Was Christopher Columbus a bad guy, or is it revisionist history?
He really was terrible guy, even by the standards of the time.
Proof or am I supposed to just take your word for it?
I dont understand your pic
source: his competitor
He expanded the geographic knowledge of western Europeans and ushered in an era of exploration. He should be praised for it.
Hitler also rejuvinated the morale of the German people's. Doesn't men he was a good person or had a net positive effect on the world
>inb4 /pol/tard
>good v bad
He was jailed by the Spanish Crown for being a dick. The same country that initiated the Inquisition. I mean look at his portrait, you can tell he was an asshole.
source: a priest who went along w/ Columbus who, like the other Spaniards, were okay with the super shitty killings/rapings of the indigenous peeps in the carribbean, until he pulled his head out of his ass, got angry over it, and documented it. Go Las Casas, go.
He was good because of his cruelty, not in spite of it.
>Doesn't men he was a good person or had a net positive effect on the world
You better not live in North or South America because you literally would not be here if not for Colombus.
>2 massive continents would have never been discovered or colonized
and what exactly did Bartolome de Las Casas say about Colombus?
literally speculation m8. could have had sex bots and free heroin by the 1800s if columcuck didn't arrive for all we know.
>This happened in history therefore it would have happened inevitably even if the people who actually did it are removed from history.
How stupid do you have to be to believe this?
If colonization of a continent is inevitable because of it's size where are all the Aztec colonies in Asia?
this is how he felt about the spanish colonization in general. full text of his speech linked in the comments.
(gilderlehrman.org
> Las Casas came to Hispaniola, in the Caribbean, in 1502 with a land grant, ready to seek his fortune. A Dominican friar nurtured Las Casas’s interest in the priesthood as well as his sympathy toward the suffering of the native inhabitants. In 1509, Las Casas renounced his land grant, released his slaves, and returned to Rome to take his religious vows. He returned to Hispaniola in 1512 as the first ordained priest in the Americas and denounced the Spanish exploitation of the Indians and the military conquest of the New World.
> His efforts to end the encomienda system of land ownership and forced labor culminated in 1550, when Charles V convened the Council of Valladolid in Spain to consider whether Spanish colonists had the right to enslave Indians and take their lands.
> Citing the Bible and canon law, Las Casas responded, “All the World is Human!” He contradicted Sepulveda’s assertions that the Indians were barbarous, that they committed crimes against natural law, that they oppressed and killed innocent people, and that wars should be waged against infidels. Las Casas managed to convinced the theologians at Valladolid that the Spanish policy was unjust and had to change. However, his victory had no impact on the colonists, who continued to enslave American Indians. Las Casas has been called the “father of anti-imperialism and anti-racism,” and he greatly influenced the drive to abolish the Spanish encomienda system.
dank motherfucker
No it's literally fact "m8" because you and I are the product of specific historical events. If those historical events do not happen you and I do not exist.
Maybe there would be colonies in the New World set up by the Tsar in this amazing alternate universe, but the nations and bloodlines that formed as a result of Colombus's voyage OBJECTIVELY would not exist. Chuy Mendoza from Oakland objectively does not get born in whatever the fuck California is called when Russia colonizes the New World. Maybe Ivan Ahuaxpitzastzinovitch gets born but Chuy does not exist.
So not a single bad word about Colombus in other words.
>WYPIPO B EVOL!!!!!
Well no because you were 2000 years behind Europeans during Columbus times.
I doubt you would figure out a steam engine by the 26th century
I like to point out to all of these whiners that if Columbus never came to America, none of them would exist today.
he didn't exist.
Exactly. People who hate him are just low IQ revisioniat monkeys with inferiority complex posting facebook memes.
The irony of slack jawed mongrels who will call me a dumb nazi for poiting out their objective inferiority.
Aztecs simply never bothered with naval endeavors, and if they landed in China, they would have been slaughtered. The Europeans had ocean worthy vessels for hundreds of years, and the Norse already found Newfoundland in the goddamn 10th century. You're acting as if Columbus would be the only possible explorer that would be well funded by a Royal family, with a plan little more than "lol sail west". He wasn't the first person to have that idea, nor would he have been the last.
