Has there been a longer conflict in history than Israel vs Palestine...

not actually what was said - OP asked about Israel vs Palestine, and neither existed until the 20th century.

That's just the form they recently took. Their respective people have been fighting each other for thousands of years.

he literally said they have been fighting for 3000 years so it's obvious he doesn't just mean the 50 year old nations

>im an uneducated nigger!
thanks for the opinion user ill give it over to someone who gives a fuck

you couldnt be more wrong

>puts a flag of israel, a 50 year old state, and palestine, a 50 year old state
>NUH UH HE OBVIOUSLY MEANS THE VARIOUS ETHNIC GROUPS THAT HAVE PRECEDED THEM
so should we have a discussion about why proto-arab cultures fought, then?

ask a stupid fucking question, get a stupid fucking answer

Please explain how he is incorrect, this is quite objectively the whole story of Israel

he failed ancient history so hes wrong

Dude, Israel already existed in 1000BC.

hes right about the israel part but thats about it

>"You're wrong"
>>Can you explain how this person is wrong?
>"he's just wrong"

no more replies for you bud, come back in a couple years

>t. Pastor Bob McDuff of the Alabama Congregation

I think he might be reasoning along the lines of a small population of Jews coming out of Africa (and there were small populations of Jews in African trade cities, just as there were small populations of Christians). But you're right, it's not as if they suddenly upped and moved themselves for fun.

...

>you don't need a degree
>pay me a free education
faggots should get fucked

Is this a bot?

You can't be serious.

>The question of the existence of archeological evidence for the united monarchy is debated in contemporary scholarship. It is generally accepted that a "House of David" existed but many believe that David could have only been the monarch or chieftain of Judah, and that the northern kingdom was a separate development. According to Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, authors of The Bible Unearthed, the idea of a united monarchy is not accurate history but rather "creative expressions of a powerful religious reform movement," possibly "based on certain historical kernels."

5 seconds in google m8, step it up

>are blasphemous retards who argue with educated people still asking for the right answer?

>i got my education from Google
you're a sad excuse for a historian

Yes and? Israel existed, but perhaps their tales did not.

>yfw the jews get fed up of jews jewing them all the time so the jews and expel the jews from isreal

Weren't the Jews originally from Iraq? Abraham was (supposedly) born in Ur.

>blasphemous!!11

no, I just needed an opinion that wasn't my own. You'd never believe me and screech SAUCE if I didn't desu, so there's two authors that say what I want to say, that you can go and challenge with your own research.

>triggered because his argument is wrong
>Y-YEAH WELL YOU'RE USING GOOGLE!
Oh, sorry, I guess I'll just not use this excellent resource library because you think I should have gone to my local library, found the book, taken a footnote to read the same thing, come back and told you the same thing.

So trying to connect those people to modern day Israel is we wuzzing on a whole fucking another level. You're we wuzzing to a fucking entity that's disputed to have ever existed in the first place. It's on-par with a modern-day greek person living outside of Greece trying to claim his heritage relates to the Byzantines. It is preposterous and disconnected from a continuous historiography of any variety.

>hes from reddit
the retards have come leaping from the hills! it must be the year of the fool! bahahahha

Hi, Schlomo

>believing Jewish mythology

LOL

There was no conquest of Canaan. Cities that supposedly were conquered by Joshua didn't even exist until hundreds of years later. The truth is, the original Israelites were native Canaanites who developed monotheism based on the worship of El (IsraEL), a Canaanite God. They then came up with stories about WE WUZ SLAVEZ N SHIET to disconnect themselves from the Canaanite pagans who sacrificed babies and shit. The truth is Jews themselves used to worship those some Gods the Canaanites did they just came up with a myth.

The point being, Jews are indigenous to Judea, but not for the reasons they think they are.

Eretz Israel was just a dream

still it is.

Syria Palæstina was a Roman province between 135 and about 390. It was established by the merge of Roman Syria and Roman Judaea, following the defeat of the Bar Kochba Revolt in 135. Basically to punish the Jews for rebelling Roman rule, Judaea no longer existed. The name Judaea and Israel both predate Palestine as a name for the region (Philistia doesn't count). I feel using Palestine to describe the area is slanted given actual history.

