Is America making the same mistakes Rome did?

Great post. Very related to anything. Not shitpost or anything.

Honestly I don't think we're in the Empire period yet, we haven't dropped the pretenses of democracy currently. We're in late Republic period right now, and the question is, will we get people like Sulla.

We're just supposed to repeat the pattern, not the entire act down to the same characters, though.

tbf have we even gotten to punic war tier episode yet? I mean WWII wasn't an existential threat in retrospect since we outproduced the world. i say were still in the "Middle Republic" phase as the Republic remains viable but becomes increasingly undermined by expansionist imperialism from 220-130 b.c.-ish.
Late Republic is a culmination of a shitload of bad social and economic trends and I still think we have around 100 years before we get to that point.

Nah, we're fine.

Obvi

Feel free to freak out when we skip the economic cloak and dagger to outright taking stuff militarily on a large scale.

>tbf have we even gotten to punic war tier episode yet?

Mexican-American war.

I dont see how that will become a viable strategy in the modern age due to the US manpower reserves and the general resentment against occupation and thats not even getting into the monetary costs which are just absurd to think about.

Look up yuan backed oil securities

considering rome lasted for two millenia, we might as well make those mistakes. That's an unbelievable time scale for most people today.

See >Age of Pioneers
Beginning of the country up until the push west starts.
>Age of Conquests
The push west, conquests of native tribes (Trail of Tears ect.) and ends with the Civil War
>Age of Commerce
Post-Civil War until before WW1.
>Age of Affluence
WW1 until the US enters WW2
>Age of Intellect
WW2 until the mid 1990's.
>Age of Decadence
9/11 until now.

Suprised no ones mentioned racial politics. I feel like America is the least unified country today. No one even considers themselves american, just black, mexican, asian, white. And our higher education actively shames the country and it's history.

The primary 'mistake' of Rome was descending into oligarchy and then into Empire. America is certainly doing the former, but the military structure of modern America is completely incomparable to Rome, so further analogy between the two falls flat.

>Age of Affluence
>Great depression
Affluence is post WW2
Intellect is Fall of USSR to 9/11
Decadence is Until 2008
Decline is recession onwards

Taking in Germans, yes.

the oligarchy is teh natural progression of an society and should be welcomed. As well as teh formation of a socratic King

As for the mistakes, their priniciple mistake, as every person who ever lived, was impiety. Should they remain opposed to the world of impiety and fight for justice their power will remain. But, Marxism is wheedling its way into the country, so that should be uprooted to continue down the path of Empire.

Comparing America to Rome is probably the biggest sign that somebody doesn't know a whole lot about either country.

>but the military structure of modern America is completely incomparable to Rome.

Not completely. Marian reforms = GI Bill, VA and abandonment of the draft Army. The US has, like the late Republic turned military service from a civic responsibility into an economic opportunity for the poor.

Oligarchs already control the political apparatus of the US, so all we need is the separation of the the military and political apparatus' of the state to erode and Julius Caesar is right around the corner.

Much of the American system was based on the Roman system.

They even used similar architecture, names and symbolism.

They also had slavery, large conquests, regional (in case of America global) hegemony which resulted in a long period of peace being kept between the great powers, affluence, a cultural revolution, and now an influx of foreigners.

The problem is the presence of nationalism and modern state structure take away the two key failings of Romes military. The soldiers are by and large loyal to the state even if the military has trended the Marian route in the face of manpower. A band of soldiers selling off the office of President for cash is unthinkable. Likewise, the generals do not have direct control over their mens pay, are not distanced for long periods from central authority, and have little opportunity to form cult of personality. The weakness of America right now is a talented populist demagogue in the executive, not the military. This makes it uniquely different than the situation in Rome near the fall of the Republic.

The decadence began right after WW2 you twats

>The decadence
literally means Christianity

He's talking about military power being wielded to take imperial power. America currently has no analog to that situation and will continue to be a de-facto oligarchic semi-democratic representative republic.

>defensiveness
red-scare, mccarthyism, cold war
>pessimism
preparing for nuclear war, existentialism
>materialism
consumerism took off in the 50s
>frivolity
began in the 60s and skyrocketed in the 70s
>influx of foreigners
applies to the late 19th and early 20th century more than to any other period.
>the welfare state
The New Deal, Great society, gi bill, NHA, etc.
>a weakening of religion
has been in steady decline for a very long time actually

Ever since 9/11, the US has been legally in a state of war (against terrorism) and the president can legally start wars without the consent of the congress.

