Catalonia

What's the difference between the megapoll and a referendum? Why is it non binding?

You do realize that's propaganda, right?

Like the megapoll was done for 2 reasons
1) To not be persecuted for sedition as "it was just a question" (it failed)
2) To collect data and to know how strong was his postition and leverage power
Mas himself has admitted multiple times that Catalonia is not ready to be a country or should never be one.Him pushing independentism was a massive blunder that destroyed his party (well that and corruption).

The real reason is that Spain is in a brutal austerity implemented by the right-wing government so we are seeing lots of unemployment and people are turning to radical left ideas including the leftist independence parties.

If we were not in this EU debt trap none of this would be happening

Read:
and
It probably speeded things up, but it was certainly not the main reason behind all of this.

>brutal austerity
Don't fall for the lies user

desu user
This all sounds like the Elite in Catalan are playing a nationalist drunk population so they can get more power.
Hope they get bashed in at the end.

why doesn't spain just become like the UK? Make separate kingdoms for Castile, Aragon, and Andalusia

>This all sounds like the Elite in Catalan are playing a nationalist drunk population so they can get more power.
This is a comon patern almost everywhere.When Mas bid went too far the Catalan elite (traditionally CiU voters) fled the party and some have move out of the region with their companies.It is pretty sad how a bunch of people are ruinning their lifes for literally nothing.

It works if there's a culturally and economically dominant core for the other kingdoms to attach to, like England. There is no such authority in Spain.

A bunch of racist richfags that don't want to help out poorer parts of Spain

Thankfully no one supports their retarded nationalism so it should never be a thing

>why doesn't spain just become like the UK? Make separate kingdoms for Castile, Aragon, and Andalusia
That would just be dumb.Spain is way more decentralize than the UK alredy.Spain will federalize (currently is a just a weird mix of unitary state and concessions) or centralize in the future.I doubt the current system will be kept for much longer

Spain is far more devolved, and you guessed it based upon kingly borders

You forgot Belgium offering asylum whilst Occitannia doesn't

>after the loss of Cuba (which supplied most of the cottom to the textile industry)

You guys can fix that, you know. Don't be commies, take in any refugees, and we'll look the other way when you retake it.

t. American

one of the 3 wealthiest regions of spain is mad that they pay taxes and destroys their economy in an attempt to stop paying taxes.
1st world progresm and retarded idealistic bullshit.
>3% more taxes than the norm
>subsidising the rest of Spain
(You)

Catalonia's textile industry went bankrupt.It just morphed.Now the textile sector is in Galicia,Morocco,Brazil and Bangladesh

It's not really as significant as you think
First of the guy who said that is part of the flemish nationalist party, he's just trying to score points in flanders given there's a decent amount of secessionists overhere as well who are naturally sympathetic towards catalonia.
Secondly, the belgian federal law would have already allowed the asylum anyways because of it's rather permissive nature towards political dissidents regardless of where they come from.

You now realize that's most of the independence movements in the Americas, Asia and Africa.

not anymore lol

>I'm retarded: the post

thanks for dropping bait right off the bat user

It is just more stupid ethnic nationalism

Nationalism is what made Europe the leader of the world
The end of nationalism is what destroyed it

Yeah, but still...I mean, invasions of foreign territory always help national unity.

Plus, you've apparently got a 15 billion dollar defense budget. That's at least 10 times their's and is otherwise going to waste.

globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=spain
globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=cuba

why is spain such a failure?
you had a world empire
I mean even the frogs are doing better

I don't support Catalonia because they are leftist and supported by George Soros. Spain needs to hang the traitors before Soros gets away with another crime!

>1850 hadnatuonalism

pretty sure two world wars did that

the anglos destroyed it

>racist
but all of spain is barely distinguishable and the same race (except maybe for basques wich are pre-indoeuropean)

>except maybe for basques wich are pre-indoeuropean

What's their secret?

basques survived the romans because of their geography.
same reason Asturians survived the moors: mountains.