The funny thing about the Palestinian narrative is that Jews originally took "Palestinian" as a mantle for Jews living in British Palestine. IE the Jewish run "Palestine Post" now the "Jerusalem Post". The enemy was always Nationalist Arabs who considered themselves an overall nation fighting the British who wanted to divide them. In fact, post-British Nationalist Pan-Arabism, such as the United Arab Republic and Baathism focused on erasing British segmentation of the Arab world to make a greater Arab nation. The whole concept of Palestinians as a people came out of the failure of Egypt, Jordan and Syria's failure in eliminating Israel. Otherwise, why didn't a Palestinian state arise in the 20 years pre-1967 when Jordan owned the West Bank and Egypt owned Gaza?

It took the creation of Israel and the failure of the Pan-Arabic world to remove the hated Jew for Arabs to embrace the mantle and make it their own. It's a PR trick, playing on Western pity for the people without a home. Yet look at a map for the Middle East and you'll see hundreds of thousands of miles of majority Arab nations- plenty of homes for Arabs. How so many people can not see something so clear is baffling.

T. Nethanyahu

The conflict as we know it has only been around for about 60 years

Lol, and Israel is a made up country colonized by europeans larping as kikes. The ironic thing is that palestinians are the actual descendants of the ancient hebrews.

Probably not, the other Arab countries don't really care that much anymore. Time is on Israel's side. Ask yourself what the reaction would be if a group of American Indians showed up and demanded half of the state of Virginia. Even if there were some credible historical claim it would have been extinguished by the passage of time. History is replete with example of people losing their land and never getting it back.

>stir arab nationalism to weaken the ottoman empire
>said nationalist arabs immediately turn on you after the ottomans are gone
Are the anglos incapable of looking more than yards ahead?

Neither Palestinians nor Israelis existed until the 20th century

Ashkenazi Jews were always Yiddish, they didn't start larping as Hebrew didn't until recently

At this point the only solution is a federation of Israel and Palestine with federal control of issues like water and borders, a two state solution is literally impossible.

>Neither Palestinians nor Israelis existed until the 20th century
well there was kind of an Israel 20 centuries ago. And I do think it is fair to say there is some cultural and group identity between the two thousand year old Israel and modern day Israel.

Philista always existed, they didn't choose to be jews anymore

> Jew brainwashed western media KEK

good post

>It's on-par with a modern-day greek person living outside of Greece trying to claim his heritage relates to the Byzantines
If your heritage is Greek then you probably have heritage going back to the Byzantines, I don't see the problem here.

Anyway, you are trying to invalidate Jewish indigenous claims based on the validity of their mythology, which isn't really a proper way of refuting indigenous claims because even if Jewish mythology is wrong, the fact that Jews still lived there is well-documented by both Biblical and non-Biblical sources, and these sources date back to at least the Persian Empire, probably earlier.

This
> 2017
> thinking that Arabs are the same as the sea people

Arabs brainwashed by propaganda make me kek

Israel was founded in 1948
Mandate for Palestine was founded in 1920
No.

Mandate of Palestine =/= State of Palestine.

The State of Israel was founded in 1948.
The State of Palestine was founded in 1988.

"State of Palestine"
Citation needed.

>And I do think it is fair to say there is some cultural and group identity between the two thousand year old Israel and modern day Israel.
This is disingenuous and you know it.

You can't claim a Holy Land and then blaspheme against G-d regularly by having Sodomite parades throughout Tel Aviv.

Israel never existed before 1947.

Why should anyone recognize the State of Israel?

That has to be the dumbest thing ever.
Your a nobody, you dont need to recognize anything.

Every government on the planet has recognized Israel as a country

>These shitters have been fighting for more than 3000 years.

Nope. It's Jews who remained and converted versus Jews who returned. Every Palestinian has as many ancestors who were Judean as every Jew.

>Every government on the planet has recognized Israel as a country

BUT WHY?

If my post was the dumbest thing ever you can explain why easily.

Persia vs Hellenized world is about as long but with much richer history

>The whole concept of Palestinians as a people came out of the failure of Egypt, Jordan and Syria's failure in eliminating Israel.
This is completely wrong. Palestinian national identity really emerged in the midst of the First World War. Discontent with Ottoman rule was a huge factor in the development of Palestinian identity, which emerged much earlier than you seem to think.
>It's a PR trick, playing on Western pity for the people without a home.
So essentially what the Zionists did to gain support for a national home of the Jewish people?
> Yet look at a map for the Middle East and you'll see hundreds of thousands of miles of majority Arab nations- plenty of homes for Arabs.
Not all Arabs are Palestinians (an identity which already existed at the time of the creation of the State of Israel). There are huge differences between Arabs from language to lifestyle and culture. Just because I speak English and have an Anglo background doesn't mean I'll be happy to live in any country of the Anglosphere.

