Asian Martial Arts

Asia was still basically medieval until 100 years ago, so they've still got all their old shit. They haven't had time to go to the tip to chuck it away.

The only worthwhile gook martial art is judo and that's not even old.
t. knower

they're a modern invention. this is what they actually looked like prior to kung fu movies.
youtu.be/2FsZyPjsjTA?t=269

basically they were less necessary/useful in europe and the middle east cause 90% of people carried knives 90% of the time

Spirituality is fine. Many frauds, conmen, or otherwise overzealous "masters" open dojos however and create mini cults where the students are dependent on them, if not outright brainwashing. Why spend a year staring at a soda can when you can just hit a boxing gym and learn how to stand and jab right off the bat?

Of course not, Modern MMA and the styles that helped build it are almost certainly the best under MMA style rules or a similar setting, and its good training overall because its applicable to a lot of modern situations.

I dont think the local shotokan or Tai Chi guy is going to walk into the ring and consistently win.

But that isn't the point. thats like saying a Philips head screw driver is the best at taking off Philips head screws so its the best kind of screw driver.

for example look at yoshin ryu, the now extinct great grandfather of judo. It was designed in a time when duels and mass battles were still in living memory. and the art was designed with that in mind.

They tried to keep up with the times, they beat Kano and his 1st generation of judoka, but at their heart they were a style for people who wore two swords on their waist. For the same reason you wouldn't use Fiore's grappling in the octagon you probably would not use classical jujutsu

That is not to say I think all fighting styles are equal mind you, but some were developed with a different purpose in mind. An art is good if it does what it claims to. If a system only claims to provide physical education or a meditative experience within the framework of fighting techniques, and it does, than it is a good system, though not necessarily ideal for fighting

The only good post

OP here, fpbp

>Most east Asian martial arts the public is familiar with are actually quite young, and many were created in the twentieth century. Arts going back more than two hundred years are few and far between.

Yes, even the "ancient" origins of Wing Chun go back to fighting the Qing, so really not that long ago. But China was medieval and feudal then.

>Classical Asian styles were not that different from what is persevered in Hema manuals: They tended to focus on weapons,
>grappling and striking were also taught of course, particularly in arts formulated during peace time.

This is what I was looking for. Clearly we're all human, and the optimal ways of fighting are going to be the same. I've gathered that HEMA was some serious stuff over the years browsing /k/

>Some would even argue modern western combat sports, with an admixture of Asian arts but also drawing on boxing and wrestling have surpassed most authentic Asian systems.

Obviously, if you combine different methods of combat and keep what works best, it will be quite effective but maybe not especially coherent as a "style"

That said there are a few hold outs going back to premodern times that have been more or less preserved.

The modernization of Japan and China is relatively recent so its not surprising larger amounts of their early modern culture survived the transition

>Clearly we're all human, and the optimal ways of fighting are going to be the same.

There is a lot of cross over but there were a lot of cultural differences and different theories on things like body organization as well. people mock Chinese internal styles but a lot of the exercises and models they used were integrated in fighting arts all over Asia, even the Japanese used them. They were a big part of some of the most successful jujutsu styles

Kek, it just looks like spastic boxing

Yeah a boxer would tear them apart

That and Muay Thai. Judo is insanely influential. It spawned Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo.

>Muay Thai.
Muay thai is over rated garbage.
Not a single K1 WGP Champion had a background in muay thai, it was either TKD or kyokushin karate.
>inb4 K1 Max
Only heavyweights matter

A European person who trained in eastern martial arts and went back to Europe could seriously wreck shit up. Most monarchs and nobles didn't have much security. Imagine a ninja just killing the palace guards at night and then killing the king

Sorry forgot to say in early modern times

Why are you comparing MMA or UFC to real-life fights?

You're a fucking idiot if you think all there is to martial arts is who can kill the other guy first.

Ninja's were not super agents. Yes, there were assassins, but those are everywhere.