Basques colonized most of the Kingdom of Castile and the most common surname in Spain is of Basque origin. Basques being different is a huge meme created by Arana

Catalonia doesn't need international recognition nor will they get it for decades. It won't prevent it from existing.
The EU will still find a loophole to trade with it despite Spain getting an aneurysm.

>basques survived the romans because of their geography.

Did they use car bombings back then as well?

>EU
>Acknowledging any separatist state
>Catalonia
>Surviving the economy suicide
They already lost like 700 companies, will lose the EU passaport game and will probably get fucked by Spain

they will probably keep the Spanish nationality, but their children wont
recognizion aside, the catalan republic isn't even formalized in any legal way

You are clueless m8. Currently the president of Catalonia is the vicepresident Soraya. They are not independent whatsoever.

Would Catalonia be in this mess if they had the American 2nd Amendment?

>Would Catalonia be in this mess if they had the American 2nd Amendment?
If they shot at policemen Spain would just roll the tanks and consider CUP and ERC as possible terrorist organizations.Besides independentists are not a majority by any means.

They don't NEED to acknowledge it, retard. They don't acknowledge Taiwan either.

Taiwan is not European, mongoloid
The EU has absolutely no reason to trade with it, and trading with it would be acknowledging it

Plenty of countries trade with Switzerland and the EU doesn't acknowledge *them*.

t: SIDF

Neither of you understand what international acknowledgement is.

The EU wouldn't even touch with a foot long stick any separatist state in Europe, just allowing it exist is already a detriment for the EU, why would they ever trade with an imaginary Catalan state? It's not different than recognizing it

>random american in charge of US foreign policy
If Spain could annex Cuba, USA would have made them try it already

We can't officially tell you guys to do it. Plus it'd be a political liability if you fuck it up (no one wants Bay of Pigs 2).

But, shit, Thatcher took back Las Malvinas. If we give you the same treatment, looking the other way, why can't you reconquer your rightful New World clay?

burger what are you smoking the falklands were rightful british clay

And Cuba rightfully belongs to the United States who, by forfeit (after experiencing the shitpile of Puerto Rico), devolve it to the King of Spain.

He needs only dispatch the band of communist guerillas running the island and it would be his.

What? You think we'd force them to leave and reinstate Castro?

Even though SIDF analysis is right he makes a couple mistakes.

The Catalan nationalism (or regionalism) has been existing since the dissolution of the institutions in 1714; one of the 2 main focus of Carlism ( traditionalist Catholic anti-liberal movement) in Spain was Catalonia. The Bourgeoise nationalism is what was born with la renaixensa, however it's federalism exists since way before the loss of Cuba, I remind you that the only Catalan president of Spain and probably one of the best we ever had , Pi I Maragall ruled a federal republic.
I should also say that Cuba was never a cotton producing colony, Cuban plantations were sugar ones. The Catalan industrials always sided with the conservative parties due their protectionist policies.

Second, you talk about the inmersión lingüística as it is a problem, but I remind you it is being applied since 1983 and nobody ever had a. Complaint about it until the apparition of Ciudadanos 10 years ago.

Also remind you when CiU became independtists all of the sudden they lost a good amount of votes to ERC, so it was a bad move and it clearly show the Independence movement is older than the partys shift (Spanish media states it was created by the politicians)

I don't know where you come from but if you come from Spain you have quite a lucid view of the facts, normally Spaniards are biased af

They seem pretty happy with Kosovo, comparatively.

Laffing as Spaniards are completely incapable of holding their country together.

this is what 40% youth unemployment rate does to your country people

t. Jordi

If Catalonia leaves Basque country will follow for sure

>The Catalan nationalism (or regionalism) has been existing since the dissolution of the institutions in 1714
Simply false. There is no rebellion against Spain or anything close to that in the entire XVIII century. In fact Catalonia was one of the first regions to rebell against France and Napoleon and Cadiz courts had a Catalan president if I recall correctly. The idea of autonomy, federalism and independence come much later

> The idea of autonomy, federalism and independence come much later
it's posterior in the liberal terms, however in absolutism terms regionalism comes as far from Cadiz.