>This is completely wrong. Palestinian national identity really emerged in the midst of the First World War.
Wrong. They had a Pan-Arab identity, but not a Palestinian identity. There was no British Mandate of Palestine until 1920, and at that time "Palestinian" was mainly used by Palestinian Jews, the Arabs wanted a united Arab state and wanted to stop being divided by Europeans.
>Not all Arabs are Palestinians (an identity which already existed at the time of the creation of the State of Israel).
Again, not true. Palestinian meant both the Jews and Arabs at that point, "Palestinian" as defined by the PLO in the 1964 Charter ("Arab nationals who resided in Palestine prior to 1947") was invented when the PLO was founded.
>There are huge differences between Arabs from language to lifestyle and culture.
"Palestinian," just like Israeli or Lebanese, are colonial identities. Some Anglo drawing a line 100 years ago decided who today considers themselves Palestinian. The "Palestinians" in the Galilee have much more in common with Southern Lebanese Arabs then Arabs in the Negev or even in the Judean Mountains. Both linguistically, culturally, etc. Some British dude just decided they are Palestinians, and today they identify as such. Then you have the Druze who identify as Israelis but could be considered Palestinians.

>The whole concept of Palestinians as a people came out of the failure of Egypt, Jordan and Syria's failure in eliminating Israel.

Partly. But more from the existing identity of Muslims and Christians in the area, and the experience of fifty years of occupation and peaceful ethnic cleansing.

Ethnic cleansing is the term for when you confiscate land from people you are occupying, or when you deny citizenship to people you have annexed, or when you prevent people you have exiled from returning, which are Israels policies regarding the Palestinians. Or you can suggest another term if you think that's too inflammatory.

>a Palestinian identity

How is that important?

Oh you mean like how Jews had a European identity but not an Israeli identity before they founded Israel.

>How is that important?
You just claimed that Palestinian identity existed before 1948. All I was doing was refuting that, and explaining that "Palestinian" was rejected by the Arabs at first who saw that as a tool to divide up Arabs. Jews were the ones who really embraced the term. The Arabs wanted a United Arab States like the USA for Arabs. I never said this means there shouldn't be an independent Palestine, just that the identity was a very recent occurrence.
>Jews had a European identity, but not an Israeli identity before they founded Israel
Okay, this is a straight up lie. The assimilated Jews hated Zionism, the ones who really went to Palestine were the ones who were worried about becoming Germans, Russians, etc. The early Zionists were actually fucking over assimilated Jews by parroting anti-Semitic talking points such as "the Jews aren't loyal to their countries, only other Jews," and saying this is why a Jewish state is necessary. Most Israeli PMs had some terrible things to say about the countries they were born in and the people who lived there. Not to mention, a lot of those Zionists from the Russian Empire you like to call European Jews were from the Caucasus, and were Mizrahi.

>You just claimed that Palestinian identity existed before 1948. All I was doing was refuting that, and explaining that "Palestinian" was rejected by the Arabs at first who saw that as a tool to divide up Arabs. Jews were the ones who really embraced the term. The Arabs wanted a United Arab States like the USA for Arabs. I never said this means there shouldn't be an independent Palestine, just that the identity was a very recent occurrence.

How is it relevant to the claim that Arabs can be kicked out of their land without foul?

Like Palestinians, Jews had a home already. Their European identity was as real as the European identity of anyone who lives in Europe. Irish is not identical to Swiss is not identical to French is not identical to Ashkenazi Jews, all are European.

>Ethnic cleansing is the term for
You should really look up the actual definition.
Ethnic cleansing: the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.
>when you confiscate land from people you are occupying
Not the definition of ethnic cleansing.
>or when you deny citizenship to people you have annexed
Not the definition of ethnic cleansing. Israel has definitely confiscated land, but they don't deny citizenship to any Arab in East Jerusalem or Druze in the Golan who wants it. There has been a huge increase of this in recent years, especially among the youth.
>or when you prevent people you have exiled from returning
Not the definition of ethnic cleansing. Also, saying "you have exiled" is just inaccurate. Other than places like Lydda and Ramle, 90% of the Exodus was caused by fear of getting caught up the fight.