Youre literally arguing for no reason and you seem pretty stupid
>so emotionally fragile that he equates the historical fact that Colombus was a huge dick even for his time as an attack on all white people
Well, I'm rubber. And you're glue.
Why are people so butthurt about this guy all of a sudden?
The Indio fears the Latin warrior
Columbus was a meanie poopohead. Fact!
Prove it you low iq inbred monkey.
From what I understand, he was a horrible man and the atrocities he committed are undeniable and inexcusable.
However, I fail to see how him bringing western ideas, technology, rule of law and civility to the continent was a bad thing.
Reminder that Columbus was criticized for his brutality BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES. This isn't just a matter of imposing modern values on historical figures.
Unironically because they saw a comic by The Oatmeal about him.
Pro-tip, it's the same people who shit on Edison and never stop sucking Tesla's dick.
>The Europeans had ocean worthy vessels for hundreds of years,
So did the Chinese, and yet no 15th century Chinese colonies in Africa.
>ou're acting as if Columbus would be the only possible explorer that would be well funded by a Royal family, with a plan little more than "lol sail west"
Why wouldn't he be?
What reason do any of the kings of Europe have to dump money into sailing expeditions to nowhere? I mean for fuck's sake they all turned down Colombus originally but we're supposed to believe they're inevitably going to approve someone else to do what Colombus did?
>BY HIS CONTEMPORARIES
Be specific.
Do you believe everything you are told by anti white revisionists?
Do you watch a tv show and think that black Romans invaded Britain?
oh you literally wanted him badmouthing columbus? cus I don't see how that somehow negates the existence of his "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies", his diaries accounting the first contact w/ indiegenous people, his second and fourth voyage w/ Columbus (he started taking back slaves enmass and doing all the really shitty killings and rapings by his second voyage, which are documented), or his other work "Las Casas on Columbus: The Third Voyage". He also goes over figures of how many people lived in the carribbean isles, and although wrong (as numbers tend to be, historically), it is pretty alarming to see an island go from thousands and thousands of inhabitants to < a few thousand over the course of the first few voyages, or how he witnessed indigenous women kill their children because it was, in their eyes, a much more merciful fate than to be left to the Spanish.
the absolute state of Veeky Forums man. feels bad.
Can you actually make a point or are you so devoid of any rational thought that you can't argue without resorting to Alt-right buzzwords and memes?
there are people who legitimately believe criticism and hate of Columbus started in the 21st century.
THE. STATE. OF. Veeky Forums
>Cus
Opinion disgarded. Another anti white negro.
>can't refuse the points of an argument
>has to resort to being a grammar Nazi instead
Back to /pol/ faggot
how does it feel coming into a topic and being beaten by the superior researching skills of a brown autist? B)
plus, I'm not anti-white. I fuck white girls all the time and my last gf wus a qt pale yt goth gf :-^)
15th century people did not have 21st century morals.
Columbus did not do anything exceptionally violent and uncivilized for his time.
He's right, you talk like a nigger. Go back to primary school.
Nobody denies that Indians died.
I want proof that COLOMBUS was responsible and that these events would not have occured if it were not for his presence.
PRAISE KEK!
YOU SURE SHOWED HIM BASED MAGAPEDE
>thousands and thousands of inhabitants to < a few thousand
Superior searching skills indeed. You do not even have any numbers.
And how am i suppose to know what "thousands upon thousands" means? 10.000? 50.000?
I'm not even American, fuck off with your trumpfaggotry.
el chiANO
Oh boy, user stop being such a faggot.
Nobody cares that some dork on Veeky Forums hooked up with a fat goth chick at some point.
Hurur liek when da Turks envaded Eyrup der wuz million of million Europeens but den it wuz just few million.
How do i argue against incoherent ramblings with no substance to them?
Is there a bigger display of insecurity than defaulting to I FUCK YOUR GIRLS out of nowhere?
>Muh dick
Notice how predictable these people are?