Por otro lado, dentro del absolutismo y como una variante suya, hallamos a los provincialistas, que fue el nombre despectivo con que fueron conocidos los diputados realistas procedentes de la antigua Corona Catalanoaragonesa (Aragón, Cataluña, Valencia y Mallorca), que abogaban por la recuperación de los derechos administrativos y forales anteriores a la guerra de Sucesión (1702-1714). El grueso de la representación realista catalana fue un ejemplo de este último posicionamiento político, ya que mostró sus propias particularidades encaminadas a recuperar la tradición
constitucional anterior a 1714, pero siempre moviéndose dentro de los parámetros jurisdiccionales absolutistas.

Catalan Deputies
el resultado es de trece absolutistas, diez reformistas seis liberales y uno desconocido.

Spanish are the racists. They want to genocide Catalans and force their language out of schools.

>racists
but catalan isnt a race dumbfuck
>want to genocide catalans and force their language out of schools
but thats wrong

>Some nobles wanted their priviledges back
And the sky is blue. Mixing feudal priviledges with any kind of federalism or independentism is just missinterpreting history on purpose

>Hemos dejado de lado el matiz provincialista de los diputados catalanes, porque creemos que, aunque se manifiesta mayoritario entre los absolutistas, también lo hace de forma transversal en alguna de las votaciones de los liberales y reformistas (Aner, Capmany, Valle o Dou).
academia.edu/14066693/_Los_diputados_catalanes_en_las_Cortes_de_Cádiz_1810-1813_proceso_electoral_y_prosopografía_Manuscrits_revista_d_història_moderna_2013_vol._31_p._205-237

as I said; Federalism is a liberal idea which will come later in time. Independentism on the other hand won't appear until the late 19th century and won't be a mass phenomenon until the 30s.

> Mixing feudal priviledges with any kind of federalism or independentism is just missinterpreting history on purpose

I've never mixed federalism with regionalism.

Carlism didn't got much support in the first carlist war. It became way bigger in the second one

it shows a tendency tho

>cut social spendings
>triple payments of interests
thanks ECB

>Have to pay for unemployment benefits while revenue is going down
>Have to endebt the country
That is not austerity that is simply overspending. If the goverment had done smarter social policies (austrian bag, liberalization of employment and firing,remove the minimum wage) this situation would have never had happened but they chose to make plan E and keep overspending. Then PP did a mild reform and it was a shitshow. I hope Ciudadanos pushes for their measures that actually are well thought and reasonable as they have legislative power currently

T. Ramon

>not austerity

elconfidencial.com/amp/economia/2014-09-27/el-pago-por-intereses-de-la-deuda-supera-el-presupuesto-de-todos-los-ministerios_217092/

The euro is a shitshow and it's doomed to fail, if we have to blame someone lets blame the EU and the ECB.
Spanish politics have not much to do with the Spanish economic situation.

>Socialist rule for 2 decades
>They shove the most strict labour laws and unpayable benefits to all people
>People see this as normal
>Huge recession comes in
>Strict labour laws make firing impossible forcing companies that needed to restructure their company to declare bankruptcy
>Strict labour laws makes hiring nigh impossible
>A bunch of the population cannot enter the work market
>The goverment has to pay a shit tone of benefits while revenue drops
>On top of that they chose to waste billions of dollars on building stadiums in villages with 4000 people or fewer
Spain has the biggest grey market in Europe for a reason and it is a combination of unsustainable inmigration combined with a rigid labour law and a lot of benefits.
When PP tried to change this there was a shitstorm. Now with Ciudadanos in the game maybe and just maybe we would be headed to a modernization and restructure of the shitshow that is the social security system and the labour laws and costs of firing. Spain has a lot of potential but the roots of the economy are rotten

Btw user I like this discussion with you so if you want to we could discuss this using kik or discord or whatever

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