>How is it relevant to the claim that Arabs can be kicked out of their land without foul?
You should re-read this back and forth. I've said time and time again, i'm talking about Palestinian identity and how it was forged in the 60's. Quit straw manning. You are making up claims i've never made then refuting them as if that refutes my argument.
>Like Palestinians, Jews had a home already.
They used to. Syrian Jews used to have a home in Syria, yet there are 75,000 in Brooklyn, 115,000 in Israel, and less than a dozen in Syria. Libyan Jews had a home in Libya since the 3rd century BC, long before the ancestors of the Palestinians arrived in the Levant. There isn't one Jew left in Libya today. Lithuanian Jews used to have a home in Lithuania. Over 95% of them were killed in the Holocaust. Go cry about it. Israel is their home now, it's the only place they have in the world where they aren't a minority. I believe just like Arabs, Jews have a right to have a place for their language and culture to thrive.

>Not the definition of ethnic cleansing.

Oh? When citizens confiscate land from non-citizens, when citizenship is defined by ethnic background, this is never ethnic cleansing?

>Not the definition of ethnic cleansing. Israel has definitely confiscated land, but they don't deny citizenship to any Arab in East Jerusalem or Druze in the Golan who wants it. There has been a huge increase of this in recent years, especially among the youth.

I didn't know that. Any Palestinian living in the occupied territories can get citizenship in Israel upon request? This changes everything. I wonder why they don't.

>Not the definition of ethnic cleansing. Also, saying "you have exiled" is just inaccurate. Other than places like Lydda and Ramle, 90% of the Exodus was caused by fear of getting caught up the fight.

Nobody fled the territory occupied by Israel? Wow more new facts for me. And anyone who was born in Israel can just return as well?

>Ethnic cleansing: the mass expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society.

So the expulsion part applies. Half of all Palestinians now live in diaspora.

I wonder what you might call it if Israel were occupied and half of all Jews were expelled? What if it took seventy years to implement, ethnic cleansing or no?

Is there really anything wrong with expelling people from your country? Why?

>Ashkenazi Jews
>European

pick one Moshe. you are NOT European.

I'm only going by 'have lived in Europe for hundreds of years and whose culture and traditions developed in Europe distinctly from other populations not in Europe'. Obviously they're no more 'European' than anyone whose ancestors migrated there.

>Oh? When citizens confiscate land from non-citizens, when citizenship is defined by ethnic background, this is never ethnic cleansing?
Still doesn't fit the definition. Also, citizenship isn't defined by ethnic background. There are over a million people from Russia in Israel, and a quarter aren't even Jewish and many are straight up Christians who LARPed and snuck in. There are even Evangelical Christians from America who moved into the West Bank and live next to Jewish settlers. Armenia has the same right of return laws, as do many nations.
>I didn't know that. Any Palestinian living in the occupied territories can get citizenship in Israel upon request?
You have no reading comprehension. I said no Arab in East Jerusalem or Druze in the Golan. These are areas Israel has annexed. You claimed that Israel has annexed places and hasn't allowed the citizens to get citizenship. That's a lie, which is you are now backpedalling.
>Nobody fled the territory occupied by Israel? Wow more new facts for me.
They did, for various reasons.
>So the expulsion part applies. Half of all Palestinians now live in diaspora.
They weren't expelled. You can lie all you want about 1948, and focus on Ramle and Lydda and ignore Tiberias and Safed, but all it will do is shine a light on your dishonesty.

>Also, citizenship isn't defined by ethnic background.

So it's just as easy for any random Palestinian born in and living in the West Bank to become a citizen of Israel as a Jewish person from Texas?

>You have no reading comprehension. I said no Arab in East Jerusalem or Druze in the Golan. These are areas Israel has annexed. You claimed that Israel has annexed places and hasn't allowed the citizens to get citizenship. That's a lie, which is you are now backpedalling.

Israel has failed to declare which places it will annex, since all of the occupied territories are still liable to be confiscated, settled, and annexed, it is all annexed.

>They did, for various reasons.

>They weren't expelled. You can lie all you want about 1948, and focus on Ramle and Lydda and ignore Tiberias and Safed, but all it will do is shine a light on your dishonesty.

???

So they fled from Israeli occupation and can't return. This is not ethnic cleansing, since if Israel were now occupied, and Jews fled from it and were prevented from ever returning, that wouldn't be ethnic cleansing. Is this right?