They make claims with 0 proof and when they get outed for what they are they switch to muh dikk mode.
>/pol/ goes outside
>/pol/ was right, niggers are violent.
So now i wish to know two things:
1.how many people were killed under the orders of Columbus
2.How many people were enslaved under his orders
And no buying slaves does not count as enslavement.
Hes the Steve jobs of exploration hogging all the credit contributing nothing and leaving human misery everywhere he goes. As a meme tier hero hes a natural fit for the alt right.
You're not American but you sure are an idiot ignoring facts and primary sources. If you want to be a deluded political zealot do it in your containment board not here
>15th century Chinese colonies in Africa
And? China was always an insular country, they weren't interested in expansion. Europeans however had a legacy of exploration or far flung military campaigns.
>to dump money into sailing expeditions to nowhere?
The same reason which tickled their curiosity for a long time. Trade with the far east. The silk road had already been dismantled, and the appetite of any growing kingdom isn't easily satisfied. The ocean was no longer a wall but a path undisturbed. Columbus wasn't some brilliant man with vision, but rather a stubborn asshole who managed to talk his way into a handful of ships. I'm really wondering what are the amazing circumstances which would prevent someone else curious about the atlantic ocean.
>inevitably going to approve someone else to do what Colombus did?
It could be royal family, or a wealthy merchant or Nobleman who decided to be bold. This isn't exactly building the Great Wall here.
What facts and primary sources? I simply said that guy types like some nigger from Facebook, which is correct, and your reaction to this was some spergout tantrum about kek and maga, once again proving you're a nigger.
If you want more specifics: Las Casas says that from 1494 to 1508, Hispaniola went from 3mil to ~60,000 specifically from war, slavery, and harsh working conditions in the mines. It's pretty hard to believe that there were 3mil at the time, and a lot of historians say there probably was more like
>wave after wave of epidemic diseases never occured in the America's
Mortality rates of people in the new world are from 90%-98%. If you can't put 2 and 2 togethr you're truly an idiot
>So now i wish to know two things:
1.how many people were killed under the orders of Maozedong
2.How many people were starving under his orders
And no Iron Rice Bowl does not count as starvation.
>Europeans however had a legacy of exploration or far flung military campaigns.
You mean the one started when COLOMBUS SAILED TO THE NEW WORLD?
THAT legacy?
>The same reason which tickled their curiosity for a long time. Trade with the far east.
>Sail around Africa
>tickle resolved
There is literally no reason to assume that a cross-Atlantic voyage would ever be made.
The one's in his post that you disregarded because "he types like a nigger" you dumbfuck. If you can't do your own research because the format it's presented in is too hard for you to comprehend you shouldn't be browsing a history board you retarded faggot
>That is still hundreds of thousands of lives dead directly because Columbus and his men overworked, enslaved, or killed them.
AHHHH
So we've gone from "it's all Colombus's fault!" to "Colombus and his men"! Why it's almost as if Colombus is just a proxy for European exploration of the New World in general and this whole movement is driven by anti-whites who want the benefits that come with living under White cultural traditions but none of the heavy shit that comes along with those traditions....
I don't care about your autistic debate about Columbus. This is my first post in the thread:
You attacked Columbus but now you blame diseases and other things that had nothing to do with him?See you are just a shitty revisionist. You know fully that most deaths come from diseases and that Columbus himself had nothing to do with colonization.
But you wish to blame whitey because you are a fat pathetic darkie who gets rejected by white girls.
>THAT legacy?
No, you spaz.
en.wikipedia.org
There's also evidence to suggest of a Roman colony in China.
>>Sail around Africa
>tickle resolved
If it was that simple, then why did they bother with Columbus in the first place? You're so convinced that because he was the first person to do it (which he wasn't), he was the only person who could ever do it. He's not some Alan Turing that revolutionized his field forever. He ended up on a handful of islands, a country which he wasn't even aiming for in the first place. Cortez was the real genius.
butthurt communist detected
Is that what this is about?
