy of Jew extermination we're still let with official govenment policy of exterminating others in many different ways. And they hated Jews the most.

So basically if we want to whitewash Nazi Germany we have to deny everything. It's a huge list.

This. There's a 50/50 chance either the Holocaust happened as is popularly believed, or it happened in a different way.

>fighting a world war
>why no use bulletts to genocide Jews

Are you retarded? They needed that ammo on the fronts. Also, only a minority of Jews were actually gassed immediately, mostly children and elderly. Most of them were forced to work and produce weapons, ammo and fuel (and were either worked to death, were killed when could no longer work or died of disease or hunger )

Both Soviets and Germans were already using gas vans. Another thing that deniers don't get that if they want their side to look good they're gonna have to protect the Soviets as well.

Because the overwhelming majority of deniers are in more or less agreement with Hitlerian thought. There are discrete identifiable races, which are naturally in a state of eternal conflict, of which you can only have one winner.

Thus, "The Jews" are the enemy. You'll note that holocaust denial is all about blame shifting or denying repression of Jewish victims, and other victims barely get a mention. The mere existence of a witness or scholar's religious affiliation is enough in and of itself to disqualify his or her work. You'll note that far more effort is spent discrediting Jewish authors, witnesses and academics than attempting to forge a counter-narrative.

>fighting a world war
>why no use resources to make superheavy tanks, jet bombers and terror rockets

Were they retarded?

>population studies
Lmao, there was no known decline in the Jewish population between 1933 and 1948.

In the world, or in eastern Europe?

The Anglo-American committee of Inquiry determined otherwise. Hell, you just look at wiki about Jewish demographics and there are less Jews TODAY than there were before WW2.

Hahaha the Jewish population peaked in '39 and hasn't reached the same amount yet, how ignorant can you be

Naturally. I don't think anyone expected anything else.

Awesome rebuttal, bro. You really showed him.

The Jewish population of Europe (and their society and culture) was torn apart. Jewish settlements were wiped off the map and their populations killed or sent to concentration camps, while Jewish quarters of gentile cities were emptied and their populations deported or shot. The death toll was probably in the millions due to a combination of disease, murder, starvation, and ill treatment, and most Jewish families in Europe lost members.

Including gentiles, yes.

Nice meme.

They tried shooting all of them, but gassing turned out to be less taxing on the executioners.

It's history but whatever, ignore facts you don't like

Veeky Forums does have a normie, good goy bias

You know 95% of the Bolsheviks were non-Jewish, right?

nuh uh! 94.8% you (((liar)))

No, what Veeky Forums has is a somewhat bigger proportion of people who know history. To people who know history, your claims in general sound ridiculous as fuck, it's like watching niggers claim they were Egyptian royals. That's why you're called out here. You know, insane stuff like "Danzig massacre" and other shit.
You're the niggers of the white people.

That's because most "holocaust critics" or "deniers" are just edgy neo-Nazis. "Hitler gassed six million Jews" isn't correct, but it's at least a lot closer to what happened than "lol, didn't happen".

I don't even know why it's that hard to believe on the face of it. The Third Reich didn't hide its anti-semitism under a bushel.

> If we remove concentration camps altogether we're still left with official policies of bombing civilian towns and eliminating certain groups of people like politicians, intelectuals, officers and normal civilians who just were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

That being said, everything listed here was done by the Allies. So portraying "killing Jews" (which the Allies definitely didn't do) as being the Worst Thing done by Germany has a bit of a self-serving motive.

How many of the orginal bolsheviks were Jewish?
A hell of a lot more that "5%"

In case I wasn't clear, I only want to see some examples (one at least) of Soviets pushing the narrative that jews were the primary victims of German brutality.

These were the original Bolsheviks you dense cunt.

The Bolshevik party was founded by Vladmir Lenin and Alexander Bogdanov. Neither of them were Jewish, so the original Bolsheviks had 0% Jews.

>who are known for being efficient
*explodes*

So who were these?

And these?
I won't dispute that the lower rank and file of the party wasn't overwhelmingly Jewish, but the leadership without a doubt was heavily jewish

The holocaust happened.
Nazis made an intentional effort to exterminate the jews.
Hitler likely ordered it tacitly, but not explicitly.
The high brass were all aware it happened. Many wehrmacht soldiers and civilians were probably aware it happened and did nothing to stop it, either because they agreed or out of fear.
Not all concentration camps were death camps.
Gassing was not a common method of execution.
The number of jews that died were likely far lower than the commonly cited "6 million". Perhaps 1-2 million.
Most deaths were likely from starvation and overwork.
Allied bombing probably contributed to it, but the intent of the Nazis was for the Jews to die, it wasn't a tragic accident.
And yes the Soviets likely exterminated a large number of jews as well, even though it doesn't excuse what Germany did.

A lot of ethnic poles who were accused of being jewish and 3rd/4th generation non-practicing semi-ethnic jews probably inflated the death toll.

>The number of jews that died were likely far lower than the commonly cited "6 million". Perhaps 1-2 million.
That's extremely anti-Semitic of you to say that, hope you're not in a country with holocaust denial laws ;)

>Gassing was not a common method of execution.
>The number of jews that died were likely far lower than the commonly cited "6 million". Perhaps 1-2 million.
>Most deaths were likely from starvation and overwork.
>Allied bombing probably contributed to it, but the intent of the Nazis was for the Jews to die, it wasn't a tragic accident.
>And yes the Soviets likely exterminated a large number of jews as well, even though it doesn't excuse what Germany did.
And you're basing these statements on what exactly?

IS this before or After Stalin took the Helm?

Before, obviously, seeing as Lenin is still alive and Trotsky is still in the party

The original point was that Jews had a very disproportionate representation among Soviet leaders in the beginning of the USSR

1921 I believe

For a time after they still were dominate, but Stalin killed or exiled most because they knew he wasn't actually a civil war hero, and wasn't the face of the revolution like Lenin and Trotsky

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Schlichter
>Schlichter's grandfather, originally from western Germany (Württemberg), settled in what is the present-day Poltava Oblast of Ukraine in 1818. Schlichter was ethnically one-quarter German and three-fourths Ukrainian.

Why are stormfags so pathetic they have to pretend people are Jewish?

So they guy with a Jewish surname, and who was Ukrainian (where most Jews in the USSR lived) wasn't Jewish?
How about some proof? Nowhere in that article does it say he wasn't.
Also never even been to the daily stormer so nice strawman you're attacking, try again

the burden of proof is upon you to prove he was jewish. an infographic with little to no sources isn't proof.

You're the one claiming a person with a Jewish surname isn't Jewish, burden of proof rests on you buddy

Doesn't mean he was a practicing Jew, but the evidence is that he was ethnically.

>Implying Schlichter is a Jewish surname at all.
What evidence? That an anonymous guy said he was? Posts ending in 71 are Jewish posts, prove you're not one of (((them)))

you're making assumptions. i'm asking for sourced evidence to prove that everyone in that list was a jew, practicing or not. i'm not even the same dude you were arguing with.

>>Implying Schlichter is a Jewish surname at all.
Try googling it you dipshit
avotaynu.com/books/DJSGNames.htm
Do a search of this for Schlichter

Robert Wilton, the Russian correspondent of The Times. In 1920 he published a book in French, Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs, which gave the racial background of all the members of the Soviet government. (This does not appear in the later English translation, for some odd reason.)
Heres the source

Sorry I don't have the state archives of Tsarist Russian, imperial Germany, and wherever else all these people came from.
It's from a primary source from the time