>have lived in Europe for hundreds of years

so have gypsies. they are still indians.

>whose culture and traditions developed in Europe distinctly from other populations not in Europe

not true. jews have a jewish culture, which is not european whatsoever. every tradition you can name of the jews traces outside of europe.

>Obviously they're no more 'European' than anyone whose ancestors migrated there

jews aren't european, just because their last names were stolen from us doesnt change their genetics or their culture which are not european. they brought their middle eastern tribal bullshit to us, which is why there has been such a clash for thousands of years.

>so have gypsies. they are still indians.

They're also European. Less than European Jews though.

>not true. jews have a jewish culture, which is not european whatsoever. every tradition you can name of the jews traces outside of europe.

European Jews are the ones I'm saying are European, the ones who have lived in Europe for centuries, the ones whose customs and traditions are distinct from those of the rest of non-European Judaism, which was the minority of Jews until settlement in Israel and America shifted the balance or definitions around.

>jews aren't european, just because their last names were stolen from us doesnt change their genetics or their culture which are not european. they brought their middle eastern tribal bullshit to us, which is why there has been such a clash for thousands of years.

The European ones are.

>thousands of years

How many really though? The people in Israel now are ALL descended from the original Israelites or Judeans, some of them converted to Christianity or Islam. So this conflict NOW is either inter-Jewish, or new since the Jews in the area converted, which wasn't much more than a thousand years ago.

What makes it any less of a legitimate county than any other?

>So it's just as easy for any random Palestinian born in and living in the West Bank to become a citizen of Israel as a Jewish person from Texas?
Why would a random Palestinian in the West Bank (presumably a citizen of Palestine, considering they have sovereignty in Area A, where most Palestinians there live) want to move to Israel? If Israel had annexed the West Bank, and Israel was rejecting their right to citizenship, you might have a point but you really don't have one.
>Israel has failed to declare which places it will annex, since all of the occupied territories are still liable to be confiscated, settled, and annexed, it is all annexed.
This is not how annexing works. If the PLO didn't want this setup, they shouldn't have signed the Oslo accords. This is why there is an Area A, Area B, and Area C. Parts of Area A will be annexed by Israel in exchange for Arab parts of Israel. Jewish settlements in Area B and C will either be dismantled or some will became "Palestinian Jewish villages" in the same way that we have "Israeli Arab villages."
>So they fled from Israeli occupation and can't return.
They didn't flee from Israeli occupation, they fled a war in which they thought the Arabs would win.
>since if Israel were now occupied, and Jews fled from it and were prevented from ever returning, that wouldn't be ethnic cleansing.
False equivalence for multiple reasons. The first being is that it was a civil war between Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs. They were the same entity at that point. But it also depends on the reason. The reason for fleeing during the Nakba had many different causes. Sometimes, Arab leaders told them to get out of the way, I mean the "West Bank" only exists today because Jordan occupied that part from 1948–1967.

>They're also European. Less than European Jews though.

how? theyve been there just as long.

>European Jews are the ones I'm saying are European, the ones who have lived in Europe for centuries

bullshit. they aren't, look at their culture and their customs.

>the ones whose customs and traditions are distinct from those of the rest of non-European Judaism

not true. there is nothing unique about european jews, they have all the same holidays and celebrate them on the same days that other jews do. just like iranian people celebrate iranian holidays.

> or new since the Jews in the area converted

they didn't convert. jews/hebrews are a race. genetics has proven this. gad saad looks like any european jew i know, and genetically jews are very closely related to samaritans, even more so than samaritans are with palestinians.you know, from the "good samaritan" in the bible? that's pretty damning, these are israelites who were never exiled yet show up closer related to jews than any other group. how can you argue they are just converts if that's the case?

>Why would a random Palestinian in the West Bank (presumably a citizen of Palestine, considering they have sovereignty in Area A, where most Palestinians there live) want to move to Israel? If Israel had annexed the West Bank, and Israel was rejecting their right to citizenship, you might have a point but you really don't have one.

Who knows? They live in a country that will not allow them to have citizenship, they might want it.

>This is not how annexing works. If the PLO didn't want this setup, they shouldn't have signed the Oslo accords. This is why there is an Area A, Area B, and Area C. Parts of Area A will be annexed by Israel in exchange for Arab parts of Israel. Jewish settlements in Area B and C will either be dismantled or some will became "Palestinian Jewish villages" in the same way that we have "Israeli Arab villages."

