I've heard it said that allying with Hitler was the worst mistake Mussolini made...

If you actually go through the amount of German troops fighting on Italian fronts (especially in North Africa) you'll find that German support wasn't significant at all

Yes, it absolutely would be. Especially if they followed the Spanish and Swedish model. Italy had a respectable industrial base, merchant marine, good geographical position and would be able to supply goods and arms to either side as they pleased. Although they would probably mostly deal with the Germans.

>didn't have a choice

Bullshit, like people have said he could have just been like Franco and stayed out of it, and probably as a result wouldn't have died until decades later.

>Would Hitler have really invaded Italy had Mussolini simply remained neutral?
Invading Italy from the North is a fucking nightmare. Hitler wasn't a complete retard, he wouldn't have done it.

Franco and Hitler also had a terrible first meeting that soured things. Franco showed up 3 hours late (Hitler is autistic about that shit), and Hitler was infamous for eating like a pig (Franco was one of those "always eat like a gentlemen" guys)

>Hitler wasn't a complete retard, he wouldn't have done it.
He did it anyway by the war's end.

>Franco showed up 3 hours late
In fairness that wasn't his fault, the train was delayed

He already had troops in Italy at that point. If in September of 1940 Hitler autistically invaded Italy because Mussolini didn't want to join in the latest Germanic chimpout, it would just bog down to the Isonzo Front 2:Electric Boogaloo

Didn't Franco show up late by deliberately taking a nap to make Hitler wait? Or was that a different meeting

>Allied High Command thought this was the soft underbelly of Rome

With terrain like that you gotta know things are gonna go slow

I swear I've read this post verbatim word-by-word before.

Yeah they were somewhat wrong. The Italian campaign doesn't come to an end until May 2, 1945 not even a full week before Germany as a whole surrenders.

Because of 20/20 hindsight we can see that Hitler was absolutely retarded. At the time of Mussolini allying Germany he didn't actually know that Hitler would dig himself and everyone around him into the biggest grave in history and as so a powerful ally in germany seemed reasonable.

I've posted it before because people keep making the same topics.

Also people need to keep in mind that Hitler really admired Mussolini for pulling off his blackshirt march and wanted to do what he did, and Benito isn't about to turn away someone who's kissing his ass so hard that his lips are chapped.

I really wonder what the state of fascism would be if Mussolini had kept neutral like Franco or even bided his time and came in on the side of the Allies later in the war. Mussolini was a pretty popular guy globally I believe, especially in the United States, where IIRC the New Deal took some inspiration from the corporatist policies of fascist Italy.

A fascist Italy that stays neutral or alligns with the Allies in the war maybe leads to fascism not being equated with Naziism and whatnot and thus seen as a viable political choice. Not to say whether that's good or bad mind you, just interesting to think about.

>I really wonder what the state of fascism would be if Mussolini had kept neutral like Franco or even bided his time and came in on the side of the Allies later in the war.

Still would've been demonized because of Hitler.

Boy I wonder how they 'invaded'

Not really. People in the 30s recognized there was a difference. Between nazism and Italian fascism. The fact that Italy and Germany join forces is what makes the modern brainlet think they're the same thing and think Mussolini is deserving of the same treatment as Hitler

Fascism and Nazism would be considered more of a separate ideology. Although it depends on how much they cooperated with Germany before the war. Francoist Spain was quite isolated for a long time even though they barely cooperated with the Nazis - fascism would be less vilified but would still be viewed with suspicion and wouldn't become mainstream. Openly fascist parties would pop up but I doubt they could win anywhere.

Spain and Italy might try to create their own block but it wouldn't be very powerful and they would soon try to liberalize their economy to get a piece of that sweet post-war economic boom (which Franco did irl). Eventually the Fascist system would reform or collapse in both countries.

Mussolini would still be a controversial figure - how he is viewed would depend on how well he leads Italy, if he develops a strong economy, he could have more admirers ("well, he was a dictator but Italy was a mess so we kind of needed that and look at all the factories and roads he built"). Historians would debate however how much of an inspiration he was to Hitler and in some way responsible for what the Nazis did.

Remaining neutral but helping Germany materially and with volunteers might have been a much better idea. As seen by their performance, Italy was in no shape to try and conquer territory. Ultimately the African and Balkan, and later the Italian mainland theatres tied down a large number of German troops/planes/u-boats that could have been better used elsewhere.

>People in the 30s recognized there was a difference.

Yes but we don't live in the 30s anymore. And today people don't treat Mussolini the same as Hitler, he's seen today as comical even though he was a brutish thug that would openly beat people half to death.

By that time Italy had no means of resisting.

As an Italian, they could have hit us when we were at full strength and it would probably still be the same result. Italy never recovered from the Roman Empire's fall.

They would eventually find oil in Lybia

Italy had an actually well-designed line of fortifications along the Alps that you can't just go around. The Germans wouldn't have been able to meme all over the Italians like most people think.

ofcourse he had a choice but then he would have to give up on the adriatic coastline and britain would most likely occupy libia too

if not face occupation like norway (remember the allies wanted norway too, germany was just faster)

its just in a too good position to be left alone

>that you can't just go around

Italy would never have been able to withstand a naval assault from Germany.

His army, industry, air force needed a amount of technical aid. He got some of but not all of the need levels of that by allying with Hitler. Also Hitler was most agreeable source of technical aid for Mussolini.

