Was the late Bronze Age so epic as the legends following its collapse depict it?

In some aspects the scope of the epics is exaggerated, speaking of duration of wars and the volume of armies, however they do preserve information about the equipment deployed on the field and some cultural practices.

The characters in the stories likely did not exist as historical individuals but were instead a composite of multiple legends of war.

Read A New History of the Iliad if you are interested in the comparison of oral tradition to current historical knowledge

>anyone living at anatolia at any point in history
>nordic
WE

Never heard of Indo-European Anatolians and Galatians, brainlet?

They were Indo-European Nordids, speaking a language from an extinct Anatolian branch.

>trojans
>nord
o im laffin

They were Indo-Europeans, therefore Nordid.

The Trojans were the ancestors of today's Turks minus the ~15% Central Asian mixture they incurred more recently. They are around 85-90% genetically identical to the Ancient Anatolian populations that have always been there.

They were not Nordic, the bronze age Anatolia sample cluster with modern levantines and in their art Hittites were depicted as brown haired and tanned

They are Indo-Europeans. Do they look like nords to you, you fucking retard?

Nordics don't fight against niggers, they just spread their ass cheeks for them.

Indo-European means anyone who speaks an Indo-European language; it is not tied to a Nordic phenotype. Swarthy Greeks and Sicilians are also Indo-Europeans

>IE-speakers
>Celts
>Nordic

Originally they were, maybe after some time they sadly racemixed like original Iranian and Indo-Aryan people.
They are not real Nordid Indo-Europeans, they are m*dshit cucks speaking in a language of their former masters.
Shitskin propaganda, if you have seen a true Nordid man, you would shit yourself, peasant.
It doesn't change the fact that the original Aryan Indo-Europeans were Nordid.
>Swarthy Greeks and Sicilians are also Indo-Europeans
They are only indo-europeanized pelasgian cucks speaking in a language of the Nordic race.
Wtf is this bullshit, Celts are IE speakers and R1b y-DNA Nordics.

These god damn nordicucks are getting uppity again

You've never been to Scandinavia then

I've been many times. What's your point?

Then you would know how cucked they get by niggers over there.

That's because of their (((government))), which is secretely ruled by (((Armenoids))), to destroy the great Nordic man. But our Germanic brothers will wake up within decades and push them out.

>They are only indo-europeanized pelasgian cucks speaking in a language of the Nordic race.
Even if that is true, the Classic-era Greeks (the ones that accomplished the most) were certainly no less swarthy than modern Greeks. What does that say about nord superiority?

>Even if that is true, the Classic-era Greeks (the ones that accomplished the most) were certainly no less swarthy than modern Greeks. What does that say about nord superiority?
That they were minor group which ruled over a lot of unrelated racially to them people.

Do you think greeks were the only ones to come up with all that first?

There are evidences other civ such as sumerians, babylonians, canaanites and assyriands did first what greeks did later

They're cucked enough to vote for such a government.

>They're cucked enough to vote for such a government.
No. They are just brainwashed, but because of their noble heritage, I'm sure that they will wake up. The NS movement there is growing, soon to be big enough to take power, and save the Aryan race in Scandinavia.

Mycenean DNA was studied and they turned up to be Mediterraneans clustering with Sicilians. I thought we went over this months ago, it was already obvious enough from their art but now science has confirmed it

Why is this retard still allowed to post?

What is the point of that movie?

Of two cherrypicked individuals, who were Pelasgians who adopted Hellenic culture.

>That they were minor group which ruled over a lot of unrelated racially to them people.
Whats your evidence for this? And what do you make of the study that just came out recently that showed relative continuity across time and between high/low status individuals?

>nature.com/nature/journal/v548/n7666/full/nature23310.html

>Ancestrally. both Mycenaeans and Minoans were basically Mediterranean, well outside the variation of most Europeans and Near Easterners and >75% from early European-Anatolian farmers.

>Phenotypically, they were dark-haired/eyed

>They weren't pure Mediterraneans, but also partly "West_Asian". Bronze Age people from S.W. Anatolia were even more "West_Asian".