The Syrian intervention was taken under the legal pretext of (at the time) a 14 year old authorization of military force.

So, the divorce of the military from the legislature has already happened.

God is dead. Hence there is no empire-crushing decadence in the USA

The US hasn't officially declared war since Korea. That doesn't mean the US military has control over our country. The president's power isn't derived from the army like Ceasar's was, like the emperors of Rome were.

>applies to the late 19th and early 20th century more than to any other period.
The demographic shift from 1965 onwards has had a bigger impact than the gilded age immigration. That immigration was still coming from Europe (Roman analogy would be Italy or Greece)

The imperial adminstration's methods for enforcing their control changed over time. But it wasn't force theory that made people do what they said. That was just how they formed their government from time to time.

>demographic shift
So by "foreigners" you mean "colored people" instead of "foreigners"
So what "demographic shift" do you mean? Mexicans are assimilating pretty well and their the only significant change.
Okay.

The military is not loyal to the executive branch. It's more loyal to it than congress maybe, but an order to march into Washington and 'further the interests of the people' or whatever have you would be ignored. The command structure of the army is centralized, indoctrinated, educated, and firmly a-political for the moment. Sulla and Ceasar are simply impossible under the current state of affairs. Populist demagogues will need a different route to power than military coup.

The military is notriously disloyal to everyone in this country. Even their oaths are nonsenscial. Swearing to honor a piece of paper. It would be no surprise if they marched on the capital.

>They also had slavery
For their entire history. We got rid of our slaves long ago, and more importantly due to slavery being based on skin color, you could actually tell who was a slave in the US unlike in Rome where physically they didn't look different from nomal plebians.

Right but it doesn't need to be exactly like Rome. The president's power derives from his electoral legitimacy and control of the organs of government.

All military authority is under the domain of a single person and that position can typically be bought with a few billion dollars (Jeb!/Clinton strategy).

Wealth can still buy you power. And suppose you deploy that power domestically to "Protect the republic", you get a Sulla/Caesar/Octavian situation.

The US still has slaves in the form of prisoners. A lot of DREAMers are second class citizens who imitate some qualities of slavery.

You should look up what notorious means. The average citizen does not view the military as disloyal, whatever you might think.

The problem is that we don't have a situation in this country where our soldiers are loyal to our generals and not the state. If anything, the grunts don't like officers and vice versa.

>exicans are assimilating pretty well
my sides

The Roman Legions were formed in the name of "The Senate and People of Rome" as well.

thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2016/04/29/hispanic-immigration-and-the-demographic-decline-of-america/

>Vietnam
>the leakers
>civil war defectees
>thier head soldier the president is accused of war crimes no matter the era
its notorious. People respect the military, but republic militaries are naturally untrustworthy.

The US still has slaves, they're just called undocumented immigrants.

The President is literally the highest ranking general.

>second class citizens
They actually aren't citizens at all, not second class, no third class, no class at all.

Told you you should've invested in PMs

I get what you mean, but DACA and military service seem to imitate some forms of second class citizenship.

That doesn't make them loyal to the President above other authorities in a contest for the state control. The President can command the military, if they'd obey is more important.

>implying that the vast majority of americans regardless of race aren't wage slaves in the present day

Who would they defect to?

Congress and the Constitution, at the current time.

More importantly, the whole reason Sulla can do that was twofold
>Rome had no police
>there was a law saying that the military could not be in Rome

Which means that all you needed was a bunch of hired thugs and you controlled Rome.

Does congress and the constitution pay them or does the pentagon pay them?

Their kids growing up here are the same kind of lazy assholes every other ethnic group is in the US so clearly they're adapting pretty well.

You think you could, right now, in 2017, pay the military enough money to overthrow the government?

Unimformal "second class citizenship" is called permanent residence, AKA people with green cards. DACA people are just illegal trespassers with delayed punishment.

>the entire us military would defect to congress who has no legal authority over them save the defunct right to declare war
has never happend in the history of republics. The congress are the guys who get shit on by soldiers for not paying them more.
>the constit
that would equate to the president

Probably yes

forwardprogressives.com/43-of-republicans-say-they-could-support-a-military-overthrow-of-the-united-states-government/

The military (doubly so for actual combat troops) is overwhelming Republican

>they're adapting pretty well

The fact is wage slavery is not the same thing because even if you are a wage slave, you have the right to just leave and go elsewhere. It's generally a bad idea, but you actually have the choice unlike a slave who can't go anywhere or they'll be killed.

