Greek or Roman?

Greek or Roman?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece_runestones
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks
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Both.

Greek. It went only rightful roman again when first the Crusaders and then the Rome-Seljuks took it over

Would Cato the Elder consider them Roman?

Neither.

>Degenerate Greek
>Jewish Religion
>Ruled by a monarch
>Vestal Fire gone out
No chance in hell

t.Osman

Same thing.

Greek ofc

Turkish by right of conquest.

fpbp

Both are just general ideas only legitimized by the amount of people who recognize them to be true.

All respected historians agree the Constantinian Empire of Byzantium was not Roman

>Burger education
No one ever call East Roman Empire - Greek Empire.

>Same thing

It was Greek. The Byzantine Empire was actually called the "Greek Empire" by contemporaries.
Just like the Holy Roman Empire was mostly German.

Neither Cato would have accepted the Roman Empire as being "Roman" because it had one-man-rule as its defining feature. Whereas Cato was firmly committed to the idea of the Republic. If you asked Cato, then Rome ended in 27 B.C. when Augustus took over and permanently cemented one-man-rule, turning the Senate into a glorified debate club.

And they are modern "europeans"

Greeks didnt get independence, the empire divided

>The Byzantine Empire was actually called the "Greek Empire" by contemporaries.

Only the HRE did that, and the Byzantines typically responded by referring to the HRE only as "The Empire of the Franks." If you asked the Seljuk turks or the Ottoman turks who they were fighting, they would have told you without hesitation that they were fighting "The Romans."

The French also called the "The Greek Empire".

What does France have to do with this?

>The Byzantine Empire was actually called the "Greek Empire" by contemporaries.
It was called that by the HRE itself
>Just like the Holy Roman Empire was mostly German.
The difference being that no inhabitants of the HRE referred to themselves as Romans and by the 16th century they were calling themselves "The German Nation" rather than the Holy Roman Empire

If the Frenchies also called them Greeks, them it was not only the HRE that did so.

Pop quiz. What city was capital of the Roman Empire after 330 AD, and where was this city located?

Tell me a little about the current Republic of Macedonia.

Rome, Italy.

Nope.

Which language did they speak? Latin or Greek?
Did they control the city of Rome?
Who held Italy?
Who did the Pontifex Maximus considered to be the Emperor?

>did they control Italy
>did they control the city of Rome

Everyone on ancient times considered them to be the roman empire so why would they care that 560 years later a bunch of pigskins and shitskins not considered them to be the roman empire?

Justinian =/= 1200AD

>Greek Empire

Will Durant literally called it like that in his renowned work "Age of Faith"

>Well user, am I Greek or Roman? Choose your words carefully.
What do ye say?

Fpbp

Tbh they were Greek but at one point all well educated romans know spoke greek
F.e. Septimius Severus

We can go greek tonight bb

Greek before Alexander. The cute time without wars for wars

They did hold the relevant parts of Italy up until the 11th century

Legally it was the Roman Empire. If the USA conquered Mexico and lost most of the mainland except Mexico, it would still legally be the United States even if culturally it would be a different entity.

You can dispute the cultural connections, that's fine, but those don't come in when it comes to legitimacy. And no, Ottomans aren't the rightful descendants of them. It's a claim that can be disputed by the Russians and Spanish anyway. By the time the Ottomans conquered the Balkans, the ERE was barely Byzantine let alone Roman, there's the dispute on whether ERE died in 1453 or 1204, since government legitimacy goes shaky when it splintered after the Papists took Constantinople.

Most "respected" historians know fuck all about Byzantium, and those that do are Byzantinists who consider the them Roman.

Yes, the kingdom of France which emerged out of the Frankish empire. Clue's in the name.

Greco-Roman.

in their declaration of Peter the great as emperor of Russia, the royal senate referred to the Byzantines as "the Greek monarchy". there was even a movement during Catherine's reign to revive the Byzantine empire based on the Greek orthodox minority in ottoman lands. It was called ""the Greek project".

Politically Roman, culturally and linguistically Greek

Obviously not, but Cato doesn't get to decide.

>Rome-Seljuks
Borderline science fiction and I mean that unironically. You can't "fanboy" your way into an identity.

How can you not be familiar with the term "Greco-Roman" and its myriad implications?

If Cato the elder can't say what is Roman, no one can. He is the greatest authority in "what is a proper Roman"

That's a lie though. Rome is just Greece on steroids and Byzantium is the former and then some. God knows what it would look like if it wasnt for the mudshits.