Oslo is one step better than simply remaining de facto second-class Israeli citizens.

>They didn't flee from Israeli occupation, they fled a war in which they thought the Arabs would win.

So they didn't flee Israel, if you say so. In the same way, if the Arab states invaded, and some Jews fled Israel, they wouldn't be fleeing the Arab occupation, they'd be leaving until Israel won?

Is it Israel that prevents Palestinian war refugees from returning?

>False equivalence for multiple reasons. The first being is that it was a civil war between Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs. They were the same entity at that point. But it also depends on the reason. The reason for fleeing during the Nakba had many different causes. Sometimes, Arab leaders told them to get out of the way, I mean the "West Bank" only exists today because Jordan occupied that part from 1948–1967.

Well, it was also Arab states invading the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs. Israel and the Arab states then annexed Palestine.

>how? theyve been there just as long.

Gypsies definitely under a thousand years, Jews definitely over a thousand years.

>bullshit. they aren't, look at their culture and their customs.

>not true. there is nothing unique about european jews, they have all the same holidays and celebrate them on the same days that other jews do. just like iranian people celebrate iranian holidays.

You are really saying there is no variation in customs among Jewish groups? Come on.

>they didn't convert. jews/hebrews are a race. genetics has proven this. gad saad looks like any european jew i know, and genetically jews are very closely related to samaritans, even more so than samaritans are with palestinians.you know, from the "good samaritan" in the bible? that's pretty damning, these are israelites who were never exiled yet show up closer related to jews than any other group. how can you argue they are just converts if that's the case?

They did convert. Palestinians are the descendants of Jewish converts. Now you are saying Jews have never converted?

What are Samaritans?

>They live in a country that will not allow them to have citizenship
Are you delusional or do you know this little about this conflict? They have citizenship, of the State of Palestine. Look it up or atleast read a book about the conflict.
>Oslo is one step better than simply remaining de facto second-class Israeli citizens.
I agree, so they should negotiate instead of rejecting every offer.
>In the same way, if the Arab states invaded, and some Jews fled Israel, they wouldn't be fleeing the Arab occupation, they'd be leaving until Israel won?
This happened, you would know this if you bothered to study this conflict. Jordan destroyed every Synagogue in the West Bank, expelled every Jew from the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. Also destroyed thousands of Jewish gravestones in the Mount of Olives. Many of the ones expelled were Anti-Zionist Palestinian Jews. The descendants of them who came back were some of the original settlers.
>Well, it was also Arab states invading the Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs.
That was the second half of the war. It was a civil war for the first year before the Pan-Arab invasion.

>Are you delusional or do you know this little about this conflict? They have citizenship, of the State of Palestine. Look it up or atleast read a book about the conflict.

It's just that they're still under Israeli occupation, and Israeli law is the law of the land. They do not get to vote for the government that rules them, the Israeli government rules them.

>I agree, so they should negotiate instead of rejecting every offer.

Should they sign an agreement that says it was okay for Israel to confiscate private land from Palestinians and annex land without offering citizenship to those who lived there?

Maybe Israel should offer peace one time.

>This happened, you would know this if you bothered to study this conflict. Jordan destroyed every Synagogue in the West Bank, expelled every Jew from the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. Also destroyed thousands of Jewish gravestones in the Mount of Olives. Many of the ones expelled were Anti-Zionist Palestinian Jews. The descendants of them who came back were some of the original settlers.

Why is it wrong to do any of that in an occupied territory? Shouldn't the Jews have left to go and live in a Jewish country?

>They did convert. Palestinians are the descendants of Jewish converts.
Not him, but this is a lie. Palestinians trace their roots to Arab clans who immigrated from the 7th to the 14th century and onwards. In the 18th century tons of Egyptians flooded into Palestine which shifted the demographics even more. The definition of a Palestinian is an "Arab national who resided in Palestine prior to 1948," so to say they are indigenous or descendants of Jewish converts is a lie. It's also debunked by the genetic link between Mizrahi Jews and Ashkenazi Jews. This study, done in a Lebanese University in Beirut (Beirut, that hotbed of radical Zionism) shows Ashkenazi Jews clustering with Lebanese Christians, Mizrahi Jews, Lebanese Druze, while Palestinians cluster with Jordanians, Saudis and Bedouins.