>Mycenaeans also had some "Ancient North Eurasian" ancestry, which may have come from either the north or east of Greece.

>Two Minoans and a Mycenaean were haplogroup J2, one Minoan was G.

>One high-status Mycenaean female from Messenia was not different from the other three Mycenaeans.

No, all corpses analyzed were

It was 19 individuals

What do you not understand in "two cherrypicked individuals, who were hellenized pelasgians"?

You have no proof they were cherrypicked.

Why you are mad?

Babylonians did geometry in 1700 BC and greeks did it later

Canasnite city state had a republic and democracy and greeks did that later

And most likely all Hellenized Pelasgians. No one of them was R1a or R1b, so it's obvious no one of them was Nordic.

Who did the study? Probably mediterreneans themselves...

And it's obvious no one of them was Nordic, because no one of them was Indo-European...

The Nordic race and the Greek language entered Greece with IE expansion.

>The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century.

> We have assembled genome-wide data from 19 ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia.

>Here we show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three-quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1, 2, and most of the remainder from ancient populations related to those of the Caucasus3 and Iran4, 5.

>However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6, 7, 8, introduced via a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1, 6, 9 or Armenia4, 9.

>Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

Because I and a million other people have already explained why Greeks did those things first

No one is arguing Greeks did geometry first, we are stating they formalized it first, they were the first people known to have come up with the diea of axioms and of mathematical proof

The fact that you don't get such a basic concept is mind blowing, it underlies your utter unfamiliarity with mathematics and philosophy (other than with history of course)

Myceneans were Greeks, retard

Do you have proof they were cherrypicked? Thought so. Are you from Texas?

So they were only minorly admixed with Nordids. Post after they will find out R1a or R1b prehistoric greek and find out his pigmentation.

It's obvious that some of nobility were pelasgian cucks who adopted foreign language. You are not making a point. I'm saying there were Indo-European Nordids in Greece, and you are "proving me wrong" by posting results of non-Indo-Eruopeans.

Cringe

>Myceneans were Greeks, retard
No R1 y-DNA found = no proof for that.
>t. pic rel

Their language was literally Greek, god, you're retarded

Greek was a language of Indo-European invaders. After they will find out R1a or R1b Mycceneans, we will argue whether there were Nordid race at the time or not.

>Greeks did those things first
But they didnt first, you had sources they did it but you don't have source other civs did it first,>people known to have come up with the diea of axioms and of mathematical proof
But they didnt, i know what you people do , as you call yourselves europeans, you take pride in greeks achievements so you get defensive when someone point out that greeks didnt do something first

Fertile crescent had civ from thousands of years and you think they were just fucking around

Archaeologiss have found that a canaanite city had a republic and some form of democracy and even said thay greeks based their democracy on them, sumerians also had democracy, babylonians did geometry, etc.

Deal with it

>So they were only minorly admixed with Nordids
Exactly this. Mycenians are essentially Minoan-like ancestry + 15% Steppe ancestry. And this input could have been from a Yamnaya-like population (dark-haired, dark-eyed, slightly tan). In any case, this ancestral element (whatever it looked like) was clearly thoroughly absorbed by the Classical era.

>Exactly this. Mycenians are essentially Minoan-like ancestry + 15% Steppe ancestry.
Thanks for proving my point that the Nordid men were able to subjagate big portion of people while being a small minority!

btw. yamnaya were not true PIE urheimat. The Aryans were definitely light-pigmented, because all of their non-admixed descendants (Andronovo, Corded Ware, Unetice) were light pigmented.

>Thanks for proving my point that the Nordid men were able to subjagate big portion of people while being a small minority!
But that is extremely speculative on your part. It could have also been migration and gradual assimilation. There was clearly a developed culture present by the time they arrived if Crete is anything to go by. And like I said, the most important Greeks that laid the foundation for the West, were clearly swarthy shitskins by your standards.

>But they didnt first, you had sources they did it but you don't have source other civs did it first

You're too stupid do understand what axioms are, or what a mathematical proof is, other civilizations didn't have those, they didn't demonstrate their theorems, they just came up with some of them, but they never demonstrated them, not even once.