Greekified Helenized Romanized Greeks

Romans who spoke Greek.

I say both
It's still the same Empire but in Greek territory, but it can't be completely Roman

t. Varg

This

fpbp

Byzantine is an unique one, like a hybrid culture

You can't say they are completely Roman or Greek

I am a Greek

>If Cato the elder can't say what is Roman, no one can.

Cato existed during the Republican era where citizenship was generally limited to Italians. During the Empire period, that pretty much went out the window, especially after Caraculla declared that any free man (non-slave) living in the empire would now be considered a citizen as long as they paid taxes.

Godamit why is this so hard to understand? They were Greeks. Greeks living in the Roman Empire. These things are not mutually exclusive.

Greeks with a Roman State.

It's like if mainland America collapsed and the government moved to Puerto Rico.

>Roman Empire

>Capital is Constantinople, not Rome
>Dominant language is Greek, not Latin
>Christian, doesn't believe in polytheism

The Byzantine era is so fundamentally different from other periods of Roman history that it is difficult to say that it was still the same thing, even if it was a direct continuation of the Roman state.

and that is when people started calling themselves romans, that include greeks

i understand your point but they were roman citizens and the empire just divided, no one didnt get independence

Roman Empire's capital was changed a million times. It was Rome, Constantinople, Ravenna, Milan, and probably more that I can't think of right now

But nobody questions that, user. I think we're talking about completely different things here. You're arguing that those differences make it not the Roman Empire even though you acknowledge there's a direct continuation. I'm arguing that this direct continuation is the only thing that matters in deciding whether or not it was the Roman Empire. Cultures change over time, that doesn't mean it suddenly became a completely different state.

By that logic, the country in between Canada and Mexico isn't the United States, because the state we see there today is completely different from the one that was founded in 1776, in form of government, territorial makeup, ethnic makeup, religious and secular culture, and capital city. And eventually it might have a different majority language as well.

Probably the country that didn't get kicked out of the Latin League for embezzlement and corruption. So Italy/Rome.

this is what terrone actually believe

People did though. Western Europeans called it the Greek empire.

People trying to make all sorts of tenuous analogies are missing the point

If you want to make a case for the Byzantine Empire not actually being the Roman Empire, you have to make up some arbitrary cut-off point, but none of those cut-off points can be the state ceasing to be called the Roman Empire, or the citizens stopping referring to themselves as Romans, or most of their contemporaries stopping referring to them as Romans, because none of that happened

It just isn't a position that makes any sense apart from maybe in a retrospective historiographical context, but you'd be better saying "the Medieval Roman Empire" in that case

The ROMAN empire fell when ROME did.

It really is that simple

That's silly. The Roman empire was a vast territory, not 1 city.

Rome was a backwater village by the time the Western Empire fell, that's a dumb argument. Ravenna, Milan and Constantinople were the important cities.

And then, what about the periods where the Byzantines controlled Rome again? Was it magically Roman again, but only for those couple of centuries?

Heh, I've actually seen people argue that it was the Roman Empire until 476, the east was the Byzantine Empire, then when Justinian retakes Italy it becomes the Roman Empire again, then goes back to being Byzantium in 800

/thread

Fpbp

Arabs and then Ouzoi Turks (Seljuks and Ottomans) used the term Rum (Romans) for the east Romans (Byzantines - the Greek East).

The Latins and Franks used the term Greeks because of HRE mostly. For the same reason (politics, Roman legitimacy) the east Romans (Romaioi , Romioi) insisted to continue the usage of the word Roman for themselves. The West were simple Barbarians and the Rome (city) offsprings of the Roman pleb in the best case.

The east Romans (Romaioi , Romioi) spoke the Roman language (Romeika aka pure Greek) , lived in East Roman Empire's land (Greek lands especially after 800 AD) and acknowledged that their ancestors were Greeks.

The Norsemen who were in Varangian Guard (elite guard of the Roman Emperor/Vasileus) used the name Grikki/Grikkium (Greeks) for east Romans.
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece_runestones
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian_Guard
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks

B*lgarian

Gr*eks

Except for the fact that the Roman empire was legally split into two parts. With Constantinople being the capital of one of those halves

Graeco-Roman.

Greeks who got rekt by the true descendants of Roman a.k.a Italians

Based Heraclius officially solidified it as a Greek empire.

too fucking deep

Romans.

Greek LARPers.

Um no sweetie. The Byzantine considered themselves Roman for most of their existence. It wasn't until the very end of their existence that some Greek identity formed. To call them empire of Greeks was an insult to them.