You're mad that all your communist heroes righfully get tied to the policies they enacted to enforce their ideology so you're trying to blame Colombus for slavery and Indians having weak immune systems, as if he were a literally worshipped dictator like Mao and not just the regional manager appointed by the Spanish Crown?
>implying there's only one person calling out your faggotry
>implying 2 people can't have differing opinions
Stop trying to play gotcha and come up with an actual argument that doesn't resort to spamming Alt-right buzzwords like Anti-white and niggers /pol/tard
Columbus and his couple dozen crew men enslaved and overworked 100.000's of people?
You are mentally deranged.
>leaders are culpable for their policies when their people I don't like but are not culpable for people I do like
Your argument is devoid of any merit whatsoever
Back 2 your containment board faggot
I made a clear argument but you chose to ignore it because you are a coward.
You blame a man for something he had nothing to do with.
>Norse colonies
>leaving a fucking legacy
gtfo memer
>If it was that simple, then why did they bother with Columbus in the first place?
THEY ALMOST DIDN'T DUMBASS. THE SPANISH CROWN TURNED HIM DOWN AND HE WAS LITERALLY LEAVING MADRID ON A MULE WHEN THE KING ON A WHIM CHANGED HIS MIND AND CALLE DHIM BACK.
leftist faggot
first disease outbreak that happened in the Indies, which was smallpox, happened in 1516, which is 8 years after Las Casaa did his tally lol.
literally just read any of the first hand sources given, yt. I'm embarassed on your behalf, my dude.
Fuck off pol, italians are black africans youre literally wewuzzing right now
See the thing is though, you have yet to prove that any of the stuff you complain about are Colombus' policies and not just policies that would be enacted regardless of whether or not he was there.
It's pretty difficult to claim that Chinese peasants would go on a sparrow killing spree without direct orders from Mao.
It's not very difficult to claim that medieval men-at-arms would go into the country side and start murdering and raping peasants without being ordered to do so by Colombus.
Do you see the difference yet my communist friend?
Of course you don't, if you were capable of seeing reason you wouldn't be a communist in 2017....
Why are demonizing a great explorer? He explored America and brought civilization to the savages. Glory to Christ!
No you don't you shift goalposts to fit your own preconceived narrative and you know nothing of the conquest of the America's or Colombus as a individual at all. You ignore facts because facts are "Anti-white" and you're so emotionally fragile that the historical record threatens your self esteem because your self image is attached to your "whiteness" and anything Anti-white" is Anti-you. If you want to actually learn history, you should crack open a book sometime, instead of trying to shill your autistic meme of an ideology conceived by a couple autists on an anime image board. Read a book nigger
but you ARE anti-white user.
There's literally no reason to complain about Christopher Colombus in 2017 if you're not.
>b-but he KILLED people!
and the cannibalistic Carib indians we're supposed to feel bad for did what exactly?
Anti-Colombus = Anti-Colonialism = Anti-Western = Anti-White
Again you are blaming a man for diseases? Something that he had no power over and could never predicted it.
I could and i will read his recorded journals but i doubt that he described murdering 1.000.000 people with a crew of 1200 colonizers
>gtfo memer
Europeans made it to America. On ships far less advanced than what was available in the 15th century. All it took was one man with drive.
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Doesn't answer the question. I'm confident that there would have been an alternate Columbus, in that there was wealth and enterprising minds in Europe. You have these wonderful vessels, advanced forms of navigation, someone was going to put them to use.
I am yet to hear any facts from any of you.
You keep telling me to "educate myself" and "look at the facts" while not knowing any facts yourselves.
>a white man did something, so it is above criticism
From Columbus' son Ferdinand
"In the Cibao, where the gold mines were, every person of fourteen years of age or upward was to pay a large hawk's bell of gold dust; all others were each to pay twenty-five pounds of cotton. Whenever an Indian delivered his tribute, he was to receive a brass or copper token which he must wear about his neck as proof that he had made his payment; any indian found without such a token was to be punished."
DID WHAT. NONE OF YOU ARE WILLING TO SAY WHAT HE DID.