MMA has a lot in common with certain kinds of "real life" fights. Its a pretty good simulator of affective violence, which is most violence that a normal person is likely to get into because its the most socially acceptable

But even then it translates to most other kinds of fighting pretty well, say what you will about other arts but MMA guys are not wrong in saying they have a top tier system in terms of applicability

What if couple of cunts gang you in the alleyway with kitchen knives?

Why can't we return when people challenged each other on te streets, supervised and until first drew blood?

Martial artists always practice these complicated flashy moves but then as soon as they stat sparring they become boxers throwing simple punches and kicks.

If you've ever watched Olympic Taekwondo it's more like fencing with legs than fighting.

iirc, some top MMA guy managed to wrestle succesfully people trying to stab him... well he got cut a bit but he got them in the end.

Also, because now the state is completely in charge of the rightful violence.

Knife = run. You with a knife vs knife? Run.

this guy gets it.

No shit. Yet sometimes you can't "just" run or run immediately.
You should always get in a situation where you can run but there are scenarii where it's not possible from the get go (retreat is cut, you're with someone who can't run as fast, you're already being attacked by surprise, etc.)

Yeah its not ideal for knife fighting, a Filipino knife fighter would probably beat a MMA guy in a knife fight.

But most people dont get into knife fights.

Knife fights: Loser dies in an alleyway, winner dies in an ambulance

This was something that our teacher told us all the time in kali/eskrima.
I really enjoyed that the mentality was down to earth and not some ninja mumbo jumbo

That is an exaggeration, no one claims knife fights are safe, but the idea they always result in both parties dying is nonsense.

you can be trained for a knife fight same as you can be trained for a sword fight.

Now being jumped and stabbed twenty times is a different story, which is how it usually goes. When most people think knife fight they are really thinking knife duel.

>That is an exaggeration, no one claims knife fights are safe, but the idea they always result in both parties dying is nonsense.

Gee, I don't know. If youre left arm is tied to your opponents left arm and youre forced into a close range battle where its inevitable that even if you stab them in a vital spot, theyll stab you back- yeah, maybe you will die in an ambulance even if you win.

yeah that is possibility with any fight with live blades.

But knife fighting and even schools of knife fighting go back hundreds of years. The idea you cant drastically improve your odds in an encounter with a knife is nonsense.

East Asian martial arts are literally a meme though. The entire thing is just fake bullshit. Especially Kung Fu and Aikido. They are of NO PRACTICAL USE.

>its all practicality and materialism to them
>A chinaman said this

Shaolin is not a martial arts, it's the name of a monastery. You're referring to Shaolin Style.

Also modern Shaolin =/= the OG Shaolin martial arts, which were militaristic as fuck and involved weaponry and formations given that Chinese monks in remote monasteries expected to defend themselves vs. banditry and even fight in wars.

>They almost certainly do not all have an origin in Shaolin, and while there are all sorts of connections its more like a spider web than a tree. Japanese arts in particular tend to be far different than continental ones.
Karate's original name was "Tang Dynasty (i.e. Chinese) Hand" and has its origins in Chink Martial Arts.

>don't mean more established stuff like Karate, I mean some of the kung fu nonsense so many dojos try to peddle.
>All Kung Fu is the same.
Mkay.

Sanshou Sanda is basically kickboxing.

Meanwhile, after domesticating the horse and delivering the compound bow to the world from the back of a chariot, some white looking faggot drinks soma and laughs at you.

Karate is an adopted Japanese martial art. It isn't a native form.

I always heard about about this guy or that guy, or the friend of a friend who knows a guy, but I have never ever seen convincing evidence of some guy using grappling techniques to handle more than one opponent.
Striking arts have one or two videos of guys taking more than one guy, but grappling?