>Fertile crescent had civ from thousands of years and you think they were just fucking around

They didn't have the concept of mathematical proof, or philosophy in the strict sense, or logic, which is what I'm arguing about, take your superiority complex and race paranoia out of this, you insecure retard.

Anybody with middleschool knowledge of mathematics or some basic knowledge of the history of philosophy should understand what I'm talking about, I'm afraid you Dominicians only memorize things like apes if you can't even understand the difference between knowing Pithagora's theorem (for example) and knowing its demonstration too, it's not the same thing, the Greeks knew how to demonstrate it, the Babylonians, the Egyptians or the Chinese did not.

>babylonians did geometry, etc.

Literally a broken record, I have already told you that was not what I was arguing about, learn to read, and if you still don't understand after reading my post study mathematics or buy a textbook on the history of philosophical thought

Fuck off you can't be serious

>Mycenaeans also had some "Ancient North Eurasian" ancestry

Confirmed PIE link.

>And like I said, the most important Greeks that laid the foundation for the West, were clearly swarthy shitskins by your standards.
They would not be even considered Western or European without the Nordic men influencing their culture and giving them his noble Indo-European language.
Proto-Indo-Europeans were Nordids, at least when they started their expansion.

>Proto-Indo-Europeans were Nordids, at least when they started their expansion.
That's a bold assertion, care to give some evidence to back it up?

>Proto-Indo-Europeans were Nordids, at least when they started their expansion.
idiot, you still don't know what Nordic means and you're literally repeating late 19th century dogma

Just because PIE had lighter skin than most if not all contemporary European groups doesn't make them Nordic. Blue eyes come from WHG ffs, features you describe as Nordic came about after the first expansion.

>btw. yamnaya were not true PIE urheimat.
Ok so that means that if the steppe input that they have is due to a yamnaya-like population, then they were not influenced by pure nordics at all.

>That's a bold assertion, care to give some evidence to back it up?
All their descendants were predominantly light pimented: Corded Wareans, Andronovians, Unetice/Hallstatt Proto-Celts. So they were obviously light-pigmented. It's a reconstruction based on all their early descendants' looks...

>Ok so that means that if the steppe input that they have is due to a yamnaya-like population, then they were not influenced by pure nordics at all.
Yamnaya were Indo-Europeans, or Indo-European related, but they were not PURE PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN URHEIMAT!

They had irrelevant branches of R1b, and no R1a at all.

yes so greeks were never subjugated by nords or pure indo-euros. just indo-european-related peoples that had already lost most of their nord features

>yes so greeks were never subjugated by nords or pure indo-euros. just indo-european-related peoples that had already lost most of their nord features
No, they were subjagated by Nords, thousands of years after Yamna changed to Catacomb btw (possibly Nordicized?).

Why do you think that having similiar admixture to Yamna people means their ancestors were from Yamna? Their ancestors were just Nordid cousins of them.

That doesn't make them Nordic though. Especially if they're descendents were fucking Celts. The prerequisits for Nordic isn't just light skin.

Celts were so called "Ketlic Nordids", so basically the only diffrence between then and Nordids Proper were red hair instead of blond. It's also not impossible that red hair was developed by Celts or Proto-Italo-Celto-Tocharians at least.

>irrelevant branches of R1b
lol, did you mean to say their paternal dna was almost universally R1b?

Yamna were a syncretic culture, made up of CHG with somewhat darker skin and an EHG/ANE combine from whom they got their lighter skin and whose pastoralism later influenced their descendants ability to digest lactose.

>Yamnaya were Indo-Europeans
you're an idiot, they represent the oldest surviving evidence. That means they're our best glimpse of PIE, not IE.

>not PURE PROTO-INDO-EUROPEAN URHEIMAT

Do you have another location that might be a better candidate? Please, do tell.