Source: journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003316

same for """Israelis""" so this thread is dumb as shit

>It's just that they're still under Israeli occupation, and Israeli law is the law of the land. They do not get to vote for the government that rules them, the Israeli government rules them.
Again, why do you lie? They live under PA law, which is why they'll be killed for selling land to a Jew. That's not Israeli law, it's Palestinian law.
>Should they sign an agreement that says it was okay for Israel to confiscate private land from Palestinians and annex land without offering citizenship to those who lived there?
I guess you can pretend this has ever been offered. Israel has always said they'll give citizenship to the areas they annex and the Arabs. Just not to areas they haven't annexed, which makes perfect sense.
>Why is it wrong to do any of that in an occupied territory? Shouldn't the Jews have left to go and live in a Jewish country?
Showing your true colors I see. I never said it was justified to kick out Palestinian Arabs, while you think it's justified to kick out Palestinian Jews. In your mind, Arabs fleeing villages around Safed at the order of the Arab legion is the same thing as kicking every Jew out of the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. You keep making arguments on the assumption that I think what happened at Ramle was okay, I don't. However, you seem to think what happened in Jerusalem was okay.

>Has there been a longer conflict in history than Israel vs Palestine?
Class antagonism

It is a lie to say that Palestinians have Jewish converts in their lineage? You are wrong. You haven't posted anything that contradicts this.

>Again, why do you lie? They live under PA law, which is why they'll be killed for selling land to a Jew. That's not Israeli law, it's Palestinian law.

This is the law? Do you have a link to where the PA has a death sentence for anyone who does business with Israelis?

>I guess you can pretend this has ever been offered. Israel has always said they'll give citizenship to the areas they annex and the Arabs. Just not to areas they haven't annexed, which makes perfect sense.

Great. So anyone who was living in those areas as of the time they were occupied can get citizenship upon request. Except that they can't even return to Israel in most cases.

All Israel has to do is actually offer automatic citizenship upon request to any Arab who was born in an area now annexed by Israel. Why or why not?

>Showing your true colors I see. I never said it was justified to kick out Palestinian Arabs, while you think it's justified to kick out Palestinian Jews. In your mind, Arabs fleeing villages around Safed at the order of the Arab legion is the same thing as kicking every Jew out of the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. You keep making arguments on the assumption that I think what happened at Ramle was okay, I don't. However, you seem to think what happened in Jerusalem was okay.

Ask me if I think what happened at Ramle was okay.

Should Jews who lived in the Old City be able to return to their homes or their ancestral homes? Why not?

So it's not justified to kick out Palestinians. Israel is in the wrong when they do this. Is Israel wrong to not allow them to return to Israel?

>not true. there is nothing unique about european jews, they have all the same holidays and celebrate them on the same days that other jews do. just like iranian people celebrate iranian holidays.
I am a European Jew here. The difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewry is at times staggering. Our holidays are the same but traditions regarding how to celebrate vary widely. For example: on Hanukkah, Ashkenazi Jews each light an individual menorah while Sephardic Jews light one per household, with some families lighting only a single candle every night. The daily liturgy of prayer has the same structure but has different style and content. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of examples like this, to the extent that when Rabbis such as Joseph Karo (a Sephardic authority expelled from Spain and living in Safed) in the 16th century attempted to codify Jewish law and traditions into a single book, it was insufficient and at times useless for Ashkenazic Jews, requiring Ashkenazic Rabbis to publish commentary on it detailing the differences in practice.

>The difference between Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jewry is at times staggering
You do realize they are both European Jews right? Ashkenazi = Germany, Sephardi = Spain. You also have the Italkim (Italian Jews) who aren't Ashkenazi but still have similar traditions. Also the Romaniotes Jews (Greek Jews) who also are European Jews.

>It is a lie to say that Palestinians have Jewish converts in their lineage? You are wrong.
It is considering the definition of a Palestinian is an "Arab national who resides in Palestine prior to 1948." Find me a single Palestinian clan with origins not in the Arabian Peninsula, Egypt, or Kurdistan. The Husaynis showed up in the 1300s, the oldest Palestinian Arab clan is the Nashashbi and they settled in the 7th century.
>This is the law? Do you have a link to where the PA has a death sentence for anyone who does business with Israelis?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws
>Great. So anyone who was living in those areas as of the time they were occupied can get citizenship upon request.
They weren't in those areas at the time, they fled before the Jews even showed up most of the time.
>Should Jews who lived in the Old City be able to return to their homes or their ancestral homes? Why not?
They did, and today they are considered settlers and condemned by most of the world. Including the same activists who claim a moral (not to mention legal) right for Palestinians to return.
>So it's not justified to kick out Palestinians. Israel is in the wrong when they do this. Is Israel wrong to not allow them to return to Israel?
You can pretend all you want that 750,000 Palestinians were kicked out, it won't make it true.