The only person reeeeing here is you. You have no evidence to support your belief other than your gut feelings of European exceptionalism
Europeans may have a history of exceptional achievement but I refuse to ascribe inevitability to their deeds as it takes away from what they did and encourages the flawed belief that the European people are destined to prosperity and actual individual effort is not required because someone else will do it eventually.
That's nigger thinking.
Trying to sail to India to establish trade? Which he didn't do? Then establishing a colony which he fucked up by being a cruel fuck? There's literally nothing which I couldn't see someone else doing, and doing it better.
"And Spaniards have behaved in no other way during the past forty years, down to the present time, for they are still acting like ravening beasts, killing, terrorizing, afflicting, torturing, and destroying the native peoples, doing all this with the strangest and most varied new methods of cruelty, never seen or heard of before, and to such a degree that this Island of Hispaniola once so populous (having a population that I estimated to be more than three million), has now a population of barely two hundred persons.
Bartoleme de Las Casas
While he doesn't mention Columbus by name, Columbus was the governor of Hispaniola so it stands to reason he was complicit in this.
What's so bad about that?
>gut feelings of European exceptionalism
Yes, the historical facts I posted are just "gut feelings."
>actual individual effort is not required
> the European people are destined to prosperity
That's not my argument at all. I'm only basing on the fact that europe had a previous invested interest in naval exploration. Had Japan or India discovered Australia for example, then I'd expect some similar minds in later generations to go further. The Romans established themselves as far as their legions could pacify a region, and then in the 15th century, crossing the ocean wasn't impossible, but just waiting to happen. It's not European exceptionalism that's argued, but rather Columbus exceptionalism. He wasn't that smart, nor did he ride a wave of exceptionally luck. I really fail to see how someone else sailing west is such a controversial idea.
>There's literally nothing which I couldn't see someone else doing, and doing it better.
So in other words you don't actually have a problem with Colombus because of the things he did, you're just a faggot looking for something to complain about who would continue to complain regardless of whether or not Colombus existed.
That was a cover, he was promised ownership of new lands that he discovered, but they didn't expect him to find the fucking New World
They had to jail that fucker so they could gobble it up as fast as possible
>I'm only basing on the fact that europe had a previous invested interest in naval exploration.
Which is utterly meaningless and has no cultural connection to the later cultures of historical Europe.
>China expanded as far by land as it could.
>China sent out ocean going ships to explore the world
>therefore Chinese colonization of the New World was inevitable
OH WAIT THAT NEVER HAPPENED.
>b-but the Chinese turned inward
and you have evidence beyond your gut to prove that the same could not have happened in Europe, that Europe would not have been content to set up colonies along the African coast in order to circumnavigate the continent to reach Asia?
> don't actually have a problem with Colombus because of the things he did
No, other anons in this thread have established how much of a monster he was. The fact he's overrated as all hell is where my disagreement stands. This is Veeky Forums, we're allowed to debate historical figures. It's equally hilarious to me people are getting so butthurt over defending him. I promise you, you'd hate the prick too if you had to work with him.
Like I said, you're just a contrarian faggot.
Didn't Magellan want to do the same but was blocked by the Portuguese king?
>Which is utterly meaningless
Is it? The first man to make a fire would be the only man to do so? The Greeks, the Romans, the Norse, the Venetians, all of them expanded as far as they could. So another Italian comes along and wants to go in the other direction which hadn't been touched before in a long time? That's supposed to be some outrageously novel idea?
>OH WAIT THAT NEVER HAPPENED.
Because they Chinese were busy maintaining what was the largest country in the world for centuries. They had centuries of civil war and suppressing independent innovation. China wasn't in want of new pastures, a relatively small but powerful state like Spain with opposing powers just above them on the mainland would.
> have evidence beyond your gut to prove that the same could not have happened in Europe
Because it already happened before, as I've already established. The idea of adventure, new trade routes, drawing new maps, none of that was dependent on Columbus. It's not uprising at all that the new types of ships being made at the time wouldn't be stuck wallowing in the Mediterranean. The machine made by the Wright brothers wouldn't have been reduced to just gliding around hills.