It kind of doesn't have a central point, or well stated point anyhow. the closest point is leave Afghanistan

>lol, did you mean to say their paternal dna was almost universally R1b?
Irrelevant branches like Z2103.
>Yamna were a syncretic culture, made up of CHG with somewhat darker skin and an EHG/ANE combine from whom they got their lighter skin and whose pastoralism later influenced their descendants ability to digest lactose.
Yes, and the "darker skin" part is the reason why I'm certain they were not PIE urheimat.
>you're an idiot, they represent the oldest surviving evidence.
Khvalynsk and Samara are older, and they've got R1a and R1b too.
>Do you have another location that might be a better candidate? Please, do tell.
Khvalynsk was both R1a and R1b, so it's a better guess than yamna gypsies.
Also Dniepr-Don, a West Ukrainian culture, where we have found R1a samples, COMAPTIBLE WITH THE R1A MUTATION FOUND IN ANDRONOVO AND CORDED WARE!

Also, if you think that PIE were dark-skinned subhumans, then explain why all Andronovians and Tashtyk cultures were overwhelmingly blonde or brown (so mixed blonde) haired and blue or green eyed? They were NOT ADMIXED WITH ENF, NOR WITH WHG.

Pic rel: Nordic Scythian mummy from East Siberia.

>endless hair splitting shit posting about fucking eye color and fucking DNA
So how about that Bronze Age collapse eh?

To us, it wouldn't seem epic because our sense of scale and size has been enormously altered by the knowledge of a universe and its mechanics.

But to people for whom a city of 10,000 was huge the effect, of massive migrating armies looting and pillaging their way to stability, was probably huge. Your ancestry probably has at least one or two Sea People chieftain rape dudes.

>other civilizations didn't have those, they didn't demonstrate their theorems, they just came up with some of them, but they never demonstrated them, not even once.
What is your source?
You are too stupid and arrogant, you dont take into account that those lands saw more destruction than greece
>the Greeks knew how to demonstrate it, the Babylonians, the Egyptians or the Chinese did not.
But how can you believe that?
You are very ignorant, greeks went to schools in egypt, tyre and babylon to learn many things then they brought that knowledge to athens
>They didn't have the concept of mathematical proof, or philosophy in the strict sense, or logic,
Again you dont have any proof they didnt nor they did, so you cant just say they didnt, ignorant retard>Literally a broken record
Lol so that means they didnt have geometry, see you just want to feel good about ANCIENT greeks achievement

Fuck off, deal with it, they werent the first

Sumerians, Egyptians and semitics people werent retards that just sat around playing with sticks, babylonian was know to be a city of learning and knowledge

chariots and the composite bow, bitches.

>he doesn't persist lactase or horse

Posted like a true retard

>What is your source?

Any historian ever, name one civilization to demonstrate a theorem before the Greeks, I'm waiting, and post evidence

>But how can you believe that?

I know that, it's not about believing, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

There is no evidence they did.

>greeks went to schools in egypt, tyre and babylon

None of those cultures ever demonstrated their theoremes, fact until proven wrong.

> you dont take into account that those lands saw more destruction than greece

very disputable, not only that, but even fi that were true, there is still no evidence they demonstrated any theorem, the first one to demonstrate a geometrical theorem was Thales.

>Lol so that means they didnt have geometry

?

Learn to read, you autist.

>, see you just want to feel good about ANCIENT greeks achievement

?

Literally your paranoia about having brown skin, just fuck off, you have not provided one argument yet, show me one proof any civilization prior to the Greeks demonstrated theoremes, I'm waiting, or just shut the fuck up and admit you are wrong.

>Sumerians, Egyptians and semitics people werent retards

No, but you are.

insecure butthurt faggot detected. Of course many ancient people pre-greek made advances but the classical-era greek had much more output per capita. besides, its their culture that would be spread through Alexander's conquessts and the subsequent expansion of the Roman Empire and worldwide globalization of later Europeans. Therefore, the greeks are the most relevant predecessors like it or not. its just how history played out

>Ywn see a Hittite army fight off the Romans.
Tarhunt, the Celestial One, will never receive the worship he deserves.

He's wrong, but not just because of that

The Greeks were the first to come up with geometrical axioms, the first one to formalize predicate logic and sylogism

These are facts, but being an ignorant third worldler he literally lacks the education to understand this

Ancient Hellenes, and many Latins, were actually Anglos. Hence the only acceptable races in the modern world are Anglos and Han Chinese.