This is a better source

today.yougov.com/news/2015/09/09/could-coup-happen-in-united-states/

Pretty sure they're not so stupid that they don't know what would happen if they tried.

Overthrowing the government for ideological reasons is not overthrowing it for money and personal advancement. The state propaganda of freedom and the constitution is deeply ingrained in the military. A communist revolution would happen before a neo-Praetorian takeover to ensure their pay.

This only just shows that these people are stupid enough to believe that will live through such a coup. I don't think they understand just how devastating a coup would be in a first world nation.

Doesn't need to be planned for an individual's personal aggrandizement, they could just take advantage of a crisis and suspend ordinary procedure indefinitely (in fact this is usually what happens).

I can cherrypick too user, like this.
If anything white people are failing to assimilate to the American ideal since white internet Nazis are shilling for fascism

What's the American ideal?

That type of language is hollow now.

>American ideal

Not him but you can't even tell me what the american ideal is. Nor can anyone because it was purposely designed to be vague and nebulous.

Whatever the fake news has been feeding you about it isn't true gweilo.

Some sort of representative democracy with freedoms guaranteed to all citizens something internet Nazis are fundamentally against

Then that's not very similar to Rome. where it was entirely overthrown for personal aggrandizement by willing accomplices in the legions. Though populism was complicit in it, the legions ultimately did not overthrow the senate for being 'corrupt', or some ideological reason. They did because Ceasar said so, and he was the one paying them.

Is this a /pol/ thread?
>yes

American ideal as founding fathers imagined it involved niggers in chain picking cotton so be careful what you wish for.
Also white people are the founder race, so there's nothing they could assimilate into, they already are "it".

all thats implying is a great depression which america survived anyway

political and ideological tension in america was worse in the late 1910s than today

there is far more differences to the situation between rome and america than similarities

Actually the American ideal is supposed to be equality of opportunity, the idea that everyone potentially could even become president if they play their cards right. I'm not saying I believe it's entirely true, but that is the ideal.

>political and ideological tension in america was worse in the late 1910s than today
This. People like to bitch about cultural marxists today, but back in the early 1900s was when actual communists had ground among common people and not just academics. Mainly because at the time it had yet to be attempted in a major nation so all we had was the idea on paper.

no, USA is much worse, in ancient Rome they didn't treat Romans as second class citizens at the expense of subhuman barbarians

White people are dying out so it doesn't matter what they think

t. buttmad darkie

America survive the great depression because it made concessions. Rome fell because the oligarchy refused reform and thought it was working, until the day the people turned their back on the republic and rioted. America of today is a very different place than the great depression, one far less willing to make compromise with increasingly less patience from the populace. The people will just grow increasingly radical until reform happens or a true populist seizes power and makes it happen. Do you really see a 'new deal' happening in 2017?

Or dont because he is wrong about almost everything

>Rome fell because the oligarchy refused reform and thought it was working

Did they though? Did they really think it was working, or did they just want to keep the gravy train going SO BADLY that they were willing to murder anyone who tried to change that?

t. endangered animal

>in Rome where physically they didn't look different from nomal plebians.

They distinguished by culture.

The thing that destroyed Rome's republic is something America never had, and it's an environment where people are actively encouraged to be ambitious to the point of publicly murdering people that get in the way of your ambition.

It might see UBI.
We'll still be replaced by robots though

They certainly underestimated the beginnings of the Social War, and nobody expected Sulla to walk in and proclaim himself dictator for life. The latins demanded citizen a dozen times, there were a dozen generals of Sula's popularity in Roman history. Incidents of the populace near rioting were isolated, and entirely the fault of a few dangerous men, surely killing them will solve the problem. I don't think any Roman Senator truly thought the Republic was coming to an end until it was over.

And it would be different 50 years ago
More different 100 years ago
Distant 150 years ago
Very distant 200 years ago
Unrelatable 250 years ago

Most of the traits probably relating to self-sufficiency, maintenance of liberty, informed citizenry, rule of law, family, dignity, honor, property, sovereignty, patriotism, etc.

And now you're telling me the ideal American is being here.

It's a big distinction though. The roman slaves could never tell how many fellow slaves were among them in rome, which is why rome made sure slaves couldn't be branded because then they'd realize how much they outnumber the romans.

Blacks could just look around and see if someone is black or not.