THIS GUY IS RIGHT. , it has nothing to do with fucking mma you goofs. firearms killed the western martial arts , resulting in it splintering into pale mockeries of its original beauty. Larping, Fencing and film . ONE FUCKING DUDE is practically responsible for EVERY GOOD SWORD MOVIE YOU HAVE EVER SEEN. lotr, starwars, errol flynn shit, its bob anderson. Watch the documentary reclaiming the blade, its about legit attempts to keep western martial arts alive,

limetorrents.cc/Reclaiming-The-Blade-2009-DVDRip-XviD-SPRiNTER-torrent-1145.html

Well I re-found the story, it was "only" one particularly angry duded armed with a knife and when mma guy finally realized it was a knife attack he punched his opponent (first time he threw him to the ground). It was Guy Mezger (no idea who he is, but he must have been ok to get away of a knife attack, several in fact).

Don't know about your points though... I wouldn't disagree actually.

>firearms killed the western martial arts
western martial arts were still out there and very strong up until the 19th century, while civilian handguns were used since the middle of the 16th century, military portable guns were used since the beginning of the 15th century.
Repeating firearms killed the western martial arts, those and the creation of the modern police force and regulation of private violence. There's no one reason.

Also the Duellists's fights were pretty good, but not because they tried to be realistic but emotional (and they weren't Bob Anderson's).

This show made by HK is quite good, I highly recommend it. There are whole 3 seasons on youtube with Eng sub.

Kung Fu Quest
youtu.be/LBPzaxP2Cvs
youtu.be/sXCZhXdebxU

Myself was a TKD and Baijiquan practitioner.

Western martial arts were still there into the 19th century, and certainly the officer class valued them, but in terms of importance skill at arms was all about the use of firearms en masse.

Mass produced firearms relatively quickly rendered almost all other weapons obsolete, and so went the skills with them.

But that's out of the topic, martial arts is mostly a civilian thing, not a military one. Even in Japan, martial arts flourished out of proportion during times of relative peace and it's the same in Europe. In the 18th century, you had extremely talented fencers (classic story but check out Jean-Louis Michel duels for instance) even though firearms were indeed the main weapons of the armies.

Martial arts is mostly a middle to upper-mid-class activity, was then, was now, it has little to do with armies which were trained differently. Also, it took something like two and a half centuries for swords and pikes to disappear from the field after firearms were commonly introduced, so it wasn't a quick change either.

Martial arts ultimately have military application, because they are the systems by which soldiers use their weapons. I don't think it's reasonable to say that they were the preserve of civilians, as in the eras we're talking about, the distinction wasn't always that clear. Those with the time and resources to engage in practicing martial arts to their nth degree owed much of their social position to military service.

In any case, if a weapon becomes obsolete, the martial art tends to goes with it (even if it survives as a prestige activity, like duelling).

>as in the eras we're talking about
Which one exactly?

Also, not really disagreeing, but there were a lot of salles in the 16-18th centuries who weren't adressed for military purposes but for civilian fencing. Some soldiers certainly attended them, but there was a lot of gentlemen who probably never fought in an army as well.

There certainly are "military martial arts" and "civilian martial arts", sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don't. Many famous european masters-at-arms (like Fabris or Calvacabo) weren't in the military or don't refer to it, it wasn't important or relative to it for them. What mattered was the quality of their pedagogy and fencing theory.

Same thing in Japan, many systems weren't to train soldiers but a handful of bushi dedicated to budo as a lifestyle. Koryu as they were were kinda out of the world (of the battlefield), they were a "gentlemen" activity that looked good on a resume, but wasn't for the hardcore practictioners in the pursuit of actual prowess on the field.

You have a very distorted view of Asian martial arts.

Well in both Europe and Japan there were training halls that focused on "military swordsmanship" Though that distinction can be a relative one.

What about South Asian or Western Asian martial arts? Don't Persians have some form of grappling plus wrestling and striking combat style that has lasted since the Achaemenid days? Pahlavan or something like that?

Everyone has some form of wrestling, its pretty much universal.