Why did he need technical aid in the first place?

For starters he had a goal of removing economic dependence for Italy on trade with France and the UK. Germany was a way to do that, both via trade and technology transfer. That part worked out for him.

Second the Italians felt that they had a not small beef with France and the UK for being screwed and the end of WWI negotiations. Honesty they did not get every thing they were promised for entering the war and lost a very respectable amount of men and money in WWI. Germany also had a beef with France and the UK. Allying with the Germans was a way to try to get back at those two.

Lastly Mussolini wanted a European empire. That means he would be going to war mostly as part of that goal. Have a strong ally would only help with that.

Franco and Mussolini were not in the same boat. Franco had to re build a nation after a civil war. Mussolini, and his supporters who got him into power, wanted to make Italy into a true great power.

That's an odd conjecture given the logistical and geographical difficulties for Germany to launch a naval invasion into Italy. It's also worth considering that the Italian navy was by far their most competent branch of their military during WW2

>It's also worth considering that the Italian navy was by far their most competent branch of their military during WW2

Yeah that's like being the fastest runner with cerebral palsy.

>this is what naziboos actually believe
German couldn't even hope to get their fleet to the Mediterranean let alone defeat a full-strength Regia Marina. The Italians had one of the best navies at the outbreak of WW2. The British and the Americans only manage to defeat the Italians by depriving them of their fuel. 6/7 Italian battleships survive until September of 1943.

The Royal Navy was scared shitless of the Regia Marina for a reason. British ships weren't even safe in their own ports during the Battle of the Mediterranean. Despite holding literally every advantage the British fail to truly defeat the Regia Marina.

>naziboo

No, just an Italian that knows that when the chips are down, we drop the ball.

>Germany could just invade through the alps
>Germany could launch a naval invasion from germany that the british are completely ok with to just pass through gibraltar and then not get crushed by the italian navy who severly out match them in the middle of the mediterranean where germany have literally 0 air support and the italians have a dozen air bases near by.
This is your brain on wehraboo.

Nah man he totally would've demanded his tanks and tendies be moved through the mountains just like a certain someone with his elephants and tendies
It would've been far too poetic to not happen tbf

You drop the ball because if you were the guys in charge you would be dumb enough to try and invade italy from germany

The Regia Marina doesn't drop the ball neither does the Regia Aeronautica. Don't fall for Anglo-German memes.

You know Luigi's son was a Lieutenant General in the Italian army - he literally could have come back to finish what his dad started

But what about the rest of the Regia Marina bisides those battleships? They had heavy losses.

>The Italians had one of the best navies at the outbreak of WW2.

They were a distance 4th place. However they were a good bit stronger then French Navy.

Yeah Raffaele Cadorna Jr. and he would eventually become Chief of Staff of the Italian army. Although he was actually competent unlike Luigi. There is actually a whole line of Cadorna generals

The Germans didn't have a snowballs chance in hell of defeating the Regia Marina

They lose a good number of heavy cruisers at Cape Matapan but most engagements in the Mediterranean are inconclusive. The Italian navy was still a formidable force when the Armistice was signed. They had a good number of ships.
This is their strength at the end of WW2
>2 incomplete and damaged aircraft carriers
>5 battleships
>9 cruisers
>11 destroyers
>22 frigates
>19 corvettes
>44 fast coastal patrol units
>50 minesweepers

Hitler had no way of invading Italy.
In an ideal world war two scenario, The Allies and Italy invade Germany when Germany invades Austria.

Did I say anything about the German Navy winning against the Regia Marina? No I did not.

The 3 nations with more powerful navies in 1939 were the Uk, the Japanese Empire, and the US. The USN completely overtook the IJN by about mid 1940 and had previously been stronger then the IJN before about 1933.

In June 1940 the Italians had well... a lot more then that.

ww2-weapons.com/italian-air-force-and-navy/

>The Allies and Italy invade Germany when Germany invades Austria.

Italy had no real reason to be part of the Allies and had reasons to be hostile to them.

No really they did.

Even after not entering WWI on the side of the central powers they had alliance to the Italian government was repeatedly threatened by the Allies with sanctions that would be backed with force. After they joined the war on the winning side they did not get what they were promised. Then they were fucked during the Washington naval treaties. Then the Allies backed the other side of the Spanish civil war. There is a lot of more minor things as well the UK and France during to make the Italians hostile to them.

>Germany at least contesting the Regina Marina would not be a prerequisite for a naval invasion of Italy

Stop talking m8

Even more hilarious if you think about that US politicians and even Roosevelt admired Mussolini for his stance on big industry and banks. Roosevelt felt completely betrayed after Mussolini signed the Pact of Steel. US had actually invested 400 million dollars in interwar Italy, during Hoover's presidency.

When did I say anything about Germany attacking Italy? Lets see...

Oh right, Never! The poster that you were arguing with left a long time ago. The topic of discussion that argument was over has come and gone.

he had 2,5 choices

Either attack Hitler in 1938 during the Anschluss.
Or back up Czechoslovakia in 1938 later, this could bring UK and France on the Czechoslovak side, if he was smart enough, he could try to promise Poland Silesia or something so they could join Czechoslovakia instead of Hitler.

Second choice is staying neutral and instead of Pact of Steel forming another aliance with Greece, Hungary/Romania and Bulgaria, maybe Turkey. He could stay out of the war and have mini-cold war with Hitler.