Sparta and Athens?

Sorry, I made the mistake of assuming people understood that today, for all intents and purposes, Sephardic and Levant Jews are the same considering there have not been Spanish Jews for 500 years due to the Inquisition. They nearly all moved to middle East and northern Africa. Most of my Sephardic friends are from Syria, Morroco, Yemen, Iran, etc... This is a clear enough differentiation from the remainder of Ashkenazic Jews who, while Primarily from Germany as you said, also includes nearly all of Northern, Western and Eastern European countries.
Limiting Ashkenazic and Sephardic to Country borders is oversimplifying the matter. For example, I descend from Czechoslovakia (a village now considered to be in the Ukraine), Romania and Russia, all of which are identical in nearly all Ashkenazic practices (barring minor local traditions). You might find a Jew from Lichtenstein having minor differences in Liturgy due to the culture developed around the scholarly talmudic institutions built there, but other than that they're wholly Ashkenazic.

>Slovenians had - quite happily
That explains all the rebellions from the 9th century onward culminating in a war in 1918/1919 between Austrian para militaries and Slovene para militaries over Carinthia and Styria.

Its especially baffling because the Slovenian nationhood was not denied by the Austrian, in fact the Austrian imperial office in the 19th century designated the white-blue-red tri-color as the national flag of all Slovenes and the duchy of Carniola was the only duchy in the empire allowed to use the same tri-color as its flag while all others used a bi-color.

Yeah there were religious sects that have a traditional lineage from the same religions that were in Roman Judea and called themselves Jews. There religious traditions were kind of similar but still different and evolved over time.

Its hard to find a direct link. It would be like if modern day Indonesians or Pakistanis suddenly started claiming sovereignty over mecca becaause they follow islam.

I think anyone with a brain cell realises that in the 1940's, Ashkenazi's claim to Palestine was dubious as fuck.

However that's not the point, the point is that they are there now and both groups are there. Its not a matter of who's right or wrong, its a matter of finding a way for them to both live together in a cohabitual agreement that respects both their needs and wishes.

Its not impossible, its just there are assholes on both sides who don't want to respect the needs and claims of the other side.

A group of Greek settlers

It was a bad analogy. The truth is I can't actually think of a good analogy; because I've never heard of something so WE WUZ - the notion that someone who has zero ethnic connection to an area claiming it on the basis that their mythology pushed they had a kingdom there once.

Yes, Jews did live there. So did Christians, Muslims and whatever else coexisted with them at the present time. It is no more the 'Kingdom' of the Jews than downtown Vienna pre-1930.

Did Arabs living in Ottoman Syria inside what are currently considered the borders Palestine consider themselves Palestinians?

Denmark vs Sweden, Balkan vs Balkan, Bongs vs Frogs.

Not Palestinians.

There's no evidence that the Kingdom of Jerusalem ever actually existed

Nope, Palestine was a province that was populated by a variety of peoples of different ethnic groups and religions, there certainly was no unifying Palestinian identity.

>They had a Pan-Arab identity, but not a Palestinian identity.
This is a gross over-simplification. From the late 1800s to WW1 the urban educated classes began discussing what it meant to be Palestinian. Although Ottomanism remained a large part of their thinking, WW1 completely reversed that and the broader population developed a better sense of their own identity. It would be a mistake to assume that the seeds of Palestinian identity at this point was simply Pan-Arabism. The increasing number of Jews coming to Palestine prior to WW1 and the concept of Zionism was an important factor in the development of this early 'Palestinian' identification, but not the sole reason for it's creation. In fact, early opposition to Zionism in the early decades of the 20th century could be separated along the lines of Ottoman loyalism, Palestinian patriotism and Arab nationalism. You're confusing the last two to such an extent that you're disregarding half a century of history prior to the 1964 Charter, which were the formative years of what we would come to know as a Palestinian identity.