Even the ancient chinese were anglos.

>classical-era greek had much more output per capita
They werent
>greeks are the most relevant predecessors like it or not. its just how history played out
That is for you, "western" retards
You just got BTFO and your posts proof that
>Greeks were the first to come up with geometrical axioms, the first one to formalize predicate logic and sylogism
>These are facts, but being an ignorant third worldler he literally lacks the education to understand this
They werent, deal with it

I wonder what race guys

Are you slavic/ germanic?

>That is for you, "western" retards
The entire rest of the world has been subjugated by the West. What is relevant to the West is relevant to everyone now. I am not saying its good or bad. It simply is. I'm nonwhite btw

>What is relevant to the West is relevant to everyone now.
Nope, the world doesnt revolve around you and you are white

The (Anatolian) Galatians were descendants of Alpine Celts. They were more-or-less culturally still Celtics, but genetic mutts by the time they were harassing their neighbours in Anatolia anyhow. Regardless, not Nordics.

I'm waiting for any evidence of non greek civilizations coming up with demonstrations of mathematical theorems

I am half Nordic half Meditteranean, and you are fucking laughable by both standards.

Well we can start looking at babbylonia, if they had some geometry then we can say they had that too

>if they had some geometry then we can say they had that too

No, having geometry and having formalized it is a different things, Babylonians sued geometry but they never sat and came up with axioms, therefore they never demonstrated any of the theorems they used, unlike the Greeks

Fuck all you rambling maniacs cock-gobbling nonsensical racial theories.

Phew, OK.

OP: Yes, probably. Not nearly any-where as near individualistically dramatic as anything related to the Illiad, but you hey, a mass migration across the pyramid that would, in the long term, be repeated in various different ways (obviously in the case of any North African imperialism, from the Visigoths to the French). The difference is we know accounts of two different Ramesses seeing and fighting off (but in my opinion not wiping out, probably just re-directing) wave of migrants, probably a fair amount of what was sometimes war-parties leading families and sometimes just families, groups, or knits.
Similar migrations have happened- the Germanic, the Turkish. These were just weird for crossing seaboards.

Climate change, drought, and cataclysm, such as disease- have long been the real rulers of humanity, not any racial fascist mass-domination by nordic peoples (The Finnish are "Nords" by the very definition of the word, it means nothing, and is nothing), a very simplistic movement composed of literal faggots :-)

the t.: universe is syncretic and all life is assimilation and change, pissed idiots can't seem to grasp that somehow, please leave this neutral place

>pyramid
I meant medditerranean don't judge me (ﾟДﾟ;≡;ﾟДﾟ)

>they never sat and came up with axioms, therefore they never demonstrated any of the theorems they used,
Just because they were destroyed doesnt mean they didnt have it, retard

Babylonia was the city of learning and knowledge

Saying "they might have" isn't really a good argument, though.

I mean, they could have practiced axioms in theory but without ascribing a name to it (or could have, but, like you said, it was destroyed or lost or turned to dust).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_of_Pessimism#Text_and_dating

Sumer and Mesopotamia go back, way back. Greeks were still hicks when these places were unified into empires.

history is cumulative. classical greek thinkers are not due any more respect than their sophistic predecessors in the Near East, and, please, lads, these were guys saying the vagina was an inverted penis and subordinating women to an extreme using *that particular logic*.

>Just because they were destroyed doesnt mean they didnt have it, retard

What a retarded way of thinking, there is no evidence they did, "assuming it" is retarded without any evidence, you're a biased retard with no evidence to back up what you're saying, and you sympathize with Mesopotamians because they were brown like you.

Just fuck off already, I can claim ancient Lebanese had space shuttles but that remains a pure conjecture until any evidence to back it up turns up, and rightly so, this is how historians work.

There is no reason why Mesopotamians "must" have had axioms, there is no evidence at all to say they did anyway

Brad Pitt is a weakling i defy him. The worst actor to choose for this role. They have destroyed the illias. I like the book not the movie.

It was much more epic than you can imagine, but no Cyclops though.

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